Sign of the prophet Jonah

[Deeje]

‘Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

Some context is in order I think....

Matthew 12:33-41....In speaking of the Pharisees, Jesus said....
“Either you make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

38 Then as an answer to him, some of the scribes and the Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet. 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. 41 Men of Ninʹe·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at what Joʹnah preached. But look! something more than Joʹnah is here."

In context these wicked men wanted Jesus to perform some miraculous sign for them, but he refused, instead telling them that the only sign they would see was the fact that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for the same period of time.

Jonah was confined in the belly of that fish, just as Jesus was confined in the tomb (donated by Joseph of Arimathea) dispelling the idea that he was resurrected before that third day.

His resurrection took place three days after his death, because it was not according to belief in an immortal soul, (not a Bible teaching) but a true resurrection that Jesus experienced. People have lost the meaning of that word IMO. It means a restoration of life...not a continuation of such. For parts of three days and nights therefore, Jesus was dead.

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus who had died, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. His "soul" had not gone anywhere as Jesus said that he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) Lazarus was not conscious of being anywhere during those 4 days. Jews believed that the dead were "conscious of nothing". They have no ability to think or plan or to do anything. They are in an unconscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) As a Jew, Jesus also believed this.

 

[Thief]

Jesus himself has never mentioned anything about his ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ when he met his disciples after..............

He did say something about.....tearing down this temple
and it would be restored

the people there were confused
it took years to build the temple in the holy city

but He wasn't talking about that

 

[Thief]

They are in an unconscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) As a Jew, Jesus also believed this.

and some speculation on that state.....

Lazarus may have been in a coma
and a defined condition of death was not well known

it seems.....taking a pulse was not common

 

[Deeje]

and some speculation on that state.....

Lazarus may have been in a coma
and a defined condition of death was not well known

it seems.....taking a pulse was not common

It seems as though you are calling Jesus an idiot....you think he didn't know that Lazarus was dead?

It's the very reason why he delayed his visit to Lazarus' home.....not so he could cure Lazarus of his sickness, but so he could demonstrate the resurrection.

"So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” (John 11:3-4)

Martha's response to seeing Jesus indicates that they knew that Lazarus was dead......
"Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." (John 11:21)

All of the resurrections performed in the Bible were back to this life, not flitting off to heaven. In fact no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

It was never God's intention to take any humans to heaven the first place. Why would he? God already had a large spiritual family in heaven, created long before he made the material Universe.

The only reason for Christ to come and redeem mankind and take a small number to heaven to rule with him in his Kingdom, is because Adam messed everything up by making a really bad choice. The whole outcome of the Edenic scenario was resting on his shoulders.....if he had chosen differently, there would have been an entirely different outcome.....this is the exercise of free will.....we all have it, but we need to learn to drive it......are we any better at it than Adam was? Apparently most of mankind learned nothing about obedience and loyalty to their Creator.....

What do you think this life is for?

 

[JerryMyers]

Some context is in order I think....

Matthew 12:33-41....In speaking of the Pharisees, Jesus said....
“Either you make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

38 Then as an answer to him, some of the scribes and the Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet. 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. 41 Men of Ninʹe·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at what Joʹnah preached. But look! something more than Joʹnah is here."

In context these wicked men wanted Jesus to perform some miraculous sign for them, but he refused, instead telling them that the only sign they would see was the fact that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for the same period of time.

Jonah was confined in the belly of that fish, just as Jesus was confined in the tomb (donated by Joseph of Arimathea) dispelling the idea that he was resurrected before that third day.

His resurrection took place three days after his death, because it was not according to belief in an immortal soul, (not a Bible teaching) but a true resurrection that Jesus experienced. People have lost the meaning of that word IMO. It means a restoration of life...not a continuation of such. For parts of three days and nights therefore, Jesus was dead.

When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus who had died, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. His "soul" had not gone anywhere as Jesus said that he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) Lazarus was not conscious of being anywhere during those 4 days. Jews believed that the dead were "conscious of nothing". They have no ability to think or plan or to do anything. They are in an unconscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) As a Jew, Jesus also believed this.

