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So Jesus is not God?

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

Understanding the Biblical Doctrine

of the Trinity (Godhead)

By Cooper P. Abrams, III
)Sic)"...The biblical term "Godhead" (theiotes) is used three times in Scripture, Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. The word “Trinity," which is the theological word Christians use to refer to the Godhead, is not found in Scripture.

· "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:29).

· "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20)

· "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9)

The doctrine states that the Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, consists of three distinct Persons, yet these three are one God. There are many arguments espoused by those that deny the Trinity, but the most prevalent is: How can God be One God and at the same time be three Persons?

The problem with that question is that it is based in ignorance of what God has said about Himself. The Bible, the Word of God, plainly states the plurality of God and that God is One God. To accept His Word means to believe what God has revealed. The truth of the Trinity is a revealed truth that is established in the credibility of God Himself. ..." Continues in full Understanding the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity (Godhead)

An easy way to understand the trinity for those who choose to is to put it in human terms.
A man who is a husband, a father and an architect. Three different identities carried by one man.

 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
It can get frustrating can't it? Encountering Christians who do not accept the scriptures that teach Jesus was God.
I was quite concerned until I remembered there are denominations that teach that very contrary thing. That Jesus was not divine. That he was just a man sent by God. They're the Christadelphians and the Anabaptists. Those are but two I can think of.

I think it helps in Christian forums when a persons denominational affiliation, if they have one, is noted under their account when they post. It makes it easier to realize what parts of the Bible they are familiar with. And what parts their denomination chooses to ignore when teaching the scriptures.

This is a very good article, in my view, that relates how early Christian writings also taught that Jesus was God. Not forgetting of course the Old Testament scripture that foretells the coming of the savior who would be named, Emmanuel, God with us. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore Adonai himself
will give you people a sign:
the young woman* will become pregnant,
bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El [God is with us].


As well as the NT scripture in Matthew 1:23 that again refers to Emmanuel as God with us.

Did the Earliest Christians Really Think Jesus Was God? One Important Example
December 11, 2014

TheresOnlyNow wrote……..It can get frustrating can't it? Encountering Christians who do not accept the scriptures that teach Jesus was God.

The Anointed……. There are no scriptures which teach that the man Jesus is God.

TheresOnlyNow wrote……..I was quite concerned until I remembered there are denominations that teach that very contrary thing. That Jesus was not divine. That he was just a man sent by God. They're the Christadelphians and the Anabaptists. Those are but two I can think of.

I think it helps in Christian forums when a persons denominational affiliation, if they have one, is noted under their account when they post. It makes it easier to realize what parts of the Bible they are familiar with. And what parts their denomination chooses to ignore when teaching the scriptures.


The Anointed……..Then what is your denomination, and why do you ignore the scriptures that prove beyond doubt that the man Jesus was not a god who became a man?

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; See Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

John 17: 11; HOLY Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me, etc. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 3:19; “Repent then and turn to God, (Not to Jesus, but to God) so that He (God) will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and He will send Jesus, who is the Messiah that he has already CHOSEN for you.” The man Jesus, was chosen and made both Lord and saviour by “Who I Am”.

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

The man Jesus was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is now incontestably divine.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

As the man Jesus came up from the baptismal waters of the Jordan, the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my Son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee,”

1st Timothy 1:1; “From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of “GOD OUR SAVIOUR” and Christ Jesus “OUR HOPE.”

John 14: 24; “And the word which you hear is not mine, but ‘THE’ Fathers who sent me. Not “MY Father” but THE Father of us all: “Our Father who is in heaven.”

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus, which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. _________________________It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (The Son of Man, the MOST HIGH in the creation) who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

John 20: 16-17; The resurrected Jesus, who was given divine glory by the God of our ancestors said to Mary Magdalene; "Do not hold onto me for I have not yet ascended to THE Father, but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to MY God and your God."
 
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TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
TheresOnlyNow wrote……..It can get frustrating can't it? Encountering Christians who do not accept the scriptures that teach Jesus was God.

The Anointed……. There are no scriptures which teach that the man Jesus is God.

