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Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

Discussion in 'Judaism DIR' started by Ehav4Ever, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    There have been several threads recently where questons have come up as to:
    1. Why do Torah based Jews not accept Chrisitian scriptual interpretation?
    2. Why do Torah based Jews not Jesus as a/the Messiah?
    3. Why is there a divide between "Judaism" and "Christianity?"
    It is hope that in this post these questions can answered in a way where Jewish voices on this matter are THE focus so that questions can be answered from Jews. In order for Jewish voices to be properly heard I have placed this in Judaism DIR.

    In order to provide a starting point I must repeat something I wrote in a previous thread.

    If one wants to understand the diffeence from a purely "theological" perspective one could sum it up in the following way.

    Torath Mosheh/Judaism (Ancient and Orthodox) Claims and Historical Realities
    1. The most ancient, authentic, and autharative claim of the Torah/Judaism, Tanakh, etc. is that at Mount Sinai several thousand years ago the Creator of all things approached the Jewish people with an offer of the Torah.
    2. What westerners call the 10 Commandments were given and revealed by Hashem directly to the entire Israeli/Jewish nation together/as whole/at once with Mosheh (Moses) standing there with them. Hashem gave approval of Mosheh (Moses) in front of that mass Israel/Jewish group.
    3. It was this "mass revelation" event that started/created the Israeli/Jewish nation. There is no other source, from the time period and most of the history later, for "exactly" how the Jewish nation. A large percentage of Jews today are direct or partial descendants of the Israelis/Jews who are claimed to have received the "Torah" as a mass revelation.
    4. The Torah included a written component and an oral component to explain the written text and how to perform it. Thus, the Torah is the foundation of ALL other Jewish concept and text (including the prophets and the writings).
    5. Thus, the for Jews if a point is to be made it must meet the guidelines in the written Torah and the Oral Torah which is called Torath Mosheh. The Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, writings) were written in Hebrew. with some parts in Aramaic, using Jewish language, idiom, culture, and still exists today as it did thousands of years ago. Torah/Judaism doesn't rely on Christianity or its ideas to exist for the Torah/Judaism to exist.
    6. The Hebrew language of ancient Israel still exists, is used, and understood by a large portion of modern Jews in and outside of the land of Israel. Aramaic is further also widely known among Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews/and of course any Jew whose family came from an Aramaic speaking country.

    Chrianity/Messianic Jewish/Sacred Name/Hebrew Roots Claims and Historical Realities
    1. The most ancient, authentic, and autharative claims of all Jesus/Yeshua center groups is the New Testament (NT). The earliest known/apparent NT texts were written in Greek. There are various Aramaic type NT that exist but Christian scholars debate their dating.
    2. The NT contains information about a gorup of Jews who Christians claim beleived that an individual named Jesus/Yeshua/etc. was a type of "Messiah." Since none of thier original texts of the Jewish Christians survived it is not clear exactly what they really beleived. The main thrust of post Nicene Christianity revolves around this individual and the Christian concept of what a messiah is to them. (post Nicene Christianity)
    3. The construction of the NT, which also means what was included and not included, comes form the early Church Fathers - historically no Jews were involved in this process.
    4. The original group of Jewish Christians disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start. After this point there was no group who can positively identified as the original group's descendents/family/or Jewish students.
    5. Currently, there is no proven Christian/Messianic/Sacred Namer/Hebrew roots groups or individual who claim to be direct descendents of Jesus's original followers. The NT claims that Jesus followers like Peter had a family which brings up the question of, "What happened to Peter's family? Did they believe in Jesus and if so where are their descendents found in history?"
    6. The vast majority of Christians worldwide do not know the Hebrew of the Tanakh, or Aramaic, or even Greek. Historically speaking only a certain minority Christian clergy were systamtically learning Hebrew and Greek, a lot fewer Aramaic.
    7. The majority of the rank and file Christians in the world are descendants of convertions to Christianity and not direct descendents of the early Jewish Christians or even the early non-Jewish Churches.

    Essentially, the above is the root of the theological differences. Without addressing the above you won't really get the core of the differences. Thus, as I mentioned before this is why most Jews wouldn't get involved in such a debate with the intent of convincing Chrsitans that they are wrong.

    In my next post I will provide some details about the above.
     
    #1 Ehav4Ever, Aug 30, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
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  2. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Going forward I hope to cover the following topics.
    1. How do Torah based Jews determine what is true and what is false?
    2. Why do Torah based Jews insist on Hebrew texts as THE standard?
    3. Is the Jewish concept of (משיח) mashi'ahh the same as the Christian concept of "messiah"?
    4. What issues do Jews have Christian texts and interpretations?
    5. What is the Jewish concept of sin and how to deal with it?
    I think these four topics can be covered from a lot of different angles can pretty much answer any question that someone may have. I will be presenting information in both written and video formats.
     