Even in context, the sign of Jonah was not about Jesus’ death and resurrection as Jesus was never killed as Christians believe, just as Jonah was not killed as people would have believed after being swallowed by a big fish. The fact that Jesus chose to give the sign of Jonah, knowing very well Jonah was not killed nor was he raised from the dead, tells us Jesus was not hinting of his future ‘death or resurrection’, but rather he was hinting that he will be perceived as being crucified and died on the cross when the reality is he will be saved by God from the crucifixion and humiliating death on the cross just as Jonah was saved from certain death after being swallowed by a big fish.

As for “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”, well, we know Jesus loves to talk figuratively, thus, in saying ‘in the heart of the earth’ Jesus could only mean that he will be out of sight for three days and three nights just as Jonah was out of sight (in the belly of a huge fish) for three days and three nights. Moreover, lying in a tomb can hardly be described as ‘in the heart of the earth’!

 

[JerryMyers]

He did say something about.....tearing down this temple
and it would be restored
the people there were confused
it took years to build the temple in the holy city
but He wasn't talking about that

If you are referring to John 2:19 “…Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”, then, you should know that Jesus was making a hyperbole statement when he said that. In context, Jesus was clearing the temple and this upset the Jews who asked him, under whose authority was he doing this and Jesus responded with a hyperbole statement, that is, an exaggerated response to make a point that his authority came from God as only with God’s authority, can he raise a destroyed temple in three days.

AND Jesus was NOT talking about his body either. In context, John 2:21-22 is so out of place, that one can only conclude that those views are the author’s own personal understanding. Clearly, Mark, Matthew and Luke does not share that same understanding.

 

[pearl]

AND Jesus was NOT talking about his body either. In context, John 2:21-22 is so out of place, that one can only conclude that those views are the author’s own personal understanding. Clearly, Mark, Matthew and Luke does not share that same understanding.

It is a perfect example of, in this case, taking a saying of Jesus from a source of Jesus sayings, 'Q' , and these sayings are used at the discretion and serve the purpose of the gospel authors, decades later.

 

[Thief]

you think he didn't know that Lazarus was dead?

He said.....he only sleeps

 

[Thief]

Clearly, Mark, Matthew and Luke does not share that same understanding.

in more ways than one

 

[Deeje]

Even in context, the sign of Jonah was not about Jesus’ death and resurrection as Jesus was never killed as Christians believe, just as Jonah was not killed as people would have believed after being swallowed by a big fish. The fact that Jesus chose to give the sign of Jonah, knowing very well Jonah was not killed nor was he raised from the dead, tells us Jesus was not hinting of his future ‘death or resurrection’, but rather he was hinting that he will be perceived as being crucified and died on the cross when the reality is he will be saved by God from the crucifixion and humiliating death on the cross just as Jonah was saved from certain death after being swallowed by a big fish.

The “sign of Jonah” had nothing to do with Jonah dying. It was illustrative of his confinement inside the belly of the fish. Jesus was confined in the grave....in death.

If Jesus was not killed and raised from the dead then all humanity is still stuck with the sin of Adam, with no redemption. If you want to believe that, and ignore all of what scripture says about that....not my problem.
You just cancelled out the whole reason for his earthly life and death.

As for “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”, well, we know Jesus loves to talk figuratively, thus, in saying ‘in the heart of the earth’ Jesus could only mean that he will be out of sight for three days and three nights just as Jonah was out of sight (in the belly of a huge fish) for three days and three nights. Moreover, lying in a tomb can hardly be described as ‘in the heart of the earth’!

When Jesus said that he would be “in the heart of the earth” (in the grave) he meant it. Jonah was in the belly of the fish, confined with no way out until God caused his release.....Jesus’ only way out of death was also dependent on his Father raising him back to life.....not taking back the body he sacrificed, but giving him a new spirit body, like he had before he took up his earthly assignment.

You demonstrate no understanding of the “ransom”. (Matthew 20:28).....or the principle behind “redemption.”

Is this your personal belief?.....or is it shard by others?

 

[Deeje]

He said.....he only sleeps

Yes he did, but he also stated that Lazarus had “died”. (John 11:11-14) It was the apostles who misunderstood his words....are you making the same mistake?

Death is death......it is the cessation of life, not the continuation of life in another form, in another place. That is not a Bible based belief. It is rife in paganism however, and was adopted by Jews and later by Christians as apostasy set in, as Jesus foretold. It is a false hope.....but it appeals to those who have dear ones in death.