TheresOnlyNow wrote……..I was quite concerned until I remembered there are denominations that teach that very contrary thing. That Jesus was not divine. That he was just a man sent by God. They're the Christadelphians and the Anabaptists. Those are but two I can think of.

I think it helps in Christian forums when a persons denominational affiliation, if they have one, is noted under their account when they post. It makes it easier to realize what parts of the Bible they are familiar with. And what parts their denomination chooses to ignore when teaching the scriptures.


The Anointed……..Then what is your denomination, and why do you ignore the scriptures that prove beyond doubt that the man Jesus was not a god who became a man?

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; See Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

John 17: 11; HOLY Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me, etc. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 3:19; “Repent then and turn to God, (Not to Jesus, but to God) so that He (God) will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and He will send Jesus, who is the Messiah that he has already CHOSEN for you.” The man Jesus, was chosen and made both Lord and saviour by “Who I Am”.

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

The man Jesus was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is now incontestably divine.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

As the man Jesus came up from the baptismal waters of the Jordan, the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my Son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee,”

1st Timothy 1:1; “From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of “GOD OUR SAVIOUR” and Christ Jesus “OUR HOPE.”

John 14: 24; “And the word which you hear is not mine, but ‘THE’ Fathers who sent me. Not “MY Father” but THE Father of us all: “Our Father who is in heaven.”

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus, which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. _________________________It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (The Son of Man, the MOST HIGH in the creation) who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

Jesus was God

2Timothy4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Old Testament Prophecies of Jesus
44 Predictions of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
(Sic)..."In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death."



A person or denomination that does not believe the teachings of God about Jesus' divinity has the wrong Jesus. And are not then within the covenant of the Savior Messiah Jesus.
Those who deny The Word shall be condemned by The Word.

Matthew 12:37
“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Jesus was God

2Timothy4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Old Testament Prophecies of Jesus
44 Predictions of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ



Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"
(Sic)..."In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death."


A person or denomination that does not believe the teachings of God about Jesus' divinity has the wrong Jesus. And are not then within the covenant of the Savior Messiah Jesus.
Those who deny The Word shall be condemned by The Word.

Matthew 12:37

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”

TheresOnlyNow wrote...… 2Timothy4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

The Anointed...…. I suppose you are referring to those people who have been deceived into believing that Jesus was once an eternal god, who pre-existed the creation of the Cosmos, and who, some 2,000 years ago, came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed virgin, where he created for himself a humanlike body, which was not of the seed of Adam, as all human beings are, in which humanlike body he could walk the earth disguised as a human being.


TheresOnlyNow wrote...…The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death."

The Anointed...…. We all must die once then go off into judgement, and we all are held accountable for the sins of our flesh.


Just as Mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution, developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, over who we now hold dominion, so too, 'The Son of Man" who is still currently developing within the body of mankind, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is the only one who can pay the penalty for the sins of the flesh in which he developed.

It is HE, who in the heights of time, cried out to our Father the Most High in the creation whose throne, the Son of Man inherits, "You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me etc, that body was the man Jesus, who was filled with the spirit of our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man.' as he came up out of the baptismal waters of the Jordan, and the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, [My chosen heir] this day [The day of his baptism] I have begotten thee.

TheresOnlyNow wrote...….. A person or denomination that does not believe the teachings about Jesus' divinity has the wrong Jesus. And are not then within the covenant of the savior Messiah Jesus.
In the days of the Apostle Paul, the people were already beginning to fall away from the truth, and following another gospel that was not taught by the word of God or the apostles.

In his 2nd letter to the Corinthians 11: 4; Paul says, “You gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit (The Lie) and a gospel completely different from the spirit (Of Truth) and the gospel you received from us.”

So, what was that other gospel that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ, that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will. Even in the later days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to rear its ugly head, and concerning that evolving falsehood, John had this to say.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit [teachings] they have come from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.”

Where would one expect to find the teaching that Jesus was not a true human being, “Born of the seed of Adam” which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out. But still, there persisted the belief that their Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and excretion, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” Satan must have had some trouble trying to tempt this false Jesus of theirs into turning stones into bread.

Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the authorities of Emperor Constantine’s universal church, used as one of their authorities when trying to defend their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clements life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established and the heads of the gullible are as mixed up and set as hard as concrete that one would need a sledge Hammer to crack that concrete and let the light of truth shine in..

 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Well I do believe that Jesus is God, but I think we need to be very careful at what we are actually looking at in the Bible to pull out the correct answers to this. God does not actually force Jesus to die for the sins of the world, he willing (Being God) chose to become man so that he could die for us and that way who so ever believes in him and trusts in the lord Jesus Christ will be Saved. But this is not necessarily what were talking about. To answer your question I guess that we need to get all the facts straight. The only reason that God was able to die for the sins of the world was because he was sinless and perfect. So if Jesus was not God and was just a man then he would have to be perfect to be able to take away the sins of the world. But we all know that nobody is perfect in the way they live their life. Yes their are very nice people who may never shout or yell at you or try to hurt you, but the truth is that they have all sinned at one time or other. And even if some one could in fact live a perfect life they would still have inherited a sin nature when they are born so really the only person left to turn to who was sinless and perfect, is Jesus Christ.

Incorrect, Jesus lost his temper. He was not perfect.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Incorrect, Jesus lost his temper. He was not perfect.
Jesus was the son of man and the son of God.
God lost his temper in the OT.
Jesus lost his temper because fellow Jews were exchanging Hebrew coin for Roman money before his father's house. This so as to buy animals for sin sacrifice under Roman law.
The Hebrew temple in Jerusalem and all territories where Rome ruled existed because the elders paid a duty to the Roman government for the privilege to operate unencumbered.

This is why before Passover the elders had to beseech Rome to execute Jesus for their claim of blasphemy. Wherein Jesus had imparted to them he was God, the Messiah, the son of God.
Otherwise, if the Jews and elders were able to execute sentence per God's law for offenses they would have likely stoned Jesus to death for that offense.
Roman law precluded this.
That is why Jesus had to be brought to Pilate to see if Jesus had committed any offenses against Roman law.
He had not done this. Because when asked about the teachings regarding his kingdom, the implication being he could be teaching sedition against Rome in claiming he was a ruler on earth himself and therefore an enemy of Caesar, Jesus assured Pilate his kingdom was not of this world.
Which told Pilate there was no threat to Caesar.
Pilate then thought to release Jesus without causing rebellion among the Jews who called for Jesus murder.
Allowing the gathered people to elect whom would be set free. Which was a tradition just before Passover that Rome had practiced so as to release a condemned Jewish prisoner at the "vote" of the Jews gathered.
But what Pilate did not know was that the temple elders had stacked the deck sort of speak. Which is why there were Jews gathered calling in majority for a zealot and rebel against Rome, Barabbas, to be released. Which would mean Jesus would be executed.

Jesus threatened the authority of the temple elders. After all, if Messiah were acknowledged by those empowered over the lay persons in the temple congregation, the elders would lose their power and the Messiah's teachings, new covenant, would be installed. Giving power to God. Not to the men that prosecuted God's laws as they saw fit.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
TheresOnlyNow wrote...… 2Timothy4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

The Anointed...…. I suppose you are referring to those people who have been deceived into believing that Jesus was once an eternal god, who pre-existed the creation of the Cosmos, and who, some 2,000 years ago, came down to earth and entered the womb of some supposed virgin, where he created for himself a humanlike body, which was not of the seed of Adam, as all human beings are, in which humanlike body he could walk the earth disguised as a human being.

TheresOnlyNow wrote...…The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death."


The Anointed...…. We all must die once then go off into judgement, and we all are held accountable for the sins of our flesh.

Just as Mankind, who stands on the top rung of the ladder of evolution, developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, over who we now hold dominion, so too, 'The Son of Man" who is still currently developing within the body of mankind, according to our concept of one directional linear time, is the only one who can pay the penalty for the sins of the flesh in which he developed.

It is HE, who in the heights of time, cried out to our Father the Most High in the creation whose throne, the Son of Man inherits, "You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me etc, that body was the man Jesus, who was filled with the spirit of our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man.' as he came up out of the baptismal waters of the Jordan, and the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, [My chosen heir] this day [The day of his baptism] I have begotten thee.

