Sign of the prophet Jonah

[JerryMyers]

‘Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

 

[pearl]

Jonah prayed to the LORD, his God, from the belly of the fish:

3 Out of my distress I called to the LORD,

and he answered me;

From the womb of Sheol I cried for help,

and you heard my voice Jonah 2:3-4

Originally from Q, the sign was simply Jonah’s preaching to the Ninevites, Matthew here adds Jonah’s sojourn in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, a prefigurement of Jesus’ sojourn in the abode of the dead. The book of Jonah is about mercy and the redemption of all.

As for the 'three days', not to be taken literally, the motif presents underlying significance for the history of salvation.
"On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes...." (Gen ii:4)
"On the morning of the third day there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain.." (Exod 19"16) the introduction of God on Mount Sinai.
"On the third day joseph said to them "Do this and you will live (Gen 42:18).
"And Jonah was in the bely of the fish three days (Jonah 1:17) before he was saved.
On the third day Esther put on her royal robes (Esther 5"1) after which Israel was saved out of its bitter affliction.
And Hosea "After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up. (Hos 6:2).
According to rabbinical comment on on this in the
Midrash Rabba: "The Holy one, Blessed be his name, never lets the just stay in affliction longer than three days."

 

[MNoBody]

this appears to be purely astrological, that has been couched in theological terminology.
but then that has been the way of all religions to conceal the heart of their lore in a "profane" tale for the outsiders.

 

[Thief]

‘Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

always did wonder about that episode.......so try this

Jonah convinces the crew.....the hardships are brought on by his presence
as he, Jonah, is travelling to escape from service to the Lord
and he tells the crew ....throw me over to the sea
it's the only way to survive

they do so

and they witness as Jonah is taken by a fish

well.....that could have been a shark
and the crew might have assumed Jonah was devoured

so when Jonah washes up on shore three days later.......a miracle

he survived

yeah I know....stretching the facts
but I wasn't there

 

[JerryMyers]

Jonah prayed to the LORD, his God, from the belly of the fish:

3 Out of my distress I called to the LORD,

and he answered me;

From the womb of Sheol I cried for help,

and you heard my voice Jonah 2:3-4

Originally from Q, the sign was simply Jonah’s preaching to the Ninevites, Matthew here adds Jonah’s sojourn in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, a prefigurement of Jesus’ sojourn in the abode of the dead. The book of Jonah is about mercy and the redemption of all.

As for the 'three days', not to be taken literally, the motif presents underlying significance for the history of salvation.
"On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes...." (Gen ii:4)
"On the morning of the third day there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain.." (Exod 19"16) the introduction of God on Mount Sinai.
"On the third day joseph said to them "Do this and you will live (Gen 42:18).
"And Jonah was in the bely of the fish three days (Jonah 1:17) before he was saved.
On the third day Esther put on her royal robes (Esther 5"1) after which Israel was saved out of its bitter affliction.
And Hosea "After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up. (Hos 6:2).
According to rabbinical comment on on this in the
Midrash Rabba: "The Holy one, Blessed be his name, never lets the just stay in affliction longer than three days."

Interesting comment.
Are you saying the sign of Jonah as given by Jesus, is a sign of survival rather than a sign of death and resurrection? That is, God did answer Jesus’ prayer to be saved just as He had answered Jonah’s prayer and saved Jonah from certain death.

 

[JerryMyers]

always did wonder about that episode.......so try this

Jonah convinces the crew.....the hardships are brought on by his presence
as he, Jonah, is travelling to escape from service to the Lord
and he tells the crew ....throw me over to the sea
it's the only way to survive

they do so

and they witness as Jonah is taken by a fish

well.....that could have been a shark
and the crew might have assumed Jonah was devoured

so when Jonah washes up on shore three days later.......a miracle

he survived
yeah I know....stretching the facts
but I wasn't there

No, you are not stretching the facts - that probably what happened. I think the similarity between Jonah and Jesus in that ‘sign of Jonah’ episode is that both prayed to God to be saved and God did answer their prayers and save them, that is, both are not killed, contrary to what people had perceived. If Jesus was not killed, then he didn’t die and if he did not die, he certainly did not rise from the dead.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

‘
In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

And when Dorothy chants "There's no place like home." was she referring to Kansas or to the "lowly thatched cottage" in the John Howard Payne song. So many unanswerable questions.

 

[Thief]

if he did not die, he certainly did not rise from the dead.

that would seem fair enough on the surface
good point

I did stretch the details on the Jonah story
but I did so to shift perspective
after all.......a fish large enough to swallow a man
and he survived it?

and compared to a flogging that should have killed (forty lashing is a death sentence)
followed by crucifixion
and three days burial

both men should have been dead

both men were seen afterward...up and moving

 

[Miken]

‘Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

Since Matthew is fanatical about the resurrection, patching up what he saw as deficits in Mark's story and has repeatedly stated that Jesus will be killed and raised, I see no reason to think that Matthew meant anything other than that. If you want to know what a writer meant, start with reading what he wrote.

 

[pearl]

Are you saying the sign of Jonah as given by Jesus, is a sign of survival rather than a sign of death and resurrection?