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  3. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

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    Responding to your title "Simple Reasons...", I'll begin and end at the ['simple'] existential level: "Hashem is 1[, not 3]." The Trinity is an affront to our relationship with Hashem. Hashem gets j/zealous because of this 'Association', and so a Jew does too.
     
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  4. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    You make a good point. That is what I include in "How do Torah based Jews determine what is true and what is false?"
     
  5. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    How do Torah based Jews determine what is true and what is false?

    These three videos will serve as the starting point for what will be discussed shortly.





     
  6. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    How do Torah based Jews determine what is true and what is false? (Part 2)

    Torath Mosheh: All Jewish related historical texts and traditions trace back to one singularity and that is the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. It doesn’t matter if one is talking about Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews i.e. [Mizrahim-Teimanim-Sephardim-Askenazim-Hasidim-Hareidim-Orthodox-Ethiopian Jews], Karaites, or Shomronim (Samaritans); all groups even with their differences agree on the basic details of “Matan Torah at Mount Sinai” i.e. the “Giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai.”

    That is to say, Hashem, the source of all creation, spoke to the entire Israeli nation at Mount Sinai and that these groups in one way or another are the descendants of those Israelis. All three groups agree that Mosheh ben-Amram transcribed the written Torah based on Hashem’s complete instructions and all groups agree that the result of all of this was the eventual establishment of the Israeli people to the Land of Israel. This single event, Matan Torah at Mount Sinai, jump started the ancient Israeli nation and is the source of all Jewish existence. We can easily prove from ancient historical sources that Israelis/Jews have existed for more than 2,500 years and we can easily trace the various traditions still in practice amongst Israeli/Jewish communities today to ancient history.

    We can sum up this part of the discussion concerning the Mesorah of the people of Israel by stating that some of the most pressing matters revolve around the truth of the reality that Hashem has created, the truth of the commands that Hashem gave to humanity, is to correctly[1] perform the 7 mitzvoth of Hashem, and for the correct way that people of Israel are to correctly perform the 613 mitzvoth of Hashem. Having a trustworthy and verifiable method of addressing these issues is not only logical but a must.

    Further, in the Rambam’s commentary of the Mishnah when discussing the 13 principles of the Torah, in principle #8 the following is noted.

    משנה עם פירוש הרמב"ם – סנהדרין פרק עשירי חלק ב, המדורות של רב יוסף קאפח

    והיסוד שמיני הוא תורה מן השמים. והוא, שנאמין שכל התורה הזו הנמצאת בידינו היום הזה היא התורה שניתנה למשה, ושהיא כולה מפי הגבורה...וכן פירושה המקבל גם הוא מפי הגבורה, וזה שאנו עושים היום צורת הסוכה והלולב והשופר והציצית והתפילים וזלותם היא עצמה הצורה שאמר ה" למשה ואמר לנו....
    [2

    (Translation) “And the 8th foundation is “Torah from Shamayim.” And it, that to hold that all of this Torah that is found in our hands today it is the Torah that was given to Mosheh, and that it is all from Hashem….and that the explanation (Oral Torah) of the was also received from Hashem, and this that we are doing today – form of the Succah, the Lulav, the Shofar, the Tzitzith, and the Tefillin and it is the form that Hashem said to Mosheh and to us…

    Mesorah/Mesoreth: The Hebrew word Mesorah/Mesoreth (מסורת) generally means something that is transmitted or delivered from previous generations, starting from early history, to the current one. Within the context of Halakha and Torah based tradition a mesorah has three origins types.
    1. A direct tradition/practice that originated from Mosheh Rabbeinu and his Beith Din at Mount Sinai.
    2. A tradition/practice that originates from a ruling based on the principles given to Mosheh Rabbeinu on how to derive practice from the text of the Torah.
    3. Rulings made past Sanhedrins (Mosaic Courts of 71 Jewish Experts in Torah) to strengthen the practice of the Torah, based on need, and assist people not to make mistakes in practice of the Torah.
    From these three circumstances the Rambam explains that when it comes to Qabbalah the definition of something as “Qabbalah”, in a halakhic sense, is based or practices of the Torah which were passed down from the time of Mosheh Rabbeinu, or later courts, and for which there is no debate about their origin and authenticity. The matters which are debatable are not “Qabbalah” and if it is a matter that is judicial and there is debate on it the Jewish people go by the majority.[4] This concept is explained in more detail by Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz in his reference guide to the Talmud which states:

    “Each generation received knowledge of divine revelation and passed it on to the next. Some things were written down, and others remained in the oral tradition. Certain things were exceedingly hard to explain either orally or in writing and had to be taken as axiomatic. The sum of one generation’s knowledge of revelation is known as the Torah of that generation, and its transmission to the following generation is the well-known (שלשלת הקבלה) – 'Chain of Tradition.”​

    This claim, for the transmission, can be found in all Torath Mosheh communities whether they be in Africa, the Middle East, Europe, Asia, or the West. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about the Rambam, Ramban, the Rosh, Rashi, Rashbam, etc. At the end of the day there must always be a method of balancing and checking the reliability of practices and information that one may be presented with in any generation.

