1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured So Jesus is not God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Oeste, Dec 5, 2018 at 12:40 AM.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    816
    Ratings:
    +299
    Religion:
    Christian
    A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

    Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

    If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

    Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

    This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

    Thanks for playing!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,592
    Ratings:
    +2,035
    Religion:
    Christian
    Really?

    John 3:16...For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...."(NASB)

    And Jesus was willing to die for us; he wasn't forced to.

    Jehovah didn't provide a stranger as a sacrifice...it was His First-born Son! That is love for us!

    Did you ever read "The Turntable Bridge"?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    1,330
    Ratings:
    +618
    Religion:
    Radical Christian

    There is a range of belief about the "Godhead". An adult will allow others to find their own truth.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Getoknowislam

    Getoknowislam New Member

    Joined:
    Wednesday
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    Islam
    Hello brother . The Quran says: Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah (God) is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

    Adam was created with no mother nor father but Jesus without a father. Jesus is mentioned in the Quran 36 times and Mary 34 times ( the only woman mentioned by name in the entire Quran). Muhammad is only mentioned 4 times.

    Jesus is one of the mightiest messenger of God and you are not a muslim unless you believe in Jesus, Moses and all messenger of God. Tell me if you would like to know more about Islam. One god one message no sons.
     
  5. Getoknowislam

    Getoknowislam New Member

    Joined:
    Wednesday
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    Islam
    Begotten is inaccurate as most bibles removed that to replace with one and only (NIV). In the holy Quran, Chapter 112: Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

    Also, Jesus did not say or claim he is the only son, this was narrated by John. Jesus says: My father is greater than I. and then he says, my father is greater than all.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,592
    Ratings:
    +2,035
    Religion:
    Christian
    "The Turntable Bridge


    There once was a turntable bridge which spanned a large river. During most of the day, the bridge sat parallel with the banks of the river, to allow the ships to pass freely on both sides. But at certain times each day when a train was scheduled to cross, the bridge would be turned across the river, providing the trains safe passage.


    A switchman lived w/ his family in a small house on one side of the river. From there he operated the controls, to turn the bridge and lock it into place before each train crossed.


    One evening, as the switchman was waiting for the last train of the day to arrive, he gazed into the distance through the fading light and saw the train approaching. He grabbed the controls and waited until the train was within the prescribed distance when he would turn the bridge into position. He pressed the controls, the bridge turning, but to his horror he found that the locking mechanism didn’t work! If the bridge wasn't securely locked into position, it would wobble on both ends with the train's weight upon it, and the locomotive would then be pitched into the fast, onrushing river below. This was a passenger train; many people were aboard.


    He quickly left the controls, running across the bridge to the other side where there was a lever he could use to lock the tracks manually. It took great strength to operate this lever.


    He felt the rumble of the train coming. He took hold of the lever, braced his legs and pushed it forward to keep the mechanism locked. Many lives depended on this man’s strength. Then, coming from behind him, he heard a voice that made his blood run cold: “Daddy, where are you?” Here, his six-year-old son was coming across the bridge, looking for him!

    His first instinct was to cry out to his boy, “Run, run!” but he knew those little legs could never make it across the bridge in time. He realized he could let go of the lever to run, grab his son, and carry him to safety, but he would not be able to get back to the lever in time.

    **Either the people on the train, or his son, must die.**

    He took only a moment to make his decision. The train sped swiftly on its way. No one on the train was aware of the tiny, broken body thrown mercilessly into the river by the speeding train. Nor did they see the pitiful figure of a sobbing man, walking home slower than he had ever walked, to tell his wife how he had sacrificed their son, so that others might live.


    Now if you can comprehend the feelings that went through this man’s heart, you can begin to understand the feelings of our Heavenly Father, when He sacrificed His Son, in order to bridge the gap between us and eternal life. And how does He feel when we speed through life without ever thinking about what He did for us through His Son, Jesus Christ? Can there be any wonder that the earth quaked, and the skies grew dark, when His Son died?


