Sin and Repentance

[rosends]

No, I look at Muslim and Mormon claims via logic, the hypothesis method, and whether their claims and doctrines perfectly align with Tanakh. The NT aligns with Tanakh magnificently, pervasively, thoroughly.

No it doesn't. It makes the same errors that Muslim and Mormon texts do. You just don't want to see it.

12 teams of NT authors and scribes did so? They risked expulsion from synagogues and Jewish life, and Rome's persecution, to "explain" a false Messiah by independently citing hundreds of Tanakh passages? They made up stories that whether written early or very late, weren't confronted by Jewish contemporaries with counter claims? And then many thousands of Jews believed the stories and converted, risking expulsion from Jewish life and Roman martyrdom?

OK, yeah, sure. Sadly, there have been many false messianic figures and their followers have risked a whole lot to follow them. Why aren't you worshipping Shabtai Tzvi? Of course, your answer hinges on your buying into the historicity and authenticity of the gospels as early and accurate writings. Since I don't I see the authorship as less daunting than you portray it.

Put differently, the many facts cited by the writers prove 1st century authorship and even hardened atheist academics agree to 1st century dating of the NT.

No doubt this is subject to significantly more debate than you would like to admit to. Other threads have and will continue to address this.

Where are the counter documents written by Jews, "Yeshua of Galilee never did miracles, preached to thousands during Pesach and other festivals, I lived in Jerusalem and these things weren't done", etc? And most of the early converts were Jews.

You ask for documents to counter something that never was nor was it a blip at the time by asserting that somehow everyone who was anyone saw it as a huge thing. But this simply isn't so no matter how much you assert it.

And of course Jesus is described in Talmud as an enticer who was hanged on Pesach and all else.

Not true. I could quote the passages you think you are referring to (Sanhedrin 43a) if you would like and wait for you to learn some Hebrew and Aramaic so you can realize your mistake. Let me know.

It seems your main line of defense is I don't know how to read or understand Tanakh. So I ask again why I know Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua?

That isn't a main line of defense. It is the main impediment to your understanding all the other points I have made. And you ask why you know "Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox" who "adore Yeshua" and I say that the answer is simple -- you don't.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The church fathers who came centuries after the NT writers are not in the discussion. The 27 NT books are nearly 100% Tanakh commentary/Tanakh driven. Hundreds of Tanakh references are considered prophecy therein and are expounded upon--a rabbi wrote 2/3 of these 27 books, and used a teaching style common to the day and to oral and written law.

One of the reasons for accepting the 27 and rejecting the others is that the 27 ARE from Tanakh.

Any discussion about the NT is going to involve those who decided what content went into it and what content was out. The Church Fathers were those men. So, they are relevant to any discussion about what the NT is, what it means, and how it should be interpreted.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here is more on the Church Fathers who are mentioend in the NT, so they are 100% connected to the NT.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Concerning how many books were in the NT canon, originally, here is an analysis of that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So I ask again why I know Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua?

Care to give their names and contact information so we can ask them about their "adoration" of yeshu?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No it doesn't. It makes the same errors that Muslim and Mormon texts do. You just don't want to see it.


OK, yeah, sure. Sadly, there have been many false messianic figures and their followers have risked a whole lot to follow them. Why aren't you worshipping Shabtai Tzvi? Of course, your answer hinges on your buying into the historicity and authenticity of the gospels as early and accurate writings. Since I don't I see the authorship as less daunting than you portray it.

No doubt this is subject to significantly more debate than you would like to admit to. Other threads have and will continue to address this.

You ask for documents to counter something that never was nor was it a blip at the time by asserting that somehow everyone who was anyone saw it as a huge thing. But this simply isn't so no matter how much you assert it.

Not true. I could quote the passages you think you are referring to (Sanhedrin 43a) if you would like and wait for you to learn some Hebrew and Aramaic so you can realize your mistake. Let me know.


That isn't a main line of defense. It is the main impediment to your understanding all the other points I have made. And you ask why you know "Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox" who "adore Yeshua" and I say that the answer is simple -- you don't.