TheresOnlyNow wrote...….. A person or denomination that does not believe the teachings about Jesus' divinity has the wrong Jesus. And are not then within the covenant of the savior Messiah Jesus.

In the days of the Apostle Paul, the people were already beginning to fall away from the truth, and following another gospel that was not taught by the word of God or the apostles.

In his 2nd letter to the Corinthians 11: 4; Paul says, “You gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit (The Lie) and a gospel completely different from the spirit (Of Truth) and the gospel you received from us.”

So, what was that other gospel that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ, that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will. Even in the later days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to rear its ugly head, and concerning that evolving falsehood, John had this to say.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit [teachings] they have come from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.”

Where would one expect to find the teaching that Jesus was not a true human being, “Born of the seed of Adam” which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

In Alexandria, by the second century, ‘Docetism,’ the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out. But still, there persisted the belief that their Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and excretion, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” Satan must have had some trouble trying to tempt this false Jesus of theirs into turning stones into bread.


Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the authorities of Emperor Constantine’s universal church, used as one of their authorities when trying to defend their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clements life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established and the heads of the gullible are as mixed up and set as hard as concrete that one would need a sledge Hammer to crack that concrete and let the light of truth shine in..
You can save yourself a lot of time and stand to be better understood if you would utilize the "quote" option on the toolbar when responding to any post. The quote function is found on the second row of icons. 4th icon from the left. That would be three down from the smiley face. Click that what looks like a paper with lines on it. A window will open. The first option is the quote function.
Prior to doing this, highlight the text in a foll reply which you would like to respond do. Then, as that highlight will remain there while you go to the toolbar, go to that quote function and click it. The quote brackets will appear around the highlighted text.
This makes it easier to read your replies to those parts of a members post you wish to address. Much easier than the trouble you are going to now, and the trouble it takes to differentiate a members remarks from your own.
Hope that helps. :)
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
You can save yourself a lot of time and stand to be better understood if you would utilize the "quote" option on the toolbar when responding to any post. The quote function is found on the second row of icons. 4th icon from the left. That would be three down from the smiley face. Click that what looks like a paper with lines on it. A window will open. The first option is the quote function.
Prior to doing this, highlight the text in a foll reply which you would like to respond do. Then, as that highlight will remain there while you go to the toolbar, go to that quote function and click it. The quote brackets will appear around the highlighted text.
This makes it easier to read your replies to those parts of a members post you wish to address. Much easier than the trouble you are going to now, and the trouble it takes to differentiate a members remarks from your own.
Hope that helps. :)

Thank you for the advice. Being 76 and not used to computers, other than using it as a word processor and filing system, I need all the help I can get.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Thank you for the advice. Being 76 and not used to computers, other than using it as a word processor and filing system, I need all the help I can get.
Not a problem.:) It is amazing how dumb a computer can make us feel isn't it?
And when it goes wonky how much control it has over those moments of our life when it stores so much stuff that we need.

I think if the world starts to go into Armageddon stage, the Amish will have the last laugh.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Not a problem.:) It is amazing how dumb a computer can make us feel isn't it?
And when it goes wonky how much control it has over those moments of our life when it stores so much stuff that we need.

I think if the world starts to go into Armageddon stage, the Amish will have the last laugh.

As long as my internal computer keeps working, I'll be right.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You said no theologian acknowledged that the Trinity doctrine was a nonsense. Yet plainly they do.They just use a different expression, 'a mystery in the strict sense'

I’m still waiting for the quote Blü…the one where the theologian states it’s ‘nonsense” or ‘incoherent’. If I’m not mistaken you’ve injected your own conclusions into the mouths of Christian theologians and proudly announce your words as their own.

Jesus is fully God, not a third of God. Since he is fully God, there are no “thirds” to add

Of course there aren't. As I pointed out, if we were adding thirds, that would be coherent, and the Trinity doctrine is, as I showed you, acknowledged to be incoherent.

And as previously illustrated, we are not adding parts because there are no parts. Fully God means they are not “part” of God. Since they are fully God we don’t add, we multiply.