    When was the last time, you thanked Him for that sacrifice?"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    6,117
    Ratings:
    +3,994
    Religion:
    Baha'i

    If we are really honest and believe in the Divine origins of Christianity through Christ, wouldn't it be better to see the reality of Jesus as a Divine mystery, incomprehensible to all except God? If we love God through our love for Jesus, then clarity comes to each of us in our own way if we are sincere.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My sister LuLu

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    22,881
    Ratings:
    +7,471
    Religion:
    Artist and Healer
    This says god sent his son not himself. John 3:16 (jn3:16)

    By sending is son not himself. Jn 4:14

    By sending his son jn 4:14

    Yes. I wouldnt be the person who told me to die for the prisoners. I am just doing my "father's" will. Jn 6:38

    But that's what jesus did. The son died for believers not his father jn 3:16: whoever believes

    Cause christ represents god. 1 Timothy 2:5

    Think of an interpreter. You have the source, the interpreter, and the target/person the person spoken to. The ethics of an into. is that he cannot change nor comment on the sources message to the target. He must relay in full meaning what his source says so his target would understand.

    The intp. acts as the source because whatever the target says to the intp. it's the source the target gets his message from not the intermediary or mediator. That doesn't invalidate the inportance of the intp. he is differently needed to convey the message. But he is not the source nor the target. He is an intermediary between the two.1 John 4:3

    God is the source gen 1:1
    Jesus the interpreter Hebrews 12:24
    Target are believers Romans 10:9-10 to believers

    Its very easy to understand. I think. Luke 24:45

    The love of God is IN jesus not jesus himself Romans 8:38-39

    I guess god will help you understand who his son is in relationship to himself, the father Psalm 119:73
     
    #8 Unveiled Artist, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:05 AM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018 at 6:55 AM
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Joel1

    Joel1 New Member

    Joined:
    Wednesday
    Messages:
    13
    Ratings:
    +0
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well I do believe that Jesus is God, but I think we need to be very careful at what we are actually looking at in the Bible to pull out the correct answers to this. God does not actually force Jesus to die for the sins of the world, he willing (Being God) chose to become man so that he could die for us and that way who so ever believes in him and trusts in the lord Jesus Christ will be Saved. But this is not necessarily what were talking about. To answer your question I guess that we need to get all the facts straight. The only reason that God was able to die for the sins of the world was because he was sinless and perfect. So if Jesus was not God and was just a man then he would have to be perfect to be able to take away the sins of the world. But we all know that nobody is perfect in the way they live their life. Yes their are very nice people who may never shout or yell at you or try to hurt you, but the truth is that they have all sinned at one time or other. And even if some one could in fact live a perfect life they would still have inherited a sin nature when they are born so really the only person left to turn to who was sinless and perfect, is Jesus Christ.
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,454
    Ratings:
    +3,235
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    It is answered in many ways including: The different religions, like yours, does not reflect a more universal relationship with humanity, and is in part a human view of God, and not an absolute true nature of God and the Revelation with humanity, or possibly there is no God(s), and the religions evolved as a part of the nature of being human,

    Your assumption that your view of God is the only way or else no alternatives.is up front in this post. The problem is first many different Christians do not share your view using the same scripture. Second, you are holding to an ancient tribal exclusive view of God, scripture and religion in a world of thousands of years of the diversity of humanity.

    Your weakest point is the history of Biblical scripture. In reality it evolved, edited, redacted and compiled by many with no evidence for the most part of original copy nor authorship.
     
    #10 shunyadragon, Dec 5, 2018 at 7:46 AM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018 at 7:54 AM
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,454
    Ratings:
    +3,235
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    You are faced with the same problems as the author of this thread. Accepting Jesus, Moses and the prophets is a plus, but this acceptance is only in the narrow constraints of Islamic belief. Your claims for Islam over all the other religions of the world does not have a factual basis, and does not reflect a universal view of God's relationship with human it beyond the narrow limits of Islamic beliefs. Islam also reflects an ancient tribal view of religion.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My sister LuLu

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    22,881
    Ratings:
    +7,471
    Religion:
    Artist and Healer
    @Oeste

    I figure it like this

    1. The interpreter is the source because the intp. cant speak for himself. (Trinitarian)

    2. The interpreter is the mediator, his own person between the source and target (non trinitarian)

    Both need the int. to relay the Message/Word
    But number l. Doesn't tell the difference between source and target; number 2 does.