Whilst some find comfort in the belief that life goes on, this is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that death is like “sleeping”....there is no consciousness of anything, or ability to participate in life until God restores that life by resurrection. Immortality of the soul is not taught in scripture.

Think about it...if your loved ones were still alive in a spiritual realm, and they could look down on us and see all that was going on here in this world, please tell me how heaven could be a happy place, knowing what is happening, but unable to stop the pain and suffering of those they love?
Now put them to sleep in a perfectly peaceful state, unable to see or feel anything and therefore suffering no discomfort or stress on our account.

Resurrection in scripture is specific to a return to life out of death. All of the resurrections performed in scripture were a return to their former earthly life, returned to the arms of their loved ones. Imagine their joy at seeing them again....healthy and grateful to be reunited with them.

Jesus is the one who will call all the dead from their graves, back to this life to resume activities with their families on a new earth, with no pain and suffering or death....ever again. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4)

I know which scenario appeals to me.....what about you?

 

[74x12]

‘Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so’ as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

A and that's what the new Testament claims. Muslims claim the new Testament and old Testament have been altered and only Muhammad somehow knew what they used to teach. The Islamic claim seems preposterous to me.

One scripture that is really good proof Jesus really died is in Luke 24 when Jesus shows them (including doubting Thomas) the wounds in his hands and feet.

 

[Thief]

Yes he did, but he also stated that Lazarus had “died”. (John 11:11-14) It was the apostles who misunderstood his words....are you making the same mistake?

Death is death......it is the cessation of life, not the continuation of life in another form, in another place. That is not a Bible based belief. It is rife in paganism however, and was adopted by Jews and later by Christians as apostasy set in, as Jesus foretold. It is a false hope.....but it appeals to those who have dear ones in death.

Whilst some find comfort in the belief that life goes on, this is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that death is like “sleeping”....there is no consciousness of anything, or ability to participate in life until God restores that life by resurrection. Immortality of the soul is not taught in scripture.

Think about it...if your loved ones were still alive in a spiritual realm, and they could look down on us and see all that was going on here in this world, please tell me how heaven could be a happy place, knowing what is happening, but unable to stop the pain and suffering of those they love?
Now put them to sleep in a perfectly peaceful state, unable to see or feel anything and therefore suffering no discomfort or stress on our account.

Resurrection in scripture is specific to a return to life out of death. All of the resurrections performed in scripture were a return to their former earthly life, returned to the arms of their loved ones. Imagine their joy at seeing them again....healthy and grateful to be reunited with them.

Jesus is the one who will call all the dead from their graves, back to this life to resume activities with their families on a new earth, with no pain and suffering or death....ever again. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4)

I know which scenario appeals to me.....what about you?

God is Spirit
the sons of God are spirit

the kingdom is not of this world

resurrection is of spirit

 

[JerryMyers]

The “sign of Jonah” had nothing to do with Jonah dying. It was illustrative of his confinement inside the belly of the fish. Jesus was confined in the grave....in death.

Yes, that’s what I have been saying – the sign of Jonah had nothing to do with Jonah dying because Jonah was not killed as he was saved by God just as Jesus was not killed as he too was saved by God from the crucifixion and from having to go through a humiliating death on the cross.

If Jesus was not killed and raised from the dead then all humanity is still stuck with the sin of Adam, with no redemption. If you want to believe that, and ignore all of what scripture says about that....not my problem.
You just cancelled out the whole reason for his earthly life and death.

If you are really an avid Bible student as you claimed, then, read the Bible to understand and don’t just follow blindly what your church or what your scholars said. Unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus himself said he came to die for the sin of mankind, then, you are just an avid follower of what other people said, NOT what Jesus himself said. BTW, original sin and trinity are man-made doctrines and that’s why none of the prophets, including Jesus, ever preached them.

When Jesus said that he would be “in the heart of the earth” (in the grave) he meant it. Jonah was in the belly of the fish, confined with no way out until God caused his release.....Jesus’ only way out of death was also dependent on his Father raising him back to life.....not taking back the body he sacrificed, but giving him a new spirit body, like he had before he took up his earthly assignment.

If you are really an avid Bible student as you claimed, then, read the Bible to understand and don’t just follow blindly what your church or what your scholars said. Unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus himself said he came to die for the sin of mankind, then, you are just an avid follower of what other people said, NOT what Jesus himself said. BTW, original sin and trinity are man-made doctrines and that’s why none of the prophets, including Jesus, ever preached them.