The Trinity Doctrine has one God. There are no parts of God and no multiple Gods.The only way to divide God into parts or add other Gods is by changing the Doctrine itself.


There is only one God, not 3. That is the basic teaching of scripture and Trinity doctrine.

Correct. And that's where the incoherence arises. If I'm talking to Jesus I'm talking to 100% of God. The Ghost is not Jesus but if I'm talking to the Ghost, the Ghost is 100% of God. Neither Jesus nor the Ghost is the Father but if I'm talking to the Father I'm talking to 100% of God.

Correct, but not "of" God as in fractions, but "of" as in relationship as explained in my last post. IMO, it would be better to say the Spirit is 100% God rather than 100% "of" God for that very reason.

Hence the doctrine would be coherent if it agreed that 300% of God = 3 gods.

Nah. That's like saying the solution to any word problem is only coherent if we're allowed to add. Some solutions require addition, some division, some subtraction, and some multiplication.

Instead, if the solution is an incoherent sum (1+1+1=1) then the solution is incoherent ─

There is no "sum" in the Trinity Doctrine so anything following your "if" is not needed.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
A "mystery" as used in scripture is a revealed truth and I gave ample examples in my prior post:

Stay with the texts I quoted. They're both authoritative, and they make the point clearly ─ a mystery in the strict sense 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed'.

Scripture is authoritative but I don’t see the problem with the text you quoted. The key section here is “apart from revelation”.

The revelation is NOT from human reason, it is from God. Some mysteries remain HIDDEN even when revealed to those not called.

As to why this is so you can read 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 , 1 Corinthians 1: 22-25, 1 Corinthians 2: 9-16.

And the Trinity is such a mystery.

The Trinity doctrine is readily comprehensible to 1 billion people worldwide, and yet, for some reason, can appear totally incoherent to those who deny the Spirit.

Whereas, were it coherent, unaided human reason would have no trouble with it.

Surely you jest Blu!

God is incomprehensible to the human mind but that doesn't mean God is incoherent. The two are not the same.

Which underlines the point that you didn't reply to: when theologians say it's 'a mystery in the strict sense', what are they talking about? What aspect of the Trinity doctrine in your view cannot be known by unaided human reason?

Please spell that out for me.

That's a fair question.

As I’ve stated before God cannot be known by human reason. He is a mystery in the “strict sense”. Even after the revelation of God through the son, Jesus Christ, God remains incomprehensible to the human mind.

God remains incomprehensible to the human mind in this life and the next. When reading, definitions for terms like “mystery” are not enough. We should ask ourselves who is using the term and how the term was being used at the time. “Mystery” can mean many things, but at its root it’s simply something hidden. In scripture, mystery simply means a revealed truth. This true is not revealed apart from God (His Spirit, revelation).

Why did God feed the Israelites the way he did, with manna coming down from heaven? Why not entice a herd of cattle to stumble across them in the desert or command a forest of fig trees to sprout? Christ explains this was a precursor for his arrival, and he is the bread that comes from heaven and gives life to the world, and yet the Jews did nothing but grumble!

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me…41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”​

This is an excellent example of a mystery revealed, yet his listeners could not understand. Today, we still hear skeptics grumble in the exact same manner when they claim there is no mention of Jesus in the Tanakh.

I don’t want to get too far off topic here, but you appear to be reading “mystery” from a Catholic source. I am a Protestant Baptist who simply considers a mystery as a revealed truth. Catholics dive further and separate them into 3 distinct categories. At the risk of raising ire from my Catholic friends, I’ll explain my understanding of them here:

Natural mysteries: Those things seen all around us but can only be fully measured or identified by God. These include things like love and free will.

Wide mysteries: Hidden mysteries that once revealed pose no barrier to understanding, but could not have been understood without Spiritual revelation. The example I gave above, where Jesus explains he is the true manna from heaven is a good example.

