Situation Ethics

[Milton Platt]

Hi Milton Platt. How are you? No we don't believe in military service, and they are a number of Chr-stian groups that won't serve in the military. You saw what Yahshua said in Matthew 26:53 "Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?".

You are correct. Christians do not observe or agree uniformly on morality

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi Sunstone. What I am saying is that even when the situation may call for different ethics, those ethics should still be determined by the commandments in the Bible. As we know they are more that one commandment in the Bible, they are approximately 613 and within those laws are the means by which we can use to determine what we should do in any situation.

The situation ethics I refer to in the OP is abandoning the Law wholeheartedly - usually temporarily - to satisfy a specific situation.

There are plenty of those 613 laws that, IMO, should be abandoned permanently because they're an affront to actual ethics and morality.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Well, if you're talking about christians who are spiritual and not religious, to some degree you have a point. If it's just spiritual people who don't want to be religious, the bible is irrelevant. Also, any religion that tends to make people different than they are at a disadvantage is not a moral religion in my opinion.

I think many christian spiritual and not religious people just don't like "rituals/traditions/politics" as so they relate. They don't like the word. Spiritual people, if they were more mystic, would not need the bible to be a foundation of their faith because they would feel god talks to them directly without the need of scripture confirmation.

Anyone can be moral without god. Morality isn't a religious concept. It's one's internal sense of right and wrong shaped by the environment, laws, upbringing, and/or religion and community in which one lives. So, any religious who don't believe in god(s) will still have still have morals-they just wouldn't be biblical (or quranic or Dhamic or...).

Another way to see it is in order to fulfill a goal, you need more than motivation, intent, and emotion but the actual action, repetition (if so be), and some form of structure. So, yes. I agree. If someone really believes in god, they would have some form of religious practice or law according to scripture.

The only thing I disagree with is those who are spiritual and not religious aren't following the bible because they choose to define their religious actions in a manner not associated with a said religious tradition.

I'm sure there are many. Religion works for some but not for others; but, that doesn't mean they're not following scripture.

Hi Unveiled Artist. Good afternoon. I hope you are well. I understand that some people don't like the ritual and traditional aspect of religion. However, if we believe in an Almighty the next logical step is to consider they are instructions as to how we should live our life. What day we should rest on, if any. What days are special to Him, according to the calendar, whether we should go by the lunar calendar or solar calendar. What we should eat and what we shouldn't etc. All these things are perfectly normal considerations once we have established that there is a Creator. But you see this from my perspective too, which I'm grateful for, when you say:

"Another way to see it is in order to fulfill a goal, you need more than motivation, intent, and emotion but the actual action, repetition (if so be), and some form of structure. So, yes. I agree. If someone really believes in god, they would have some form of religious practice or law according to scripture."

You said "Anyone can be moral without god. Morality isn't a religious concept." Romans 2:14 and if you especially read it in context, explains that indeed gentiles or unbelievers can indeed be keeping at least some of the laws in the Bible, and they don't have to necessarily have been brought up near or with the Bible. They understand some of those laws because they have come to realise that this way of life is correct. You can see with common sense that the Laws are good. That's why atheists can and do do good things. It's why non-religious people can also do good things. They might realise that the Law is good although they might not accept the Bible. I'm hesistant to say people can be moral without Yahweh. The fullness of morality is contained in the Bible. However, people have and do obey certain aspects of the scriptures making them appear somewhat moral. James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all." so for religious people, we have to keep the full extent of the law to be moral.

I can speak for myself. If it wasn't for the Bible, I wouldn't be a good person. I would probably be in the world, doing my own thing, as 2 Timothy 3 describes "lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Yahweh". I know that the Bible has affected me morally.

The only thing I disagree with is those who are spiritual and not religious aren't following the bible because they choose to define their religious actions in a manner not associated with a said religious tradition. I'm sure there are many. Religion works for some but not for others; but, that doesn't mean they're not following scripture.

Without adhering to the fullness of the scriptures, we aren't being moral though. Who gets to decide what is right and wrong? Do we just have a loose code of morality by saying if something doesn't harm another it's ok to do? It's Yahweh and His Laws aren't just good, they're excellent. Even the holy days give us otherwise unteachable lessons so that we can improve our spiritual characters. It's true the Bible is not for everyone. That's why there is a Gehenna Fire. But each one of us is capable of following the way of life recorded in the Bible. Yahweh created us. He knows that we are able to attain to a spiritual and religious life.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I don't really see an ethical system in what you say you follow.