    Avodah Zara: "foreign worship", meaning "idolatry" or "strange worship") The second of the Ten Commandments forbids making and worshipping idols.

    As Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz stated in his Reference to the Talmud:

    The prohibition against idolatry (עבודה זרה) is one of the most severe in the Torah (see Shemoth/Ex. 20:3-5) and is punishable by stoning. (See Deut. 17:2-7). It is one of the three commandments which a Jew must keep even if he is threatened with death for doing so. The scope of the prohibition includes accepting another deity as an Elohim (even together with Hashem) or worshipping another deity. Idol worship may involve: (1) Serving the avodah zara in the manner that idolaters worship it. (2) Serving the false deity in the same way that Hashem is worshipped, (3) Accepting as one’s Elohim.​

    From the moment that the Jews entered the land of Israel, the pagan cults of the surrounding peoples were a periodic source of temptation, against which the prophets warned and fought.

    [1] Correct in the sense of having the right perspective and the right information of how to do the will of Hashem. This is different than the Christian concept and is not connected to the idea of being perfect as in not making mistakes. The Torah contains mitzvoth which provides methods to deal with mistakes, intentional and unintentional. In this vien the Torah deals with the person as they are and given them ability to deal with the reality of free will which a person can choose the good path or the bad path, freely. Thus, no person is a slave to their choices and they can learn to correctly manage their behavior by applying the Torah in a Torah based community. In contrast, the Christian concept of sin claims that if a person doesn’t do the Torah perfectly at all times then sin is beyond human control.

    [2] משנה עם פירוש הרמב"ם – סנהדרין פרק עשירי חלק ב, המדורות של רב יוסף קאפח

    [3] A Torah court – also known as a Sahendrin - of learned, respected, and accepted scholars and teachers of the Torah. The first Sanhendrin headed by Mosheh would have learned directly from him and they passed on what they were taught to their students and that chain of transmission has continued until today.

    [4] Devarim (Deut.)

    [5] The Talmud A Reference Guide by Rabbi Adin Steinsatz, page 236,published 1989
     
    #6 Ehav4Ever, Sep 1, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  7. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    The Tanakh Requirement for Jewish Verification

    Based on the above, a person may wonder what to do when they are presented with claims or arguments concerning the correct interpretation or application of Torah. Who does one listen to, who is reliable, and how does one validate information as a mesorah worth giving attention to?

    In previous papers I discussed the issue of “how” the written Torah is claimed, among Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews, to have been transmitted from the time it was given in full at Mount Sinai to the entire people of Yisrael.[1] Since the transmission of information from that time to the present there was never a complete break throughout the entire Torah based Jewish world one can safely assume that in the modern era, somewhere in the modern state of Israel, one should find the correct path to be in place, and in practice, in one or many of the Torah based communities.

    In order to enter into this matter, we must first understand the position that is presented in the Torah and other areas of the Tanakh.
    משלי א:ז
    יראת ה" ראשית דעת חכמה ומוסר אוילים בזו:

    (Translation) Mishlaei 1:7 The fear of Hashem is the first knowledge, wisdom, and ethics; fool’s shame.

    If one takes this pasuk into consideration, the awe for observance, respect, or fear of Hashem is the first steps for knowledge, wisdom, and correct ethical content. Those who are not wise do not take this as a respectful path. Thus, the first step in the claim of a Mesorah could be posited in the sources respect and awe for Hashem. This awe for Hashem can also be connected to the mitzvoth of imitating Hashem’s ways and continuously connecting oneself to those who have a track record and proven history of Torah based knowledge and practice.[2]

    דברים טז,כ
    צדק צדק תרדף למען תחיה וירשת את הארץ אשר יהוה אלהיך נתן לך


    (Translation) Correctness correctness[3], pursue; on account that you will live and inherit the land which Hashem your Elohim will give to you.[4]


    This pasuk makes the connection being “correct” (to the standards of the Torah as Hashem gave them) to inheriting the land of Israel. I take from this that as Jews we are required to pursue the truth at all levels in order to fulfill the goal of Torah and living in Eretz Yisrael. Any question of halakha and mesorah is going to be dictated by the pursuit of the truth as the path that leads to correctly performing the will of Hashem.