Strict mysteries: those things that, even when revealed, lie beyond our ability to grasp. You can give mice detailed instructions on how to manufacture cheese, but at the end of the day such understandings are beyond them. Similarly there are things that will always lie beyond mankind’s ability to grasp, and as Augustine once remarked: “If you understood Him, it would not be God.”​

Anything further would simply get us into Vatican Councils, rationalism, and semi-rationalism which is far afield from thread theme.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’m still waiting for the quote Blü…the one where the theologian states it’s ‘nonsense” or ‘incoherent’.
No you're not ─ it's been on the table from the beginning: the Trinity doctrine is

a mystery in the strict sense in that it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed.

As I've already said, 1+1+1=1 is incoherent, and the statement above is an unequivocal admission of that.
And as previously illustrated, we are not adding parts because there are no parts. Fully God means they are not “part” of God. Since they are fully God we don’t add, we multiply.
Okay, I accept that the idea of multiplying three distinct persons together is incoherent, is gibberish. Nero x Bernie Madoff x Jerry Lewis = Donald Trump might work as a metaphor, but not as a coherent statement apart from that.

Besides, God could always be factorized into Father, Jesus, Ghost ─ would not be One and Indivisible. God / Jesus = Father x Ghost.

Only trouble is, the doctrine never mentions multiplication. It only describes addition.
The Trinity Doctrine has one God. There are no parts of God and no multiple Gods.The only way to divide God into parts or add other Gods is by changing the Doctrine itself.
That's an excellent idea. Not even you understand it, or the fact that it's avowedly incoherent, so ditching it for a coherent concept is long overdue.

It seems to me that most people in fact think of the Trinity as God as president of the board and Jesus as general manager and the Ghost as office gopher. It seems to work well enough ─ people pray to Jesus or to God (I don't know anyone who prays to the Ghost) ─ and it conforms neatly and coherently with the biblical statements of Jesus. It was fine for the first three centuries too. Time for a re-run?
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
No you're not ─ it's been on the table from the beginning: the Trinity doctrine is

a mystery in the strict sense in that it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed.

Then kindly tell us on what basis do you claim the Christian God is no mystery, how He became known to you without spiritual aid, and how you came to completely understand His ways and thoughts.

As I've already said, 1+1+1=1 is incoherent,

Well it certainly is bad math.

and the statement above is an unequivocal admission of that.

The “statement above” doesn’t say 1+1+1=1.

It is you…Blu…which states that, not the doctrine and not any church theologian. There’s no need to conflate your statements with those of Trinitarian scholars. What you think and what the Trinity Doctrine actually states are not one and the same.

Okay, I accept that the idea of multiplying three distinct persons together is incoherent, is gibberish. Nero x Bernie Madoff x Jerry Lewis = Donald Trump might work as a metaphor, but not as a coherent statement apart from that.

So you redid the math and the Trinity Doctrine is no longer 3 separate Gods but 4! How did you manage to get 4 separate people out of the Trinity Doctrine?

Will 5 be next?

Besides, God could always be factorized into Father, Jesus, Ghost ─ would not be One and Indivisible. God / Jesus = Father x Ghost.

Huh? I see a fraction on one side and a product on the other. The equation is unbalanced and incoherent.

Only trouble is, the doctrine never mentions multiplication. It only describes addition.

Actually, the doctrine mentions neither.

That's an excellent idea. Not even you understand it,

I understand the doctrine Blü. It’s been revealed through scripture and is readily comprehensible to the human mind. Any Trinitarian on this forum can explain the doctrine to you. But we make no claim of understanding the Godhead Itself. If I could explain God to you, I would not be explaining the Christian God.

or the fact that it's avowedly incoherent, so ditching it for a coherent concept is long overdue.

Fact? You present a fact not in evidence Blü.

We already have a biblical concept in the Trinity accepted by one billion people worldwide and ineffectively railed against for centuries. The real fact is that there are skeptics out there who can’t wrap their minds around a Triune God, but this is no reason to announce it “incoherent”.

Polynomial regression is incomprehensible to most kindergartners, but that doesn't make it incoherent.


It seems to me that most people in fact think of the Trinity as God as president of the board and Jesus as general manager and the Ghost as office gopher. It seems to work well enough ─ people pray to Jesus or to God (I don't know anyone who prays to the Ghost) ─ and it conforms neatly and coherently with the biblical statements of Jesus. It was fine for the first three centuries too. Time for a re-run?