I don't worship Schneerson or Shabtai Tzvi because they lack 12 teams of authors who proved they fulfilled Tanakh prophecy in their lives. Nor have either of them made dozens of prescient predictions affecting everything from family relationships to world politics to the weather.

By the way, you've failed to answer or address the last ten or so challenges put forth to you. Your theory that "sad people wrote the NT to explain life" is outrageous--these people risked death and expulsion from Jewish life to bring us the good news of Yeshua!

For now, let's agree to disagree, but for one thing--it we love babies and Israel, we'll vote for Trump!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Care to give their names and contact information so we can ask them about their "adoration" of yeshu?

I know no Jew who adores Yeshu. Nor do these men need more Toviah Singers in their lives.

You love Israel and Tanakh? Vote for Trump!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I know no Jew who adores Yeshu. Nor do these men need more Toviah Singers in their lives.

You love Israel and Tanakh? Vote for Trump!

I don't vote in America. I live in Israel. Since you provided no names it appear that you just made up your statement of knowing Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua, Otherwise you would have given the names; even if I wrote Yeshu's name the way it would have been in the Galilee where they didn't pronounce Ayin. Yet, that is something typical of the type of claims you make. I can also make a similar claim, "I know a large number of Cathilics, Protestants, Messianics, Sacred Namers, Hebrew Roots, etc. who disagree with 98% you have written in this thread." See how easy it is to make such a claim?

 

[rosends]

I don't worship Schneerson or Shabtai Tzvi because they lack 12 teams of authors who proved they fulfilled Tanakh prophecy in their lives.

So your belief is based on 12 teams of authors. Got it. There are plenty of authors who wrote about Shabtai Tzvi as fulfilling all sorts of things. But it has to be 12 teams? Also, there are more than 12 teams who show that Jesus didn't fulfill prophecies or fulfilled ones that anyone could fill, or that certain things aren't actually messianic prophecies. But your teams know better I guess.

Nor have either of them made dozens of prescient predictions affecting everything from family relationships to world politics to the weather.

And you think Jesus did? Even according to the authors who cooked up the stories, he got plenty wrong. Nice work!

By the way, you've failed to answer or address the last ten or so challenges put forth to you. Your theory that "sad people wrote the NT to explain life" is outrageous--these people risked death and expulsion from Jewish life to bring us the good news of Yeshua!

Claiming that my explanation is outrageous doesn't mean that I failed to answer. Just that you don't like the answer. Stay focused, You are losing it here.

For now, let's agree to disagree, but for one thing--it we love babies and Israel, we'll vote for Trump!

If I wanted to discuss politics, I would do so in the appropriate forum.

 

[rosends]

I know no Jew who adores Yeshu. Nor do these men need more Toviah Singers in their lives.

You love Israel and Tanakh? Vote for Trump!

So you claimed to know people and then when challenged, say you don't know people. Noted.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't vote in America. I live in Israel. Since you provided no names it appear that you just made up your statement of knowing Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua, Otherwise you would have given the names; even if I wrote Yeshu's name the way it would have been in the Galilee where they didn't pronounce Ayin. Yet, that is something typical of the type of claims you make. I can also make a similar claim, "I know a large number of Cathilics, Protestants, Messianics, Sacred Namers, Hebrew Roots, etc. who disagree with 98% you have written in this thread." See how easy it is to make such a claim?

It's not easy at all. None of whom you listed disagree that Yeshua is prophesied in Tanakh.

You seem unaware that Yeshua's name derives from Yehoshua's name. You'd like to drop the Ayin because you don't want Yeshua associated with Yauhweh.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you claimed to know people and then when challenged, say you don't know people. Noted.

No, I say your claim that only uneducated Jews are Christians is untrue. 10 seconds in Google and you'd find legendary Jews who've contributed to Christian thought for 2,000 years.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So your belief is based on 12 teams of authors. Got it. There are plenty of authors who wrote about Shabtai Tzvi as fulfilling all sorts of things. But it has to be 12 teams? Also, there are more than 12 teams who show that Jesus didn't fulfill prophecies or fulfilled ones that anyone could fill, or that certain things aren't actually messianic prophecies. But your teams know better I guess.