    תורה – ספר דברים לב,ז
    זכר ימות עולם, בינו שנות דר-ודר; שאל אביך ויגדך, זקניך ויאמרו לך

    (Translation) Torah – Sefer Devarim 32,7 Remember the days of the world, brought forth years from generation to generation; ask you father to tell you, your elders to tell you.

    It is from this line that the understanding of the past comes down from one’s “father” and “elders” so, given that a mesorah is passed down from generation to generation it would stand to reason that one should start their investigation with their direct ancestors and community elders who have a proven history of keeping Torah. Various Torah commentators make note that the “father” mentioned in this pasuk are the “prophets” and the “elders” are the Hachamim.[5]

    This is further detailed by the Rambam[6] in the Mishnah Torah as it is a mitzvah to attach oneself to a knowledgeable teacher of Torah to learn from him/them and to learn from their ways. In another section of the Mishnah Torah the Rambam places the responsibility of teaching Torah upon fathers to their sons, and grandsons, which may include finding them proper instructors if needed. This instruction also goes beyond one’s family and extends to all possible students of Torah.[7]

    In comparison, when commenting on the statement (לא ידעת אתה ואבתיך) from Devarim 13:7 Rashi makes it clear that the people of Israel, in matters of Avodah Zara, do not rely on what the nations received from their ancestors but instead we rely on what our ancestors, based on Torah, received.

    This brings us to the next challenge that is presented and that is concerning the existence of a Sanhendrin and Beith Din’s that maintained and taught the Oral Torah and whether it is ever mentioned in the Tanakh. Of course, one wouldn’t find the word “Sanhedrin” because it is a Greek word. As we know languages evolve and the vocabulary normally grows and expands. This is even found in the Tanakh where the style of Hebrew used by a number of the prophets is different than the style used in the Torah. They were different time frames and sometimes different words are used to express the same idea because of the change in the generations.

    In ancient times the leaders of the people of Israel and their Beith Din’s (Torah/Halakha Courts) were described using the following terminology.

    1) זקנים

    2) שופטים

    3) שוטרים

    4) נושאים

    5) שרים

    Below are only a few examples from the Tanakh of the existence of the judicial bodies which are linked to the more modern community and detailed in Mishnah Pirke Avoth. The Rambam further details and describes in the Introduction to the Mishnah Torah about the process of transmission from Sinai to the era of Rav Ashe and thus from the era of Rav Ashe we have sources that lead to the modern era.[8]

    ישעיהו ח:כ
    לתורה, ולתעודה; אם-לא יאמרו כדבר הזה, אשר אין-לו שחר

    (Translation) Yeshayahu 8:20 To the Torah, and to the Teudah; if a matter doesn’t say like this, there is no dawn in it.[9]

    The principle here is that we determine a matter based on a proven track record of Torah and Teudah (תעודה).[10] As Rav Saadya Gaon wrote in his book Emunath and Deoth, the truth of a mesorah is proven out by investigation and that this investigation has two purposes. First, to authentic what we have received for the sake of our actions and second for the sake of being able to correct those who may error.[11] This concept is also to help perfect the person’s logic, which is also something that is stressed by the Rambam in most of his writings. Thus, having the proper Torah perspective, understanding, and information to support one’s decisions and philosophical ides is a must and a minute to minute, day to day, and a year to year pursuit.

    מלאכי ג:כב
    זכרו, תורת משה עבדי, אשר צויתי אותו בחרב על-כל-ישראל, חקים ומשפטים

    (Translation) Malachi 3:22 Remember, Torath Mosheh [Torah of Mosheh] my servant, which I commanded him at Horev on all Yisrael, judgements and rulings.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    How do Torah based Jews determine what is true and what is false? (Part 3)

    Based on the above sources we can determine some general rules to use for such matters which can be summed up in three key questions.

    1) Is it ancient?

    2) Is it authentic?

    3) Is it authoritative?

    Is it ancient – The first question a person has to ask concerns texts and understandings which can be shown to exist in more ancient times. Our way of checking this is through identifying the oldest Jewish communities that have a recorded history of active Torah practice and learning. The idea being that any valid mesorah would be the result of a process of generations upon generation writing, copying, discussing, debating, and verifying information received from the previous generations. As we investigate each generation’s written and oral accounts we converge back to the singularity, or claimed/theorized origin of the original mesorah, tradition, or practice.

    For example, a practice that is claimed to be from Mount Sinai should be found somewhere in previous writings, discussions, or interpretations from the oldest Jewish communities as being claimed to be from that period. If the oldest Jewish communities are silent on the practice but it is mentioned in later generations, but never claimed to be from Mount Sinai, we would have to conclude that the practice may be ancient but is not as ancient as the revelation from Mount Sinai. If the practice is not found in any information from the most ancient communities but only is found in more modern times one would have to move to the next question of whether it is authentic.