Lol, As soon as I get some time I'll start that Trinity thread. :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is you…Blu…which states that, not the doctrine and not any church theologian.
There you go again, still evading the question I keep putting to you:

In your view, what exactly about the Trinity doctrine can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed ?

After all, those aren't my words. They're the words of Christian theologians.

What's the answer?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
There you go again,...

Well, we go again…2000 years and counting. I can't take credit myself.

...still evading the question I keep putting to you:

Or, perhaps more aptly, not understanding the answers we given. We'll try to fix that here.

.

In your view, what exactly about the Trinity doctrine can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed ?

I’ve already told you, but let’s break it down further so we can put to rest any form of “evasion”…

The Trinity doctrine is well established. Any Trinitarian will tell you that, in its basic form, there are three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases but one God. Each person is fully God, so there are no parts, but there is one God, so there is not three but one. So God cannot be fractionalized because there are no parts, and God cannot be added, because there is only one. We go where scriptural evidence leads, and this is what scripture tells us. So in order to change the doctrine you will have to change the scripture.

Skeptics have problems visualizing this because they only believe what they see, and they do not see that God is Spirit. I cannot make skeptics see what their eyes refuse to behold, but I can at least describe what I see, even though they refuse to believe it.

In the pagan world, the Gods were physical. They occupied (had place in space) and were subject to time in our universe. In the Arian world, God often had place in space. For example, Jehovah Witnesses long believed that God lived in the constellation Pleiades which they thought was the center of the universe. In the Christian world, God is Spirit and is beyond space and time. IMO, this is because the pagan gods were created from the mind of man, whereas the Christian God never was.

The Trinity doctrine describes a Deity we cannot fully comprehend, and this is where the mystery comes in. Any description I give you will not describe God. I can enumerate some of His qualities, I can tell you of some of the things He’s done and some of His plans, but this in no way describes the Christian God.

Previously I pointed out that describing God is akin to us describing our tax return to an amoeba. Those in the Spirit understand the analogy immediately, but again the skeptic has a problem because they cannot envisage anything greater than our selves. So even though described it is not seen because in the world of skeptics there is no such thing as the "Holy Spirit" described in scripture.

So if you were able to condescend into the world of amoebas, and even if you were to take on the form of an amoeba, and even if you were able to communicate with all the amoebas using the language of amoebas, there is no way the amoeba will fully understand you or your tax return even though you have revealed yourself and your tax return to the amoeba. It is simply beyond the amoeba’s comprehension. In other words, in the world of amoebas there is no such thing as a tax return, as in our plane there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit in the world of atheists and skeptics.

With this in mind we now come to your question. We will break your question down as well to be sure there is no form of “evasion”:

(continued)
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
what exactly about the Trinity doctrine can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation,...

This simply means mankind did not and could not have developed the Trinity doctrine on its own. It came from revelation and apart from this revelation, there is no revealing. The revelation came from God in the form of his written word, the bible, from the Incarnation known as Jesus Christ and through guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus stated he would send us a guide, or counselor. This guide would not eventually lead the church into apostasy as the heretics claim, but simply into more truth.Neither would His works be in vain, as other heretics claim, awaiting some johnny come later minister to guide them back or "restore" His truth. In fact, I believe God allows apostasy to flourish from time to time so that we might have a better (even though we could never have a full) understanding of Him.

However at no time does scripture tell us the body of Christ (the church) would become so diseased as to be "apostate", thus forcing the head (Jesus) to go off in search of a new body or church that he could attach his head to. Christ is already risen, and his body would never see decay, so there was never a diseased body in need of "restoration". Yet this is exactly the tale skeptics and many post Millerite religions attempt to sell Trinitarians on when they mention their distorted history concerning "Nicea".

...nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed ?
This is relatively simple and straight forward by simply asking ourselves: When was the last time someone measured God and gave His measurements?

We cannot and will never clearly demonstrate the power nor majesty of the Spirit in our laboratories. So even though God is revealed He is not and will never be demonstrated through human reason.

What's the answer?

See above.