Jesus is asked for a sign that his power is from God and not Satin. He refers to the parable of Jonah. What may be gleaned from this;
-the uselessness of looking for spectacular signs ((v39), Jonah's fate as a type of Jesus' resurrection (v40), the importance of preaching and repentance (v41), the quest for divine wisdom (v42), Jesus is greater than previous prophets and wise men (vv41,42),

 

[JerryMyers]

Since Matthew is fanatical about the resurrection, patching up what he saw as deficits in Mark's story and has repeatedly stated that Jesus will be killed and raised, I see no reason to think that Matthew meant anything other than that. If you want to know what a writer meant, start with reading what he wrote.

That’s true, but then, what the writer meant to write does not always mean that’s what actually happened.

 

[JerryMyers]

..... Jonah's fate as a type of Jesus' resurrection (v40),

That cannot be true as Jonah was not killed to begin with. When Jesus gave the ‘sign of Jonah’, he was drawing similarities on the ‘state of existence between reality and perception’ between himself and Jonah. The similarities are:

- For 3 days and 3 nights, both Jesus and Jonah have disappeared from the public view.

- For 3 days and 3 nights, Jonah’s people have perceived he was killed and died in the sea just as for 3 days and 3 nights, the people have perceived Jesus was killed on the cross and laid dead in the tomb when the reality was, Jonah was not killed and was very much alive just as Jesus was not killed and was very much alive.

- Jonah then appeared to his people very much alive proving he was not killed when he was thrown into the rough sea and swallowed by a big fish just as Jesus appeared to his people very much alive, proving he was indeed saved by God from a humiliating death on the cross.

In other words, the sign of Jonah was not about Jesus’ resurrection, but the sign of Jonah was about his ‘state of existence - between reality and perception’. Jonah, by the Will of God, was saved from what would be a certain death just as God had saved Jesus from being crucified of which would be a certain death too.

 

[user4578]

In other words, the sign of Jonah was not about Jesus’ resurrection, but the sign of Jonah was about his ‘state of existence - between reality and perception’.

It's the part about Jonah being saved from the 'belly of hell'; it's an analogy.

 

[pearl]

and compared to a flogging that should have killed (forty lashing is a death sentence)

In order for death by crucifixion the number of lashes was 39. While it may be unlikely for the Romans to be concerned with Jewish law, Deut.25:3 - states that a criminal should not receive more than forty lashes. In order to avoid possibly accidentally breaking this command, the Jews would only give a criminal 39 lashes. Ironically, the only reason I remember this is from counting the lashes while listening to the rock musical 'Jesus Christ Superstar', the part of Jesus was John's Gospel verbatim.

 

[Thief]

In order for death by crucifixion the number of lashes was 39. While it may be unlikely for the Romans to be concerned with Jewish law, Deut.25:3 - states that a criminal should not receive more than forty lashes. In order to avoid possibly accidentally breaking this command, the Jews would only give a criminal 39 lashes. Ironically, the only reason I remember this is from counting the lashes while listening to the rock musical 'Jesus Christ Superstar', the part of Jesus was John's Gospel verbatim.

I have a copy....I do karaoke

I seem partial to Pilate's Dream

as for the flogging.......
Pilate was hoping the Carpenter would fail at the whipping post
39 dealt.....was not a death sentence
and Pilate would not have sent the Man to His death
it would have been too bad.....He couldn't take His punishment

but He took it

and the Pharisees still wanted Him dead

next step.....condemnation
under a false accusation

 

[pearl]

- For 3 days and 3 nights, both Jesus and Jonah have disappeared from the public view.

But there are not 'three' days between the D/R..

 

[Miken]

That’s true, but then, what the writer meant to write does not always mean that’s what actually happened.

Matthew was clearly reacting to Mark's minimalist story - no Jesus in sight, some stranger says he went to Galilee. The End. Sounds a lot like a grave robbery and a shill telling a tale.

 

[JerryMyers]

It's the part about Jonah being saved from the 'belly of hell'; it's an analogy.

Well, I think it is what Jesus said it is – a sign. A ‘sign’ is a form of a hint or an indication and in this case, it’s a sign that Jesus will indeed be saved by God from being crucified and going through a humiliating death on the cross just as Jonah was saved from death after being thrown into the rough sea and swallowed by a big fish.

 

[JerryMyers]

But there are not 'three' days between the D/R..

I think Christians believe the ‘3 days and 3 nights’ refer to the time Jesus’ body was in the tomb and they assumed Jesus had risen from the dead when Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty on the third day, that is, still within the 3 days.

That ‘Jesus has risen from the dead’, if taken literally, would always be an assumption as preached by the church rather from the scripture itself.

 

[JerryMyers]

Matthew was clearly reacting to Mark's minimalist story - no Jesus in sight, some stranger says he went to Galilee. The End. Sounds a lot like a grave robbery and a shill telling a tale.

Yes, resurrection would be the last thing on anyone’s mind if he/she found the grave or the tomb of his/her beloved one empty. Mary Magdalene and the other disciples’ reactions never indicated that they are seeing a ‘resurrected’ Jesus Christ, let alone, seeing a God. Worthy to note too, that Jesus himself has never mentioned anything about his ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ when he met his disciples after his supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’.