    Is it authentic? – This deals with the issue of whether a tradition in and of itself is reliable; even if is found to not be modern. A good example of this are the issues that can be found in some of the so called Dead Sea scrolls. Some of them are old, based on age alone, but that doesn’t mean that the texts were ever considered “official” codifications by those who created them and not merely the personal interpretations of that individual or that particular community. Its authenticity would logically also have to come as the result of understanding how those outside of the Dead Sea communities understood these texts and not simply by assuming that the age of the text makes it more reliable.[1]

    Is it authoritative? – This point makes use of the two previous questions but focuses on the actual acceptance of said mesorah amongst the oldest Jewish communities. In other words, if this text or tradition is presented to various recipients of the core ancient text or tradition it would be immediately recognized as being noteworthy or reliable.

    This could be because it matches ancient and authentic texts already in their possession. It could be that they originally had such a tradition but stopped practicing it for reasons beyond their control. It could be that the oldest and most knowledgeable members of their community recognize the source of the text or the tradition as being correct. Lastly, it could be that the text or the tradition has stood the test of time and all challenges to it have resulted in the text or tradition being proven trustworthy and the challenges lacking.

    This means that at some point with so many functional texts in the possession of the average Jew in so many locations around the world the chances are very high that at least one of these groups would have the right mesorah. Additionally, traditions that are common between ancient communities that had little to no contact between them means that the level of reliability of the tradition is high.[2]

    [1] To explain this further, let’s consider the attention given to minor variations of spelling or use of words and also the lack of some of the polish that is found in Masoretic. This has caused some scholars to claim that there may have been various textual traditions and the Masoretic text was only one of them. Yet, in reality anyone can write a copy of the Torah for their own personal use and there would be no distinctions to mark it as such. A person thousands of years later who finds that text buried or stored somewhere could mistakingly think the text is something that it may not have been to the user. Halakhically speaking, only Torah scrolls written for the sole purpose of use in an official setting, such as a synagogue service, are considered authentic. Torah scrolls that are meant for official use meet the criteria of spacing, structure, and word count which is a common practice found among all ancient Jewish communities.

    [2] It must be noted that I don’t hold by the concept that if something “oriental” then it is more accurate correct. I hold by the truth that if proven to be the case can come from any community.
     
  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    You regard Shomronim as Jews?
     
  10. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't consider them to be Jews and they also don't claim to be Jews. They claim to come from the tribes of Yoseph and Levi. Genetics have shown a connection between them and us but halakhically that is meaningless.

    Where I do find them interesting to such a conversation is that often people who want to denouce us Jews they often shift to using the Shomronim - especially since there are people who think they don't have a type of Torah Shebaal Pe but in reality they do and they also claim to have one.

    Lastly, in short between us them and the Karaites those are the only three possible paths back to Mount Sinai, if one to look from the outside in.
     
  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Then I see no reason to bunch them together with Jews (including Karaites who we agree are Jews), as you state here:

    It doesn’t matter if one is talking about Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews i.e. [Mizrahim-Teimanim-Sephardim-Askenazim-Hasidim-Hareidim-Orthodox-Ethiopian Jews], Karaites, or Shomronim (Samaritans)
    I think it most certainly does matter to whom one is referring to, in a thread that speaks about the differences between Judaism and Christianity, as Christians don't accept our Oral Tradition, or at least the majority of it, and in some cases even disagree on the Written Tradition, and the same is true for the Shomronim who accept neither our version of the Written Torah nor our Oral Tradition, nor are they even Jewish, like the Christians. Karaites likewise do not accept the majority of the Oral Tradition, but do accept the Written Torah and are at least considered Jewish. Lumping them all together doesn't seem right, considering the context.
     
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  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Greetings. There will be a seperation as I move forward - i.e. going further they are not as relevent. Concerning the Jewishness of the Samaritans - they have Israeli ancestry but they are not considered Jews in the sense of Yehudah/Judea and also them not conforming to Torah and Halakha. Kind of like the halakha states about certain types of heretics who are "considered" as if they are not Jewish - even if biologically they are.

    Also, you have to remember that not all rabbis consider Karaites to be Jews and not all people who claim to be Karaites are. Further, the reason that Samaritans are not considered Jews is because they broke off from true Torah and Halakha during the 2nd Temple period - thus they were considered a type of heretic going way back. There was a cheif Rabbi of Israel once who defended them against the Ottomans - noting that they were Israel like us but that they were in major error having strayed from the path.

    For a discussion about how the Torah was received they are relevant, especially given some of the Christian/Messinic arguements/claims I have experienced over the years.

    One of the major arguements of various missionaries is that we Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews have not kept the Torah correctly. Over the years they have produced numerous tactics to make this point and the Samaritans and Karaites have been a part of that.

