Slavery is Freedom

[doppelganger]

Is there any freedom with God, even the indwelling spiritual one?

Nope. There's no freedom in a reality constructed from symbols. And since all reality is constructed from symbols . . .

 

[Random]

Nope. There's no freedom in a reality constructed from symbols. And since all reality is constructed from symbols . . .

Indeed, this is why Determinism makes the most sense to me.

 

[Ozzie]

Yep. You know who you are on your own to some extent, and therefore there are cracks in your doublethink.

If there is no freedom in a reality constructed entirely from symbols, how is that there can be cracks in doublethink? Aren't such cracks a chink in the logic of determinism?

(I have run ideas found in several posts together here).

 

[doppelganger]

If there is no freedom in a reality constructed entirely from symbols, how is that there can be cracks in doublethink? Aren't such cracks a chink in the logic of determinism?

(I have run ideas found in several posts together here).

There's freedom in non-reality, which isn't dependent on symbols. One can know one's "self" in a non-symbolic way. Indeed, it's the only real knowing one's self there is. But thinking about it or expressing it in language brings it into reality. Thus, meditation, transendence in moments of communion with nature, prayer, are epiphanous and unreal.

 

[Ozzie]

There's freedom in non-reality, which isn't dependent on symbols. One can know one's "self" in a non-symbolic way. Indeed, it's the only real knowing one's self there is. But thinking about it or expressing it in language brings it into reality. Thus, meditation, transendence in moments of communion with nature, prayer, are epiphanous and unreal.

LOL. That should get the dogs barking. I cant frubal you for some reason. You have very effectively described a dualism paradox.

 

[doppelganger]

What do you think Eisenhower meant by warning of the "spiritual" influence of the military-industrial complex?

 

[Random]

What do you think Eisenhower meant by warning of the "spiritual" influence of the military-industrial complex?

The maddened desire to create a state of perpetual unending war to facilitate the limitless power cull of the MIC. Modern people call this already achieved and implemented state the "War On Terror". The Military-Industrial Complex has consolidated its power by initiating a war that continues on forever and can never be won conclusively: I think this is what Eisenhower foresaw it would do eventually. The war is deliberately not "legit", it is a "work" meaning fixed and its continuance orchestrated to be indefinite.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In a successful manipulation of the mind the person is no longer saying the opposite of what he thinks but thinking the opposite of what is true. Thus, if for instance he has surrendered his independence and his integrity completely, if he experiences himself as a thing which belongs to the state, the party or the corporation, then two plus two are five, or "Slavery is Freedom," and he feels free because there is no longer any awareness of the discrepency between truth and falsehood. Specifically this applies to ideologies.

For what it's worth, the Stoic philosopher Epictetus taught essentially the same thing, and his teachings are historically connected to the earlier Cynics and Socratics.

 

[doppelganger]

There's a reason for that as well. More from Orwell:

I would argue that what constutes a "need" is also malleable, and that conspicuous consumption creates an expectation level rendering most people as living in poverty while at the same time creating yet another way (in addition to war) to create unecessary goods and use up surplus labor while at the same time creating the aura of entertainment necessary to placate the masses. Being in debt in a society where status and identity is based on one's ability to consume unnecessary goods creates an independent "end of the world" hysteria where one's employment is the difference between being a participant in that society whose presence is recognized as valuable based on what he owns, and being excluded from the fruits of that society and left, like the injured wildebeast, to protect itself and its offspring from predators as the herd moves on.

Consumerism creates a particularly useful form of hysteria.

Bump for relevance to recent discussions.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Nope. There's no freedom in a reality constructed from symbols. And since all reality is constructed from symbols . . .

Only if we define freedom in such a way that is absolute - that there is no "freedom" because there are some restrains to us because we are human beings and not gods. We think in symbols - some think by our nature as human beings (philosophers such as Heidegger and Gadamer believe this, for example), but that does not mean that we as human beings do not have the creative force to redefine, reorganize, and reinterpret symbols. That is, our freedom as human beings is restrained and defined by who we are as human beings.

 

[doppelganger]

That is, our freedom as human beings is restrained and defined by who we are as human beings.

The symbols have to stop being "real" to do that though. A "reality constructed from symbols" is a prison. If I see the bricks the walls are built from, I have a limited ability to rearrange them to open up new doors and windows. Those "following" me will likely find themselves in a new prison, however.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The symbols have to stop being "real" to do that though. A "reality constructed from symbols" is a prison. If I see the bricks the walls are built from, I have a limited ability to rearrange them to open up new doors and windows. Those "following" me will likely find themselves in a new prison, however.

Yeah, but it's a prison that we shape for ourselves. Gadamer and Heidegger both think (albeit a bit differently) that humans think in language - that's our prison, but many artists and poets have shaped it differently. We're quite free to manipulate the walls, break through them, and etc.

If language is a "prison" is like saying that we're imprisoned if the universe has boundaries. We may be imprisoned, but we've got plenty of room.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The symbols have to stop being "real" to do that though. A "reality constructed from symbols" is a prison. If I see the bricks the walls are built from, I have a limited ability to rearrange them to open up new doors and windows. Those "following" me will likely find themselves in a new prison, however.

Yes! I agree that some people will be imprisoned for life, by self-limitation or inability. But many are on the front-lines in art, music, and every other form of life pushing against the prison walls.

We're almost speaking in terms of Plato's cave.... some of us have made it out of this cave (prison) and try to lead people to the light...

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I like Eric Fromm's The True Believer. It fits well with Beatrice Bruteau's The Psychic Grid. Both illustrate how "believers" and "non-believers" get trapped in ideologies.

 

[Yerda]

Gadamer and Heidegger both think (albeit a bit differently) that humans think in language...

Thoughts are made of words?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thoughts are made of words?

Well, that's what Gadamer thought. There are some of us who can think without words, but I would say that would take a mathematical, musical, or artistic genius.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Thoughts are made of words?

Thought are often limited by words, according to The Tyranny of Words. (Didn't read very much of it.)

 

[doppelganger]

Thoughts are made of words?

They are made of symbols (of which words are one type). Gadamer hadn't read Temple Grandin.

 

[Sunstone]

Thoughts are made of words?

All conscious thought is symbolic. Words are symbols. So are images.

 

[sandandfoam]

All conscious thought is symbolic. Words are symbols. So are images.

I agree.
It raises the question though do we understand what we consciously think?