Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom

[Jim]

Have you said everything you wanted to say about the flow of knowledge?

For the moment, I suppose I have. We might discuss Spiral Dynamics, I suppose. I am not sure that it connects quite right now.

That sounds interesting to me. I would like it if you would talk about that.

It seems to me that to heal grief is one of the most pure manifestations of the sacred, which some people call the divine.

It meant a lot to me to see you saying that. Is there anything you could tell me about your online or offline response to the grief associated with the internal conflicts in religions, including your own? I have stories I’d like to tell, if I could find someone to tell them to.

I’m so, so happy with what I think I’ve learned in this discussion, about Dharma and about the Sacred. Better than what I was wishing and hoping for, far beyond my wildest dreams of what might be possible. Like my whole house has been picked up by a tornado and carried to the land of Oz. I saw the Wizard in a new light too.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi, Tony.

To avoid anarchy, submission to core Laws and Moral guidance is imperative.

Anarchy, like so much else, is only harmful when it rises above certain levels. A measure of it - not even necessarily a small one - can easily be healthy, even badly needed. The specific situation must be considered.

As for morality, it is not much of a consensus that the best way of attaining or maintaining it involves submission to rules or guidance (aka Deontology).

If anything, it is generally perceived (in my opinion quite correctly) as a decidedly inferior path when compared to Utilitarianism or Virtue Ethics, both of which involve challenging tradition and law at least a bit.

Freedom of view outside the Laws and Moral Guidance must be balanced with these.

Under very specific circunstances, sure. Not nearly so much generally.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg , @Jim , I am well aware that the Bahai Faith claims to be a successor to, among other doctrines, Hinduism and Buddhism.

I realize that the Bahai way is more oriented towards respecting those traditions than necessarily borrowing ideas and concepts from them. And of course there will be variations in emphasis and perspective even inside the Faith.

Even then, would either of you have anything to say about how, if at all, the idea of Dharma is mentioned in the Bahai teachings?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anarchy, like so much else, is only harmful when it rises above certain levels. A measure of it - not even necessarily a small one - can easily be healthy, even badly needed. The specific situation must be considere

That os the key to life, finding the balance between Light and Darkness. Some in this pursuit are more drawn to the light and some towards the dark.

Most interestingly this world needs both, or we have no choice of balance and I see this is where the balance has been given by God. The balance is Gods Messengers for each age.

It is seen it in this Biblical passage;

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This then becomes the sword that separates people and families, as also told in the Bible.

I see that In this age we are asked to see beyond all darkness and find the light in all people. There is to be no more war or hate.

Its a work in progress.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas Did you see this post? Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom If you don’t want to respond to it, it’s okay. I just want to be sure you didn’t miss it.

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas I’m also wondering if you saw this one: Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg , @Jim , I am well aware that the Bahai Faith claims to be a successor to, among other doctrines, Hinduism and Buddhism.

I realize that the Bahai way is more oriented towards respecting those traditions than necessarily borrowing ideas and concepts from them. And of course there will be variations in emphasis and perspective even inside the Faith.

Even then, would either of you have anything to say about how, if at all, the idea of Dharma is mentioned in the Bahai teachings?

I would be talking from mostly ignorance of Dharma.

My small look at it showed me there was no single translation that can explain its diversity in practive and in thought.

My current thought is that it is all embracing. People spend their lives studying this aspect of their Faith and all I can do is see it in what I practice, thus we must always be open to learning more.

What do you see in this explanation;

"...The root of the word dharma is "dhri", which means "to support, hold, or bear". It is the thing that regulates the course of change by not participating in change, but that principle which remains constant.."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Even then, would either of you have anything to say about how, if at all, the idea of Dharma is m

I would be talking from mostly ignorance of Dharma.

My small look at it showed me there was no single translation that can explain its diversity in practive and in thought.

My current thought is that it is all embracing. People spend their lives studying this aspect of their Faith and all I can do is see it in what I practice, thus we must always be open to learning more.

What do you see in this explanation;

"...The root of the word dharma is "dhri", which means "to support, hold, or bear". It is the thing that regulates the course of change by not participating in change, but that principle which remains constant.."

Regards Tony

While I was thinking of that quote I posted to you for your ideas, this just came to mind as well, Baha'u'llah offered;

"..This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures...."