    Where they will be relevant in what I will addressing is in the following areas.
    1. In the 1990's there were a number of Christian scholars who were trying to use the Samaritans as a way of saying that the Jewish Torah (written and oral) was in error but that the Samaritans have a more ancient and prestine Torah. (Because it is written in a "type" of ancient Hebrew script.)
      • Part of the arguement here is like this, "Here is a group [Samaritans] who look ancient and have ancient looking practices. They also have a Hebrew pronuciation that sounds ancient. They also have been persecuted by those bad Jews. Please we just love that good Samaritan story of the NT."
    2. Back in the early 2000's I came across a Samaritan forum, hosted by one lone Israeli Samaritan from Holon. Most of the time he did not post on the forum so it ended up having loads of Christians. Most of the Christians on the forum were making the kinds of comments, I listed in point #1, couple with their idea that the Samaritans were more correct becaue they did not have an oral Torah. Eventually, the Samaritan Israeli kid who maintained the site came out and declared that the Samaritans 100% have their own "Oral Torah." After he made that declaration virtually all of the Christians left the forum.
    3. The Samaritans have a similar concept of mashiahh that we do, but instead of being from Beith David their Taheb (תהב) "their concept of mashiahh" comes from the tribes of Yoseph. Further, they claim that the Taheb will restore the Torah kingdom of Israel - centered in Schechem - and then will die and be buried on Mount Gerizim.
      • This furthers the point against 2nd comings and the like if there were no groups, spinters or not, who beleived in such a concept. Thus, the only people who ever beleived in such were groups who lost their leaders and couldn't let go. (Shabatai Tzvi)
    4. When I get into the mashiahh ben-Yoseph part of the discussion I will need to reference the Samaritans.
    5. The Karaites are relevant in that they also agree with us, and the Samaritans, that there is no such thing as a mashiahh who dies and comes back. (No 2nd coming.)
    6. Further, there was a Karaite scholar who years ago disproved the entire Christian concept using only the Tanakh.
    You have to remember that the title of this thread is "Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity." Thus, even a secular or Reform or Conservative Jew may fall under the rubric and reject the claims made by Chritianity. So, even if a Jew were to reject Torath Mosheh/Judaism/etc. there are often very few who are willing to become Christians.

    I hope that helps explain why position.
     
  13. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Thus, there are only three paths a person could take. All three paths agree with how the Torah was given to Am Yisrael and all three paths agree that the concepts found in Christianity do not match the standards that Hashem in the Torah. Thus, even with the fact that both Samaritans and Karaites are break away groups from Torath Mosheh they still never go the route of Christianity and they both did a better job of surviving than the original Jewish Christians.

    As a side note, I have actually convinced a few messianics to leave that movement with this arguement.
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I have never heard any respectable halachic source state that they are natural-born members of Am Yisrael. Even in the gemara, where they were referred as Kuti'im, for a time they were considered converts, nothing more. Later they were called idolaters, and essentially removed from their converted status. Let us not forget how many problems they caused the Jews in the time of Ezra and Nechemiah. Giving them convert status was doing them a big favor, in my opinion. But in later generations they were no longer considered converts, and this halachic ruling still stands, to my knowledge. So I don't know what this "Israeli ancestry" that you refer to is.
    Again, while I'm not a halachic expert, I've never heard any such views. I've heard there were questions on whether one could marry them, but Rav Ovadiah ruled that you could. As far as I know, Karaites don't accept converts, so I don't know in what way one could be one without being Jewish.
    While that is true, note that the differentiation needs to be clarified. Karaites are a sect of Judaism, Shomronim are not.
    None of this really matters, in the context. Christians also have their own concept of messiah. So? That doesn't make them Jewish.
    No, not really. :neutral:
     
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    That is because you have to understand that there is a historical difference betweent the modern day Samaritans and Kutim mentioned in the Talmud. Historically speaking, at one time it was not clear if the "present day" group we call Shomronim (living between Holon and Nablus) are the exact descendants of the Kuthim that are mentioned in various places in the Talmud. One of the reasons for this is that the modern day Samaritans don't appear to have many of the traditions that the Talmud associated with the Kuthim. Further, in the last few centuries there have been Russian and Ukranian women of are claimed to be Jewish ?????? who have married into their community.