A list of rules <> an ethical system. Ethical systems are based on values; the best decision - or the range of allowable decisions - in a given situation will depend on the specifics of that situation.

IOW, all ethics are situational. If a code of conduct isn't situational, then it's not a system of ethics.

Good afternoon 9-10ths_Penguin. If Yahshua the Messiah applied situation ethics to his circumstance in Matthew 4:4, where Satan told a starving Yahshua that he should command stones to become bread, he would have done so and wouldn't have been our Messiah as he would have sinned. Situation ethics is a dangerous game and the true worshipper should try to stay far from it as it is a matter of our eternal salvation. Every situation we're up against we can find an answer in Yahweh's Word.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

situational morality graphicView attachment 39389
Reminds me of the portion where Paul states "show me your faith with your words and I will show you with my deeds.
anybody can say anything....doing it is another matter apparently.

Good afternoon MNoBody. There's nothing wrong with eating clean meats. That's one of the purposes they were created for.

 

[MNoBody]

Good afternoon MNoBody. There's nothing wrong with eating clean meats. That's one of the purposes they were created for.

i comprehend where you are coming from with that, however that wasn't the point of the graphic which shows the double standard people employ in their actions contrary to their words...[thanks for reminding me of that doctrinal item though.]

 

[IndigoChild5559]

James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all." so for religious people, we have to keep the full extent of the law to be moral.

This is one of Chrisitanity's greatest absurdities. If I swipe a piece of pizza, does that make me guilty of murder, adultery, theft, assault, perjury, etc.? Of course not!

 

[Valjean]

Hi Unveiled Artist. Good afternoon. I hope you are well. I understand that some people don't like the ritual and traditional aspect of religion. However, if we believe in an Almighty the next logical step is to consider they are instructions as to how we should live our life.

Why would that be the next logical step? Can you show your maths?
I don't see it as even a reasonable step. Why would a god concern himself with how we live our lives? This seems like a uniquely Abrahamic thing.

What day we should rest on, if any. What days are special to Him, according to the calendar, whether we should go by the lunar calendar or solar calendar. What we should eat and what we shouldn't etc. All these things are perfectly normal considerations once we have established that there is a Creator. But you see this from my perspective too, which I'm grateful for, when you say:

He sounds quite the obsessive. Why would he be so?
Why would these things be 'perfectly normal'? If that were the case wouldn't a similar obsessiveness be found in all religions' celestials?

"Another way to see it is in order to fulfill a goal, you need more than motivation, intent, and emotion but the actual action, repetition (if so be), and some form of structure. So, yes. I agree. If someone really believes in god, they would have some form of religious practice or law according to scripture."

Goal? Who's goal? God's? Man's? Must be man's -- as
the above list of attributes seems awfully .... human.
So what goals are we talking about?

You said "Anyone can be moral without god. Morality isn't a religious concept." Romans 2:14 and if you especially read it in context, explains that indeed gentiles or unbelievers can indeed be keeping at least some of the laws in the Bible, and they don't have to necessarily have been brought up near or with the Bible. They understand some of those laws because they have come to realise that this way of life is correct. You can see with common sense that the Laws are good.

Why would the biblical laws apply universally? Aren't the Mitzvot applicable primarily to the ancient, warlike tribes of the Middle East? What use would they be to a Trobriand islander or the San?
Question: Why do you keep citing the Bible? What about the moral precepts of Confucius or Hammurabi?

That's why atheists can and do do good things. It's why non-religious people can also do good things. They might realise that the Law is good although they might not accept the Bible. I'm hesistant to say people can be moral without Yahweh. The fullness of morality is contained in the Bible.

Quite a tall claim. The 613 Mitzvot and the very different Christian precepts are not universally useful. Many, in fact, seem counter-productive. Many would clash with current ideas of fairness, kindness and human rights.

I can speak for myself. If it wasn't for the Bible, I wouldn't be a good person. I would probably be in the world, doing my own thing, as 2 Timothy 3 describes "lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Yahweh". I know that the Bible has affected me morally.

yes, some people are born morally challenged, even sociopathic, but why force your disciplines on those who don't need them? Would you do that with your meds?

Without adhering to the fullness of the scriptures, we aren't being moral though. Who gets to decide what is right and wrong? Do we just have a loose code of morality by saying if something doesn't harm another it's ok to do? It's Yahweh and His Laws aren't just good, they're excellent. Even the holy days give us otherwise unteachable lessons so that we can improve our spiritual characters. It's true the Bible is not for everyone. That's why there is a Gehenna Fire. But each one of us is capable of following the way of life recorded in the Bible. Yahweh created us. He knows that we are able to attain to a spiritual and religious life.