    Either doesn't matter. The message/Word gets across just fine. Both from god.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My sister LuLu

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    22,881
    Ratings:
    +7,471
    Religion:
    Artist and Healer
    I honestly don't see the problem.
     
  14. Amanaki

    Amanaki The truth lay within you.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Ratings:
    +133
    Religion:
    Theravada Buddhism
    The OP question is actually very interesting. Is it possible that Jesus is God ?
    Yes ofcourse it is possible but maybe Jesus is only a part of God too? Can it be that to be able to teach Human beings the Christian path God had to come in person to be able to reach out? Can it be that Jesus is a part of God because Jesus cultivated up to Godhood when he was on earth?

    The question can be turned upside down but only when you look within you self will you find the answer :)
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,529
    Ratings:
    +994
    Religion:
    Catholic
    I agree. Jesus is God in solidarity with man before, for whatever reason, Jesus became a scapegoat for sin.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,893
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    It's a good point and notice how Jesus defines the greatest love.

    John 15:13
    greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

    So according to Jesus the greatest love is to die for your friends. Yet, we all know that God must have the greatest love of all. (1 John 4:8) So then when did God die for His friends?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1,893
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Faith is a gift from God. If God has caused you to believe that Jesus is God then that's a gift from God. Those who rely on worldly wisdom will not see or understand the truth. They suffer from unbelief. Let's face it; it's not easy to believe that God really came as a human being! But thanks to God anyone who does believe has been given that measure of faith.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. Oeste

    Oeste Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    816
    Ratings:
    +299
    Religion:
    Christian
    It doesn't matter if it was His son, grandson, or daughter.

    You are missing the inherent question...perhaps I was a bit too nuanced.

    The Warden did not consider dying himself. He considered someone else. It doesn't matter if this someone else is a stranger, a son, or a best friend.

    Is agape love when you consider giving your own life for someone, or is it better to ask (or convincing) someone else to die?

    Let's import another scripture, one mentioned by @74x12, to drive the question home:

    Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)

    Note the verse does not say: "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down someone else's life for one's friends."

    So (for the sake of argument) since Jesus is not God, is this a biblical example of "Do as I say, not as I do"?


    To be honest I don't think I had @Hockeycowboy, at least until you posted it here. It's a moving story though.

    In your example the switch man had a choice, sacrifice the train or sacrifice the child. But in the bible no such choice appears. The Father was never presented with a choice of saving humanity or saving His son, because His son was never in need of saving.
     
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    816
    Ratings:
    +299
    Religion:
    Christian
    I agree with you on this Adrian. I think at some point we'll all come to know God, but the idea that our finite minds can understand the infinite is nonsense. God and Christ will always have a measure of mystery to us.

    Even so I think we should undertake (or begin) our voyage to God. There are many false Gods, Christs, and prophets out there and no one likes to be deceived. In this, the scripture we have is an invaluable resource towards helping us separate truth from fiction.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    816
    Ratings:
    +299
    Religion:
    Christian
    On this we agree @shunyadragon. I believe scripture is a revelation of God, but I don't think anyone believes it is a complete revelation.

    Religion helps answer age old questions, like where did we come from? Why and how am I here? Is this all there is or is there more? What happens when I die? What happens when she or he dies? Why do we die? Does it really matter what I do, how I do it or whom I do it too? etc.

    Personally, I take solace in what I find in the bible. I know the results of others will vary.

    Not at all. Both views are evident. That my view is correct, or my view is incorrect. For purposes of this thread, we are assuming my view is incorrect. But simply stating Jesus is not God is insufficient. We must now show why it is correct. That's what we're attempting to do here.

    Guilty! I hold to what Christians commonly refer to as the Old and New Testaments, and no new scripture has been written in the last 2000 years.


    There are thousands of extant manuscripts which attest to the validity of scripture, but this is off thread theme. For now, I'd like to focus on Romans 5:8 and how we reconcile this with other verses under the premise "Jesus is not God".
     
Loading...