    Based on genetic testing that was done, there is a theory the modern day Samaritans may have, potentially partially, been a post 2nd Temple break away group who took up some the practices of the Kuthim while also teaching them some of the Jewish ones. A 2004 article on the genetic ancestry of the Samaritans by Shen et al. concluded from a sample comparing Samaritans to several Jewish populations, all currently living in Israel—representing the Beta Israel, Ashkenazi Jews, Iraqi Jews, Libyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Yemenite Jews, as well as Israeli Druze and Palestinians—that "the principal components analysis suggested a common ancestry of Samaritan and Jewish patrilineages. Most of the former may be traced back to a common ancestor in what is today identified as the paternally inherited Israelite high priesthood (Cohanim) with a common ancestor projected to the time of the Assyrian conquest of the kingdom of Israel." The study goes on to say that "Such a scenario could explain why Samaritan Y chromosome lineages cluster tightly with Jewish Y lineages, while their mitochondrial lineages are closest to Iraqi Jewish and Israeli Arab mtDNA sequences."

    I once had more information on this but I will have to look in my old drive for the information.

    In any case, halakhically, even if the "modern day" group of Samaritans living between Holon, Israel and Shechem are purely 100% descendents of the Kutim with no Israeli/Jewish ancestry mentioned in the Talmud or even partially post 2nd Temple break away Jews who mixed/taught/took on practices of the Kutim because they seperated themselves long enough and have been far outside of correct Torath Mosheh for generations they require a giyyur - on that point everyone agrees. Several Samaritan women have done this before and had to leave their families.

    As you may know, not all Ashkenazim hold by Rav Ovodyah Z"l. The issue that he was stating was that "certain Karaites" who have known Jewish family. I.e. in Egypt it was known who the Karaites from there were and their were marriages between Sephardic Jews and Karaites. The Karaites outside of Egypt can often be questionable.

    There are some Askhenazi rabbis who don't hold the way that Rav Ovodyah Z"l and they go by they simple say that anyone who is a Karaite must go through a giyyur since their status is not to be trusted. (Marriages, divorces, witnesses, etc.)

    It must also be noted that there are a number of non-Jews who have taken up the Karaite mantle and have no clear known Jewish ancestry. Thus, Egyptian Karaites have become the standard for whether you can potentially say someone is really Jewish in the Karaite community.

    Actually, I never stated that Shomronim are a sect of Judaism. Also, to be quite honest the Karaites are also not a sect of Judaism. Both groups are, simply put, heretics of Torath Mosheh, as the Rambam and Saadya Gaon point out. Both groups reject the halakha that came ouf Har Sinai and the rulings of the Sanhedrin.

    The Karaities only don't dispute us on the text of the Tanakh and the location of the Beith HaMikdash; the modern day Samaritans dispute us on both and this goes back further than the Karaites.

    In a private forum I can show the sources for this, so it doesn't detract from the pont of this thread. I used to keep up with various information about them and I have a drive at home where kept it.

    The vast majority of Christians are not Jewish because they have no Jewish ancestry of any sort. The few who do either came from families that seperated themselves from Jewish communities, were forced into being Christian, or are recent converts and thus have seperated themselves out. (which is one of the halakhic signs of a heretic)

    Again, it matters in the context because both Samaritans and Karaites come up on some of the claims that some Christians make as a way of proving that Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews are misguided. I will be bringing up what this arguement is in my further posts. I.e. you can't get from Christianity/NT to the Tanakh. There is no path that gets one there historically or textually.
     
  16. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify a bit. I think I need to break down the following statement a bit.

    I wrote earlier:
    Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews i.e. [Mizrahim-Teimanim-Sephardim-Askenazim-Hasidim-Hareidim-Orthodox-Ethiopian Jews], Karaites, or Shomronim (Samaritans); all groups even with their differences agree on the basic details of “Matan Torah at Mount Sinai” i.e. the “Giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai.”​

    What this means is, in the modern time, there are only three groups who "claim" descent from Israelis/Jews who received the Torah from Hashem at Mount Sinai. These groups are:
    1. Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews i.e. [Mizrahim-Teimanim-Sephardim-Askenazim-Hasidim-Hareidim-Orthodox-Ethiopian Jews]
    2. Karaites
    3. Modern day Shomronim (Samaritans)
    Karaites and Modern day Shomronim (Samaritans) are not listed under Torath Mosheh. The point here is that these are the only surviving groups who make the claim about having ancestry from Mount Sinai. They have claims that I analyze for the following reasons.

    This point is important when we get into the the questions of, "What happened to the Jewish follwers of Jesus? Why is there no 2nd Temple period till now sect of Jewish Christians? Why is that the Samaritans and the Karaites survived a lot longer than the Jewish Christans?" The existance of these two groups is critical to understanding what doesn't make sense about various NT claims that state that there were thousands of early Jewish Christians. This is especially of interest, for me, since the NT gives some insights into what may have happened to them.
     