At this point, if you need further clarification or contrast between the Triune God described by Trinitarians and Triad God you’ve worked so hard to ascribe us, I’m sure @The Anointed will be happy to fill in the gaps for you. He pretty much stated so here:

If you all understood the LOGOS/BRAHMAN God you would understand the triad being that is God.

Good luck with that.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
This simply means mankind did not and could not have developed the Trinity doctrine on its own. It came from revelation and apart from this revelation, there is no revealing. The revelation came from God in the form of his written word, the bible, from the Incarnation known as Jesus Christ and through guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus stated he would send us a guide, or counselor. This guide would not eventually lead the church into apostasy as the heretics claim, but simply into more truth.Neither would His works be in vain, as other heretics claim, awaiting some johnny come later minister to guide them back or "restore" His truth. In fact, I believe God allows apostasy to flourish from time to time so that we might have a better (even though we could never have a full) understanding of Him.

However at no time does scripture tell us the body of Christ (the church) would become so diseased as to be "apostate", thus forcing the head (Jesus) to go off in search of a new body or church that he could attach his head to. Christ is already risen, and his body would never see decay, so there was never a diseased body in need of "restoration". Yet this is exactly the tale skeptics and many post Millerite religions attempt to sell Trinitarians on when they mention their distorted history concerning "Nicea".


This is relatively simple and straight forward by simply asking ourselves: When was the last time someone measured God and gave His measurements?

We cannot and will never clearly demonstrate the power nor majesty of the Spirit in our laboratories. So even though God is revealed He is not and will never be demonstrated through human reason.



See above.

At this point, if you need further clarification or contrast between the Triune God described by Trinitarians and Triad God you’ve worked so hard to ascribe us, I’m sure @The Anointed will be happy to fill in the gaps for you. He pretty much stated so here:


Good luck with that.

The root to the word ‘Brahman’ originally meant ‘SPEECH,’ much the same as ‘The Logos’ means ‘WORD.”

Shabda Brahman From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ------ Shabda Brahman or Sabda-brahman or Nada brahmin means transcendental sound-----Shabda or sabda stands for word manifested by sound ('verbal') and such a word has innate power to convey a particular sense or meaning (Artha). According to the Nyaya and the Vaisheshika schools, Shabda means verbal testimony; to the Sanskrit grammarians, Yaska, Panini and Katyayana it meant a unit of language or speech or vac.

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

IMO Brahman and The Logos are one and the same being, the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end and which has become this seemingly material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] or God has become. The collective consciousness of all that it has become.

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void. The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.

Brahman and Logos are the essential divine reality of the universe: the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return.

Brahman and Logos are no respecters of man, they send their blessings on the righteous and the wicked alike, and send their disasters on the wicked and the righteous alike.

It is the Most High to develop within each successive generation of the universe, who enters into Brahman/Logos, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead to that particular universal body, with each body occupying it own particular position in Space-Time, and it is the Most High in the creation, (The Son of Man) who is our God and warns, those who are prepared to listen, of any approaching disaster.

The Hindu triad god is Brahman, who is all that exists, and in who, the Most High is Vishnu the Savior of who Krisna is an avatar or later manifestation, and it is Krishna, who, at the close of this period of universal activity, enters into Braham as the supreme Personality of Godhead to develop within this universal body, and Siva the destroyer, who is sometimes represented as a serpent, but Siva/Shiva destroys only in order to make way for the new.

To the Biblical believer, it is Christ, to whom all the righteous are gathered, (The Sheep) who enters into the Logos as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while Azazel, to whom all sin is ascribed, and to whom all those who have failed to achieve perfection are Gathered, and it is he, the multicelled Azazel, (The Goats) who is cast back into the refining fires of physical life again, in the eternal process of rebirths.

Our ancient ancestors expressed the belief that our scientists of today are just beginning to come to terms with, and that is, that following each “Big Bang” there comes the “Big Crunch,” when this universe is condensed once again, into the supposedly infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity from which it originated.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

“Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual” (1) – Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Johns Hopkins University (quote taken from “the mental universe)

A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the OBSERVER CREATES THE REALITY. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the UNIVERSE IS "MENTAL CONSTRUCTION" .

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)
 
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