And you think Jesus did? Even according to the authors who cooked up the stories, he got plenty wrong. Nice work!

Claiming that my explanation is outrageous doesn't mean that I failed to answer. Just that you don't like the answer. Stay focused, You are losing it here.

If I wanted to discuss politics, I would do so in the appropriate forum.

Shabtai Tzvi fulfilled hundreds of Tanakh prophecies? Stay on track, brother!

Have a great week.

 

[rosends]

No, I say your claim that only uneducated Jews are Christians is untrue. 10 seconds in Google and you'd find legendary Jews who've contributed to Christian thought for 2,000 years.

I claim that you know none of the kinds of people you claim to. In fact, you wrote, "So I ask again why I know Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua?"

And now you have admitted that you don't. Go running to google if that's your salvation. Your claims are shown to be empty.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It's not easy at all. None of whom you listed disagree that Yeshua is prophesied in Tanakh.

You seem unaware that Yeshua's name derives from Yehoshua's name. You'd like to drop the Ayin because you don't want Yeshua associated with Yauhweh.

Ah, so you are a Sacred Namer or a Hebrew Roots type Christian! Now it makes sense why you making some of the claims you are making. It also makes sense now why you claim you know of people who adore your guy but you find ways to not list any names of said people. Now that we have settled that, I will leave you to your own devices.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I claim that you know none of the kinds of people you claim to. In fact, you wrote, "So I ask again why I know Lubavitchers, Rabbis, Orthodox and Conservatives, Ph. D Hebrew scholars, who adore Yeshua?"

And now you have admitted that you don't. Go running to google if that's your salvation. Your claims are shown to be empty.

What he is trying to do is not answer the questions about the names of the people he claimed he knew by trying to focus on me not including an Ayin in his guy's name. (Even though some like the Syrian Christian of the East claim that in the Galillee they did not pronounce Ayin.)

This kind of tactic, claims w/o providing actual names, is something that is common in certain non-standard circles who are between Christian and Sacred Name/Hebrew Roots. Since he is in that sphere a discussion will go on and on with no logical resolution; since endless debate is a major part of their Modus operandi. It is a trademark of those type of Jesus/yeshua/yahshua/yahushua/yawhasha/etc. movements. Endless debate without having to go on source material. You may want to consider how much of your time want to dedicate to back and forth with someone in this stream Jesus/yeshua/yahshua/yahushua/yawhasha/etc. faith.

 

[syo]

It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

Not in mine. ''Sin'' does not exist. It's not even a word worth mentioning.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not in mine. ''Sin'' does not exist. It's not even a word worth mentioning.

The Bible tells us that all men have been sinners against God at some time. So, whether you acknowledge it or not, the message of scripture is that there is an all-seeing Creator who knows our rebelliousness and will judge us accordingly.

If the Holy Spirit reproves all men of sin, then it follows that all men need to repent before God.

I guess it all starts with one God. One God and one truth. One truth that is also adjudged by the one God.

As I see it, one cannot escape the wages of sin without God's mercy and forgiveness.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Bible tells us that all men have been sinners against God at some time. So, whether you acknowledge it or not, the message of scripture is that there is an all-seeing Creator who knows our rebelliousness and will judge us accordingly.

If scripture is correct in reproving all men of sin, then it follows that all men need to repent before God.

I guess it all starts with one God. One God and one truth. One truth that is also adjudged by the one God.

As I see it, one cannot escape the wages of sin without God's mercy and forgiveness.

Not everyone is a Christian who cares about what the Bible says, is a monotheist or believes in the concept of sin. I think that is what he was getting at.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not everyone is a Christian who cares about what the Bible says, is a monotheist or believes in the concept of sin. I think that is what he was getting at.

Yes, that's probably the point being made.

The trouble I have with this thinking is that it fails to account for Truth. If there is one God, and one Truth, then it doesn't matter what faith you claim to follow! The Truth will catch up with everyone eventually.