  17. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    See, this is exactly what's bothering me: you're putting both Shomronim and Karaites in the same basket, as though they are actually comparable, which I don't think is correct. Sure, when we get down to the details, as Orthodox Jews, we don't view other denominations or sects of Judaism as acceptable in the fullest extent, but what you're doing is suggesting that Karaites, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal etc, and even Secular, and Shomronim are all somehow comparable. The exact same argument can be made with Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'ism. Now, I don't think you're attempting to suggest that, which is why I have yet to understand why you included in your list of Sinai-adherents the Shomronim.

    As an aside, I also find it surprising that you, as a non-Ashkenazi, use as a fall-back, the Ashkenazi view held by some Ashkenazim that Karaites aren't Jews. Ironic, or as they say, עולם הפוך ראיתי... :sweatsmile::sweatsmile:
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the halakha concerning Hereetics, they are both in the same basket as types of minut. I.e. as groups they both reject Torath Mosheh Halakha and try to make up their own in its place. According to Mishnah Torah and Shulchan Aruch until they make shuva they are Minim, Eporkusim, Meshumadim, etc. which are all types of minuth.

    They are different types of Heretics but at the end of the day while they maintain their minut the din is the same for them. If they make shuva, one group may have to go through a full giyyur while the other may have to go through the giyyur lechumra. It depends on their family situation is and given that some modern day Samaritans have Jewish mothers - who married into their communities that would make them halakhically Jewish but some would consider them tinuk hanishba no different than someone who grew up with a Jewish mother married to a Karaite.

    Do they have the same histories? Of course not. Is the result of their minut the same. Yes. That is the real halakhic concern.

    You have to remember, my rule is I accept the truth from whichever path it comes. I learn from all sources, including Ashkenazi ones. The truth is not found in only one community, it is collectively in all Torath Mosheh communities, which includes Ashkenazim.

    I am not using the view held by "some" Ashkenazim to consider the Karaites to not be Jews, I am stating that it exists. I.e. there are some rulings that come particular Rabbis and Poskim that are not accepted accross the board by people who don't hold by those rabbis or poskim.

    Besides, remember I said it depends on which Karaites we are talking about. There are some people, even Sephardi, who wouldn't bother with trying to figure out and would require them to do a giyyur. It is easier that way. Yet, most Sephardim I know would not marry a Karaite in the first place.

    Actually, according to halakha their "minut" is the same. What you do with them "IF" they make shuva may be different depending on their family history. I.e. a Reform Jew who does not have a Jewish mother will have to do a giyyur no different than a Shomroni who decides to live as a Torah based Jew. A Conservative Jew, whose parents did not marry with a valid ketuba may have to do a giyyur le'chumra similar to "some" Karaites. I.e. they would go before a Beith Din and agree that they adhere to the Torah Shebaal Pe as well as the written Torah.

    Essentially, all minut is compariable. Yet, what you do about the individuals caught up in it differs. For example, someone who converted through the Reform Movement and finds out that it is not true will have to do the same conversion that a Shomroni who realizes that their sect is not Torath Mosheh. A person who born Jewish, but knows nothing about Torah may have the same challenges when they get married as someone who is a Karaite from a known family. The source of the problem is the same, minut.
     
  19. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand your point here.

    Christans, Muslims, and Baha'i as far as I have seen don't claim to have a mesorah coming from ancesotors they had at Mount Sinai. They all though rely on Torath Mosheh/Judaism to make their claims where the reverse is not true.

    Because an outsider, not being connected to any side, would only come to the conclusion that there are only three paths that "potentially" get you back to Mount Sinai. Yet, the Christans would not come up as one of those paths for reasons I will explain soon. What have provide until now is the groundwork for that point.

    As I mentioned in my earlier post:

    This point is important when we get into the the questions of, "What happened to the Jewish follwers of Jesus? Why is there no 2nd Temple period till now sect of Jewish Christians? Why is that the Samaritans and the Karaites survived a lot longer than the Jewish Christans?" The existance of these two groups is critical to understanding what doesn't make sense about various NT claims that state that there were thousands of early Jewish Christians. This is especially of interest, for me, since the NT gives some insights into what may have happened to them and their movement fell apart within 2 generations.
     
  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Yet, consider why those denominations or sects are not considered acceptable, as you mention. One very clear reason is that if they are only a few hundred years old and if they are not found across the Jewish world - there is no way one could consider them acceptable simply on the historical level. I.e. if they are only a few hundred years old and they originate ONLY in some regions with no historical predecessors then one can easily conclude that they are not Torath Moshe i.e. they are not Torah from Mosheh/Har Sinai.

    So, even if said groups were to claim to be Judaism, or a least a type of it, they would never be able to say they are Torath Mosheh because the meaning of the statement would give away that the don't meet it as a standard. For example, Reform, Conserative, Reconstructionist, and even the Messianics claim to be Judaism but you won't find any of them claiming to be Torath Mosheh - even in passing.
     
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