You demonstrate no understanding of the “ransom”. (Matthew 20:28).....or the principle behind “redemption.”

Oh, so now you want to digress to Matthew 20:28 and talk about ‘ransom’ ? OK.
Because of your preconceived mind after being ‘taught’ so long that Jesus died for your sin, you understood “to give his life as a ransom for many” as Jesus came to die for all mankind sin as payment of a ransom to God, which is ridiculous as God don’t hold ransom on anyone. In context, Jesus was saying for one to lead, one must serve and not be like the Gentile high officials who instead of serving, they exercised authority over the people. So, Jesus too came to lead and serve his people through his preaching.
When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”, he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that by his preaching. It would be illogical to take Jesus’ words in Matthew 20:26 literally, especially when earlier, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ?? So, stop demonstrating zero understanding of what Jesus really said and stop listening to the words of other people, and start to understand the words of Jesus in context.

 

[JerryMyers]

One scripture that is really good proof Jesus really died is in Luke 24 when Jesus shows them (including doubting Thomas) the wounds in his hands and feet.

Luke 24 is a good proof that Jesus really died ?? Not really if you understand what it really said and what it did not really say.
Saying Jesus was showing his wounds in his hands is another good example of Christians making assumptions out of what the Scripture really said or did not say. Fact is, there’s no mention of any wound on Jesus’ hands or body in the whole passage of Luke 24. The same with John 20 when Jesus showed his hands to doubting Thomas. Christians just assume that Jesus was showing nail wounds on his hands when it’s highly likely Jesus was showing his unharmed hands to prove to his disciples, including doubting Thomas, that it was not him who was crucified. Likewise, if everyone believed they saw you being attacked and slashed in the arms days earlier, how else can you make them believe it was not you that they saw other than to show them your unharmed arms ? That’s exactly what Jesus did in Luke 24 with his disciples and in John 20 with the doubting Thomas.

 

[Deeje]

Yes, that’s what I have been saying – the sign of Jonah had nothing to do with Jonah dying because Jonah was not killed as he was saved by God just as Jesus was not killed as he too was saved by God from the crucifixion and from having to go through a humiliating death on the cross.

I'm sorry...what??? Jesus was saved from the crucifixion? Please show me where I might find such information....that he didn't die?

Jonah was a prophet who ran away from his assignment...the exact opposite to what Jesus did.
Why do you want to conflate the two accounts as if Jesus did not specify what he meant? It was about his time in the confines of the grave, like Jonah was in the confines of the fish.

If you are really an avid Bible student as you claimed, then, read the Bible to understand and don’t just follow blindly what your church or what your scholars said.

Can I ask you what you think you are doing? Who or what are you blindly following as you seem to cancel out anything in the Bible accounts that disagree with your personal view. Who else believes what you do?

Unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus himself said he came to die for the sin of mankind, then, you are just an avid follower of what other people said, NOT what Jesus himself said. BTW, original sin and trinity are man-made doctrines and that’s why none of the prophets, including Jesus, ever preached them.

Are you for real? Matthew 20:28 is Jesus himself saying that he came to give his life "as a ransom in exchange for many".

Because of your preconceived mind after being ‘taught’ so long that Jesus died for your sin, you understood “to give his life as a ransom for many” as Jesus came to die for all mankind sin as payment of a ransom to God, which is ridiculous as God don’t hold ransom on anyone.

LOL....do you understand what the redemption laws in Israel were all about? Sounds like you don't have a clue.
What is a ransom? It is an exact payment demanded for the release of a captive. Mankind are captives to sin and death, Jesus paid the exact price for our release. It was not God, but Adam who held his children for ransom. He caused them to be born captive to sin, with no way to pay the ransom themselves. God provided it to cancel the debt and set us free.

Redemption is what you can do at a pawn shop. The man gives you money for what your item is worth and then when you have accumulated enough funds, you go to the pawn shop, pay the man what you owe him and you get your item back. If you don't come up with the money within a specified time, he is entitled to sell it to reclaim his money.

Redemption for the human race required the life of a perfect human to offset the value of the perfect life that Adam lost for his children. God's law required equivalency..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life."
For those with the "heavenly calling" the apostle Paul wrote...
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God? Also, you do not belong to yourselves, 20 for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

Christ's blood paid the ransom....that was the price.