When I think if the two together, I see it gives me other thoughts. By holding to the changeless Faith of God Does it not mean we accept God from His First Message right up to the last Message. The change is the world around us, a world that does not distract us from the purpose.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas This discussion has been a gift to me that keeps on giving. “Je n’en reviens pas!” (I’m not coming back from it!) If I were a hugger I would give you a hug that might break your bones! (Not to say your back. ) Wave after wave of new insights. Just now I posted something in my thread about Baha’i views of the Baha’i Faith, and then I saw it as possibly very relevant here. It’s from a message to all Baha’is, from the House of Justice:

“... the accelerating breakdown in social order calls out desperately for the religious spirit to be freed from the shackles that have so far prevented it from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable.“

 

[Thief]

The non-theistic variety, of course.

well....a religion that has no God.....

would that be a social order?
rather than religion

 

[Jim]

well....a religion that has no God.....

would that be a social order?
rather than religion

Not “a” religion. Just, tout simplement, religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

well....a religion that has no God.....

would that be a social order?
rather than religion

By your aesthetical perception, probably.

Not by mine.

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas In the scriptures is there ever any mention of anything behind or beyond Dharma?

 

[Thief]

Not “a” religion. Just, tout simplement, religion.

in another thread....the definition was sought

it seems the everyday use......
it's what you do because you believe in a god

if your practice is not aimed at a god....it's not a religion
it's a social thing

there are four motivations

one (assuming a belief in a god)
someone will stand to a pulpit and try to convince you
God wants you to........

two....politics
someone will stand to a podium and try to convince you....
I have a plan
I have a dream

three is military
someone in a uniform will insist
you will comply or be shot

last but not least.....money
there is profit for me.....a paycheck for you
and the time clock is over there

 

[LuisDantas]

@LuisDantas In the scriptures is there ever any mention of anything behind or beyond Dharma?

I am not 100% certain of understanding your question, but there was at least one time when it was questioned whether Tantra and Sutra (which probably qualifies as scripture) were compatible ways. The answer was eventually that yes, they were.

 

[Jim]

... would either of you have anything to say about how, if at all, the idea of Dharma is mentioned in the Bahai teachings?

From what I've read about Dharma, from the way I've seen that word being used here, from my study of Baha'i scriptures, and from my experience and the experiences I've seen people describing here. it looks to me like the word for Dharma in Baha'i scriptures is "religion."

 

[Jim]

I am not 100% certain of understanding your question, but there was at least one time when it was questioned whether Tantra and Sutra (which probably qualifies as scripture) were compatible ways. The answer was eventually that yes, they were.

Is there anything in Buddhist and Hindu scriptures about a source or origin of Dharma, or something supporting or sustaining it, making it what it is, or something behind or beyond it, inaccessible to us?

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas Like I said, this discussion is a gift to me that keeps on giving.

I would like to learn as much as I can from you in any discussion between us, that you're willing to help me learn, and I would like you to find some encouragement and support in any discussion between us, for whatever good you're doing, trying to do, or hoping to do, online and offline.

In my thread about diverging views of Baha'is about their religion, I've said that one Baha'i Faith I see is the community of people recognized as members by Baha'i institutions; one is people learning to love, trust and follow Baha'u'llah; and some others are whatever beliefs, values, principles and practices each person thinks of as "the Baha'i Faith. When you started this discussion, I was thinking of the conflict as being between the first two of those, but I don't think that's where most of the grief comes from. I think it comes more from the clash between the others, the different belief systems. The online feuding between Baha'is is between some of the ones whose Baha'i Faith includes never disagreeing openly with the House of Justice, and some of the ones whose Baha'i Faith includes what they think of as liberal, enlightenment, modern or postmodern values.

 

[Jim]

Even then, would either of you have anything to say about how, if at all, the idea of Dharma is mentioned in the Bahai teachings?

How did I not think of this before? We call it "learning to know and love God." It includes service to others and to community as a way of worshiping God. I think we would say service to family, community, or society, where in dharma terms people sometimes say duties.

 

[Jim]

(from another thread)

A bit more of familiarity shows that Bahais are very much Abrahamic in their doctrine, and brings questions about how much ability to understand non-Abrahamic perspectives it has or seeks.

That looks to me like it might be coming from a false, depreciating view of the world community of followers of Baha’u’llah. Thinking about that ended in me wanting to know more about your views. Specifically what I’m wondering about now are your views about spiritual teachers, and your attitude towards other people’s spiritual teachers and their followers.