Wording the same thing differently will not make it any better. So far you have reworded the bible and reworded your position. You have yet to provide anything I have requested.
Show me exactly how screwed up the world is on some kind of actual scale, show me exactly why a good God and that world cannot coexist at the same time, and show me how you knew either one of the two.
You are simply being obtuse. I've provided facts, you simply ignore them. The fact that cancer exist being an obvious one. I am not talking about mans misbehavior, you could easily argue that is on us. But it isn't just about his creation. It's about his actions. Again, I have provided plenty of examples of the god of the old testament acting criminal by any modern definition.
I do not know how two tings could have a greater magnitude of difference concerning importance between the false belief that India would be better without the British (or even if it was actually true), and that death its self is conquerable. If you can't see it then I can't make it any simpler and will have to move on.
Have you ever seen a movie called the life of Brian? If so do you remember the what have the Romans ever done for us scene? Not comprehending the inability to do what you are demanding to be allowed to do (especially when it affects millions) was a pretty big flaw in Gandhi's entire position.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I simply pointed out that Gandhi also had some good ideas. He did. You cannot blame him for everything that follows in India.
But I would point out that a well fed slave still might prefer the life of a hungry freed man.
You did not restrict your claims to natural evil or gratuitous evil but it would not have made your argument right regardless. For your argument to work you must show that an actual world could be created with less suffering and evil that would still actualize as much belief in God while still retaining freewill. The "problem of evil" isn't really supported by the consensus of even atheist philosophers any longer.
2 additional points.
1. Without God you still have the same amount of suffering without any of the hope he provides. Your world view means Hitler and Billy Graham's ultimate fates are identical.
Who is claiming otherwise? The problem is that the hope you speak of is almost always coupled with apathy. And who cares about their fates? Their fate is irrelivent in a discussion about the truth.
And your argument is that an all powerful god couldn't create a better world? Seriously?
2. In my understanding of the bible Hell is eventual non-existence and no innocent child winds up there regardless. God only judges the response to the revelation received and our ability to process it.
So good children and bad children all end up with the same ultimate fate? What a tragedy.
Are you ever going to actually post what is in the actual bible, instead of the false bible you made up? He gave Adam and Eve freewill. If they did not have the capacity to disobey (which is what the analogy of the tree of knowledge) then they did not have freewill, no freewill no actual love. Apparently you prefer to be an automaton created by a tyrant God. Adam and Eve's climactic act of freewill was to disobey God even though he merely gave them 1 thing they were told not to do, God's climactic act of freewill was to pay the entire price to redeem a race of morally insane beings. Yet you blame God for the acts of men and deny him his actual act of redemption. I don't like the God you made up either.
A 2 year old is no automaton. But we don't give them access to a sharp knife or gun. This whole notion that freewill obfuscates any responsibility on gods part is silly. He knew what the outcome was and allowed it to happen. What kind of loving person does that to people he cares about?
Nothing you have said was contained in God's revelation.
Then why are you so obviously misrepresenting the bible? So far you have failed to state any formal argument (I actually know what the formal argument is your trying to make, but I can't get you to actually state it), and interpreted the bible contradictorily from every mainstream commentator in the last 2000 years.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. I am simply taking what the bible says god did in the old testament and applying the same morality most humans hold as important.
When your "mere atheism" sells a copy for every 100 copies of "mere Christianity" has sold I might take you seriously.
Brilliant response. This is called an appeal to tradition. It must be true because so many people believe it. A fallacy in debate.
I believe I already stated that his description as contained in the same texts by which we come to know of Christ at all, so yes the bible is the authoritative work upon which Christ's nature is revealed.
Do you also believe that parents who have children knowing they would break the rules (given for their own benefit) and require correction are evil? If so then we ought to all build little robots without freewill and quit producing them. Or perhaps that is a sin against the God of social Darwinism.
Why do you insist on twisting my words? There is a difference between parents who know their kids will require correction and god creating rules knowing they will be broken and then making the punishment eternal banishment.
The moral equivalent would be something closer to a parent kicking a kid out of their house at the age of 3 for stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. And yes, I would hold the parents responsible in that case, as would most any sane person.
Have you ever read the book your condemning? In the OT we are only taught about Sheol which merely means the grave or realm of the dead, in the NT we are told about a future resurrection where people are either sent to live with God in eternal contentment or Hell for eternal annihilation. No where does it have what you describe.
I give up, you apparently can't be bothered to even feign sincerity at this point. I will leave you to it.
My point was raising people from the dead is one of those miracles with minor consequence. Want a miracle? Change living peoples lives on a grand scale.
Small miracles never impressed me. They are too small for one who claims to be one with the all powerful creator of the universe.
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