Perhaps your own preconceived notions are getting in the way of your own understanding...?

In context, Jesus was saying for one to lead, one must serve and not be like the Gentile high officials who instead of serving, they exercised authority over the people. So, Jesus too came to lead and serve his people through his preaching.

What Gentile High Officials might that have been? Jesus had much more to say about the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees, but he was not sent to correct them because they were incorrigible. He was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". (Matthew 23:37-39; Matthew 15:24)

When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”, he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that by his preaching. It would be illogical to take Jesus’ words in Matthew 20:26 literally, especially when earlier, in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ??

Seriously? Did you make that up? Jesus "gave his life".....If it was said that a man "gave his life" for his country.......what does it mean?

John 6:48-51...Jesus said....
"I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

Acts 5:27-31....When the apostles were arrested for preaching in Jesus' name...
"So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men. 30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

So, stop demonstrating zero understanding of what Jesus really said and stop listening to the words of other people, and start to understand the words of Jesus in context.

perhaps you need to take your own advice....

 

[JerryMyers]

IWhen Jesus said that he would be “in the heart of the earth” (in the grave) he meant it. Jonah was in the belly of the fish, confined with no way out until God caused his release.....Jesus’ only way out of death was also dependent on his Father raising him back to life.....not taking back the body he sacrificed, but giving him a new spirit body, like he had before he took up his earthly assignment.

Jesus was in that predicament because he was falsely accused of blasphemy by the Jews who just wanted to get rid of him, NOT that he willingly ‘sacrificed’ himself. He, in fact, had prayed to God to save him from this predicament, just as Jonah had prayed to God from the belly of the big fish, and God answered their prayers – that’s the sign of Jonah.

II'm sorry...what??? Jesus was saved from the crucifixion? Please show me where I might find such information....that he didn't die?

Where ?? Read your own Bible, read at what Jesus really said after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ to know if Jesus was crucified and died on the cross or not. Don’t just listen blindly at what your church told you.

IJonah was a prophet who ran away from his assignment...the exact opposite to what Jesus did.
Why do you want to conflate the two accounts as if Jesus did not specify what he meant? It was about his time in the confines of the grave, like Jonah was in the confines of the fish.

Well, Jesus did specify what he meant and that is, he will be out of sight (in the heart of earth) for three days and three nights just as Jonah was out of sight (in the belly of the fish) for three days and three nights… but you just can’t figure it out because you took his words literally. Can lying in a tomb be described as to be in the heart of earth ?? THINK !! Why would Jesus even say ‘in the heart of the earth’ if the sign of Jonah is just about the confinement of the grave ?? He could easily say ‘…..so would he son of man be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights’, but he did not because the sign of Jonah was not about the confinement of the grave or tomb, the sign of Jonah was about God saving him from the crucifixion and humiliating death on the cross just as God had saved Jonah from certain death when swallowed by a big fish.

ICan I ask you what you think you are doing? Who or what are you blindly following as you seem to cancel out anything in the Bible accounts that disagree with your personal view. Who else believes what you do?

On the contrary, I think the church have been cancelling anything that Jesus had been saying about himself that disagree with the church’s view of who Jesus is and it has been doing this for the last 2000 years. You know the sayings – if you keep telling lies time and time again, there will come a time when those lies will be accepted as the Biblical truths – and sadly that’s what the church have been doing to the Christians.

IAre you for real? Matthew 20:28 is Jesus himself saying that he came to give his life "as a ransom in exchange for many".

whoa, just because you cannot understand what a figure of speech is, that does not mean Jesus had to die for your sin.

ILOL....do you understand what the redemption laws in Israel were all about? Sounds like you don't have a clue.
What is a ransom? It is an exact payment demanded for the release of a captive. Mankind are captives to sin and death, Jesus paid the exact price for our release. It was not God, but Adam who held his children for ransom. He caused them to be born captive to sin, with no way to pay the ransom themselves. God provided it to cancel the debt and set us free.
Redemption is what you can do at a pawn shop. The man gives you money for what your item is worth and then when you have accumulated enough funds, you go to the pawn shop, pay the man what you owe him and you get your item back. If you don't come up with the money within a specified time, he is entitled to sell it to reclaim his money.