Do you need a deontologic rule book to keep you in line? Do you still need an authoritarian, Strong-Father figure to keep you under control?

It's perfectly possible for people to analyze the likely results of their actions, and to tailor their actions to consequences. Blindly following an ancient set of rules, under threat of punishment, is infantile.

"lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Yahweh".

Money is a rare -- and new -- cultural feature.
Boastfulness? De rigeur in some cultures, practically unknown in others.
Unholy? What would that mean?
Fierce? A required feature in some cultures, and admired even among "Christian" cultures.
Parents? What do biological have to do with raising children? Hardly universal; not even necessarily Abrahamic.
Lovers of good?! What the heck is "good?" What's good varies widely -- culturaly, geographically and historically.
Traitors? Isn't treason decided by the victors? Weren't the US founding fathers egregious traitors to the man?
How about Gandi or the Scholls? Didn't Jesus hate patriotism -- and "countries?" What about Galations. 3:28, to cite your own life-script?
Sybarites? More the norm than the exception, wouldn't you say?

 

[Messianic Israelite]

There are plenty of those 613 laws that, IMO, should be abandoned permanently because they're an affront to actual ethics and morality.

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Good afternoon. I'm curious, which of these laws do you feel should be abandoned?

 

[Messianic Israelite]

This is one of Chrisitanity's greatest absurdities. If I swipe a piece of pizza, does that make me guilty of murder, adultery, theft, assault, perjury, etc.? Of course not!

Hi IndigoChild. Good afternoon. Yes it does, because the Law is part of one whole. Haven't you read the Law of Deuteronomy 25:15? It says: "A perfect and just weight shalt thou have; a perfect and just measure shalt thou have". Proverbs 11:1 also says: "A false balance is an abomination to Yahweh; But a just weight is his delight." We are that false balance unless we have respect to all the commandments (Psalm 119:6).

In James / Jacob it goes on "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law."

Leviticus 4:22 says that "When a ruler sinneth, and doeth unwittingly any one of all the things which Yahweh his Elohim hath commanded not to be done, and is guilty..." then he is to offer a sacrifice. It says 'any one of all these the things which Yahweh his Elohim commanded not to be done'. Again it comes through here that regardless of our sin, we are then guilty of that sin and have to offer a sacrifice.

They are many instances in the Hebrew Scriptures where the thought is that by violating one of the commandments, we are violating all. Here in Exodus 16:28 where the Sabbath Day was violated, Yahweh says "And Yahweh said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?". Here the words 'commandments' and 'laws' are plural. Sin seems to bring other sins to remembrance in Yahweh's sight also. Then I can also think of Ezekiel 18:24 which says " But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." Yes, I'm sure you can think of examples in the Hebrew Scriptures where people, prophets even, turned from their righteousness and did a sin and died because of it.

You have no doubt read 1 Kings 13. In it a man of Elohim who seemed to be keeping the commandments and had even worked a miracle for Yahweh disobeyed Yahweh and ate and drank at a prophet's house. The prophet cried to him " And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of Yahweh came unto the prophet that brought him back; 21 and he cried unto the man of Elohim that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith Yahweh, Forasmuch as thou hast been disobedient unto the mouth of Yahweh, and hast not kept the commandment which Yahweh your Elohim commanded thee, 22 but camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place of which he said to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy body shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers." When you read this story, it might seem somewhat harsh what happened to this man of Elohim, but not when you consider that if you transgress in one point of the Law we become guilty of all. This is why I cannot approve of the situation ethics that the world employs.

We are commanded in the Law to be perfect (Deuteronomy 18:13). That's why breaking any part of it makes us imperfect people. It makes us transgressors of the whole. The Law comes in a unit, a part of a whole, where each law should be valued and respected and each law is interconnected with the others. Maybe I'll start a thread on the subject of the interconnection of Yahweh's Laws in fact. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai and saw the Israelites committing idolatory, he didn't take out a pen and cross out one of the 1st or 2nd commandments on the tables of stone but he threw the entire tables of stone to the ground and destroyed them. As a result it is easy to see that Yahweh wants His people to strive for perfection and to be just and we can't be truly just or moral if we are violating any part of the Law.

Isaiah 33:22 says:
"For Yahweh is our judge, Yahweh is our lawgiver, Yahweh is our king; he will save us."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Good afternoon. I'm curious, which of these laws do you feel should be abandoned?

Off the top of my head:

- the one requiring that "witches" be killed.
- all the laws that permit slavery.
- the law requiring a rape victim to marry her attacker.

I'm sure I could find many others if I went through the list one-by-one.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The first definition which I have seen for the word ‘moral’ on the internet is: “concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour.” Can people who call themselves spiritual and do not adhere to the same principles in every situation be considered moral, or the same with atheists and even religious people. To go back to the example of the Good Samaritan, we as religious people are commanded to love our neighbour (Leviticus 19:18) so we should be helping out whenever we see a need as a matter of Law. Others don't have this obligation. Please discuss.

Righteous/just man is "a man of principles" that guide from inside (conscience). For an atheist they are natural law and common sense. For a theist also but all this is considered God given. Both can discover them, value them, perfect them in practice (virtues) but not invent them. Principles are universal and permanent. Revealed word of God is supposed to be the same Word/Wisdom through which all was made. The revealed word in Bible says: "The word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it." What is written is a tool helping to constantly remind you and make you more attentive and committed. That means to "tie" and "bind" these words. For people of Israel this is also part of their covenant but are all mitzvot universal principles (apply to all)?

What does it mean "justice is above (human) law"? Does this mean we need no outer rules? Ofcourse not. Legal system is supposed to apply and protect human rights like a fence around a house. There are also practical demands for making (and changing) agreements, rules, customs, laws ... This creates order in living together. Principles have priority and demand certain manner we do all things but they don't function lika a totalitarian system. Some decisions are a matter of choice and agreement. For example: What will we eat today - rice or pasta? Another example: in Catholic Church priestly celibate is just a church rule (not a God's law).

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Off the top of my head:

- the one requiring that "witches" be killed.
- all the laws that permit slavery.
- the law requiring a rape victim to marry her attacker.

I'm sure I could find many others if I went through the list one-by-one.

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Good afternoon. I don't have a problem with witches receiving the death penalty. Sorry, but I don't. Witches seek a demonic source to receive their power and this is deplorable. Some of them may not know what they are doing to the full extent, but they are indeed seeking magical skills and abilities in complete contrast to what the Bible teaches. We should be seeking holiness and righteousness, not a quick fix solution to life's problems.

In terms of laws that permit slavery, I believe slavery in Biblical times was a bit different from the chattel slavery we saw practised in (say) the American South. Some argue that in some cases the word "slave" is a mistranslation. For example, Hebrew slaves in Biblical times had many rights that slaves in the American South did not have, including the requirement that slaves are freed after 7 years of servitude. Slavery for the Israelites would be different for the slavery in other nations as we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves. This is Biblical law. It applies to everyone. This comes back again to the interconnection of Yahweh's Laws. Abraham for example would not have mistreated any slaves he had, he was keeping Torah.

In terms of the rapist marrying the rape victim, I think you should read this article:
Did Old Testament Law Force a Woman to Marry Her Rapist? - CBMW

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Good afternoon. I don't have a problem with witches receiving the death penalty. Sorry, but I don't. Witches seek a demonic source to receive their power and this is deplorable. Some of them may not know what they are doing to the full extent, but they are indeed seeking magical skills and abilities in complete contrast to what the Bible teaches. We should be seeking holiness and righteousness, not a quick fix solution to life's problems.

Nonsense. These sorts of laws are used as an excuse to murder women who speak out or otherwise annoy powerful men.

In terms of laws that permit slavery, I believe slavery in Biblical times was a bit different from the chattel slavery we saw practised in (say) the American South.

I don't care. Slavery in any form is immoral, even if you can think of a worse form of slavery.

Some argue that in some cases the word "slave" is a mistranslation. For example, Hebrew slaves in Biblical times had many rights that slaves in the American South did not have, including the requirement that slaves are freed after 7 years of servitude. Slavery for the Israelites would be different for the slavery in other nations as we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves. This is Biblical law. It applies to everyone. This comes back again to the interconnection of Yahweh's Laws. Abraham for example would not have mistreated any slaves he had, he was keeping Torah.

Please stop arguing that slavery is moral.

In terms of the rapist marrying the rape victim, I think you should read this article:
Did Old Testament Law Force a Woman to Marry Her Rapist? - CBMW

The article seems to be nonsense, but I'm glad you agree that rape victims should not have to marry their victims.