LOL… Clearly you don’t have a clue what a figure of speech is that you have to take everything in its literal sense. If I say ‘His mother make ice-cream cakes worth to die for’, do you understand that as you have to literally die to have the ice-cream cake ?? Give me a break ! And what God holds ransom on His own people and demanded His own prophet pay the ransom ?? Are you for real ??

IRedemption for the human race required the life of a perfect human to offset the value of the perfect life that Adam lost for his children. God's law required equivalency..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life."
For those with the "heavenly calling" the apostle Paul wrote...
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God? Also, you do not belong to yourselves, 20 for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)
Christ's blood paid the ransom....that was the price.

Jesus said that??? Or was that Paul’s words??? Never mind.

One really has to wonder if Jesus literally meant to say he came to pay ‘ransom’ for the sin of man, that is, by dying, then, why did he not say the same thing about who can enter the kingdom of heaven ?? Isn’t Jesus preaching on earth is only about leading mankind on to a path that leads to the kingdom of heaven ??? Sounds like Jesus wasted his time on earth preaching man to do the Will of God as the only way to the kingdom of heaven when, according to the Christians, all he has to do is just shed blood and die and presto, every man is on their way to the kingdom of heaven !!

IPerhaps your own preconceived notions are getting in the way of your own understanding...?

That would be a perfect summary of your understanding of what Jesus said.

IWhat Gentile High Officials might that have been?

“Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them” (Matthew 20:25) – that Gentile high officials ! You sure you are an avid Bible student ??? Sounds more like you are an avid follower of what other people said in and out of the Bible rather than what Jesus said in your own Bible.

IJesus had much more to say about the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees, but he was not sent to correct them because they were incorrigible.

Jesus was not sent to correct the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees ??

IHe was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". (Matthew 23:37-39; Matthew 15:24)

And the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees were NOT part of the ‘lost sheep of Israel’ ??? Really ?? Is that what the Bible said or is that what the church said ??

ISeriously? Did you make that up? Jesus "gave his life".....If it was said that a man "gave his life" for his country.......what does it mean?

Seriously? You still cannot understand what a figure of speech is ??? If a man is said to ‘give his life for his country’ it means the man is fully committed to defend and protect the sovereignty of his country. What do you think it meant ??? That the man must literally die for his country??

IJohn 6:48-51...Jesus said....
"I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

And you understood that literally ???

IActs 5:27-31....When the apostles were arrested for preaching in Jesus' name...
"So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men. 30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Did Peter meet Jesus after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ ?? I don’t recall Mark, Matthew, Luke or John reported any meeting between Peter and the ‘resurrected’ Jesus. So, if Peter have not met Jesus after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’, how could Peter know it was NOT Jesus who the Romans had crucified ??

If perhaps you need to take your own advice....

Of course, I practice what I preached, and that’s why I don’t simply listen blindly to the words of other people like you do.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus was in that predicament because he was falsely accused of blasphemy by the Jews who just wanted to get rid of him, NOT that he willingly ‘sacrificed’ himself. He, in fact, had prayed to God to save him from this predicament, just as Jonah had prayed to God from the belly of the big fish, and God answered their prayers – that’s the sign of Jonah.

Where ?? Read your own Bible, read at what Jesus really said after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ to know if Jesus was crucified and died on the cross or not. Don’t just listen blindly at what your church told you.

Well, Jesus did specify what he meant and that is, he will be out of sight (in the heart of earth) for three days and three nights just as Jonah was out of sight (in the belly of the fish) for three days and three nights… but you just can’t figure it out because you took his words literally. Can lying in a tomb be described as to be in the heart of earth ?? THINK !! Why would Jesus even say ‘in the heart of the earth’ if the sign of Jonah is just about the confinement of the grave ?? He could easily say ‘…..so would he son of man be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights’, but he did not because the sign of Jonah was not about the confinement of the grave or tomb, the sign of Jonah was about God saving him from the crucifixion and humiliating death on the cross just as God had saved Jonah from certain death when swallowed by a big fish.

On the contrary, I think the church have been cancelling anything that Jesus had been saying about himself that disagree with the church’s view of who Jesus is and it has been doing this for the last 2000 years. You know the sayings – if you keep telling lies time and time again, there will come a time when those lies will be accepted as the Biblical truths – and sadly that’s what the church have been doing to the Christians.


whoa, just because you cannot understand what a figure of speech is, that does not mean Jesus had to die for your sin.

LOL… Clearly you don’t have a clue what a figure of speech is that you have to take everything in its literal sense. If I say ‘His mother make ice-cream cakes worth to die for’, do you understand that as you have to literally die to have the ice-cream cake ?? Give me a break ! And what God holds ransom on His own people and demanded His own prophet pay the ransom ?? Are you for real ??

Jesus said that??? Or was that Paul’s words??? Never mind.

One really has to wonder if Jesus literally meant to say he came to pay ‘ransom’ for the sin of man, that is, by dying, then, why did he not say the same thing about who can enter the kingdom of heaven ?? Isn’t Jesus preaching on earth is only about leading mankind on to a path that leads to the kingdom of heaven ??? Sounds like Jesus wasted his time on earth preaching man to do the Will of God as the only way to the kingdom of heaven when, according to the Christians, all he has to do is just shed blood and die and presto, every man is on their way to the kingdom of heaven !!


That would be a perfect summary of your understanding of what Jesus said.


“Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them” (Matthew 20:25) – that Gentile high officials ! You sure you are an avid Bible student ??? Sounds more like you are an avid follower of what other people said in and out of the Bible rather than what Jesus said in your own Bible.

Jesus was not sent to correct the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees ??

And the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees were NOT part of the ‘lost sheep of Israel’ ??? Really ?? Is that what the Bible said or is that what the church said ??


Seriously? You still cannot understand what a figure of speech is ??? If a man is said to ‘give his life for his country’ it means the man is fully committed to defend and protect the sovereignty of his country. What do you think it meant ??? That the man must literally die for his country??


And you understood that literally ???


Did Peter meet Jesus after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ ?? I don’t recall Mark, Matthew, Luke or John reported any meeting between Peter and the ‘resurrected’ Jesus. So, if Peter have not met Jesus after the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’, how could Peter know it was NOT Jesus who the Romans had crucified ??


Of course, I practice what I preached, and that’s why I don’t simply listen blindly to the words of other people like you do.

Please tell me who else believes these things? Are you a “Lone Ranger”? A “one man band”? Are you single-handedly going to take your version of Christ’s message to the world? Do you know how many “Lone Rangers” there are out there?.....all convinced that somehow they alone have “the truth”......what makes you different?

I’m sorry but I find your views to be completely out of harmony with the entire narrative of the scriptures......but go in peace and believe as you wish.....it certainly is unique.

 

[JerryMyers]

Please tell me who else believes these things? Are you a “Lone Ranger”? A “one man band”? Are you single-handedly going to take your version of Christ’s message to the world? Do you know how many “Lone Rangers” there are out there?.....all convinced that somehow they alone have “the truth”......what makes you different?
I’m sorry but I find your views to be completely out of harmony with the entire narrative of the scriptures......but go in peace and believe as you wish.....it certainly is unique.

Hmmm… I am sure Jesus faced the same resistance and the Jews probably asked him the same questions about his teachings. The Jews in Jesus’ time cannot accept Jesus and his teaching because they are trapped in the traditional belief of their fathers and their forefathers just as the Christians today are trapped in the traditional belief of the church, and this belief can be traced back to the early church which had given priority to the preaching of Paul over the preaching of Jesus. A good example of this is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and this belief is central to Christianity today – a clear preaching of Paul and a far cry from Jesus whose central preaching is about a relationship with God Almighty and not about himself or any other individual. Christians seem to be ‘forced’ to accept this belief and make it central to the Christianity Faith today and Paul made very sure of this by saying “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith” – 1 Corinthians 15:14.

So, tell me, how can Christianity today be a true Faith when its very existence is dependent solely on the belief that a prophet has risen from the dead???

 

[Deeje]

Hmmm… I am sure Jesus faced the same resistance and the Jews probably asked him the same questions about his teachings.

Do you see yourself in the role of Jesus then? Who are you to tell others what Jesus did or did not do? What makes you right and everyone else wrong? What would be the point of that? Who is Jesus addressing at Matthew 28:19-20?...certainly not just one person.

The Jews in Jesus’ time cannot accept Jesus and his teaching because they are trapped in the traditional belief of their fathers and their forefathers just as the Christians today are trapped in the traditional belief of the church, and this belief can be traced back to the early church which had given priority to the preaching of Paul over the preaching of Jesus.

I agree that most people are trapped in the traditions of their forefathers, whether Jewish or those in Christendom....

In Christendom we see that the core of their beliefs, shared almost universally are not of biblical origin. The trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire to name a few. None of them were taught by Jesus, yet most will tell you that you can't be a Christian without those doctrines as central to the Christian faith. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I see the same trap set up by the devil to rely on "the traditions of men" to introduce (ever so gradually) things that were never part of Christ's teachings.

I see that a lot of people have an issue with Paul......I do not.

For starters, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that he inspired its writings, then if Paul was some sort of charlatan, why would he allow Paul's words to be in it? If this God has the power to create the Universe and to inspire his prophets to write scripture, how is his power lacking when it comes to what is included in his own instruction manual?

John 17:15-19...Jesus words...
"I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth."

Jesus sent the 12 into the world and after his death and resurrection, he also appointed Saul of Tarsus, the foremost persecutor of Christians to become a "chosen vessel" to take his message to the nations. Unlike the other apostles, Paul was educated, a former Pharisee and also a Roman citizen. He was used in places where a fisherman or a tax collector would have no credibility. He was up to preaching the Christian message to the Greek philosophers and did so expertly at the centuries-old Areopʹagus, or Mars Hill, once the open-air meeting place of the famed city’s supreme court, now was hardly more than a public forum, where in the better seats the proud, well-dressed, well-fed Epicureans would sit and then the serious-faced Stoics, followed by their pupils. Dionysius, a judge, also comes, taking a seat where he could hear all that Paul had to say. Finally a lady named Damaris takes a seat. (Paul’s speech on this occasion converted her to become a follower of Christ.) What an audience!—representatives of the judiciary, the intelligentsia and the society of this decadent metropolis of learning and culture.

The apostle Paul, a servant of Jehovah and now a disciple of Jesus Christ, is invited to speak. He is a small man, not much to look at and not richly dressed. Armed with the “sword of the spirit,” and with the spirit of Jehovah guiding him, Paul addresses the audience:.....and completely disarms them by referring to one of their own 'gods' (an unknown one) as the one he came to tell them about. (Acts 17:22-23)

I fail to understand how people can accuse Paul of being a false apostle. He taught nothing contrary to what Jesus had taught the other apostles. If anything he clarified many things and opened up a fuller understanding. If the apostles had God's holy spirit then why did they not expose Paul as a fraud? They accepted him as a Christian brother in the faith....and so do I.

A good example of this is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and this belief is central to Christianity today – a clear preaching of Paul and a far cry from Jesus whose central preaching is about a relationship with God Almighty and not about himself or any other individual. Christians seem to be ‘forced’ to accept this belief and make it central to the Christianity Faith today and Paul made very sure of this by saying “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith” – 1 Corinthians 15:14.

Unless you understand the mechanics of the ransom and the purpose of redemption after the fall in Eden, you cannot appreciate how vital Christ's death and resurrection are for our future.

The 12 appreciated that Christ had died and was resurrected and they wrote about it.
All four Gospel accounts tell of the fulfillment of Jesus’ words that he would be raised on the third day. The apostle Matthew reports that first an angel appeared and announced Christ’s resurrection to women two of whom Matthew named, that Jesus later appeared to these and that still later Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. (Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-8)
The physician Luke additionally tells of the resurrected Jesus comforting two of his disciples on the way to Emmaus, of another appearance to his disciples in Jerusalem and of his disciples seeing him borne up into heaven out of their sight. (Luke 24:1-53)

The apostle John gives us still more details about Jesus’ appearances after his resurrection. He tells of Jesus’ encounter with Mary Magdalene, of his appearing twice to his apostles and that at the second time Thomas was present and was convinced. (John 20:1-18) John also tells of Jesus’ appearance at the sea of Galilee, on which occasion he asked Peter three times whether he loved him or not. (John 21:1-24)

Additionally, the book of Acts tells us that Jesus “was taken up, after he had given commandment through holy spirit to the apostles whom he chose. To these also by many positive proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout forty days.” How much more emphatic, how much more convincing could the record be—“by many positive proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered”? (Acts 1:1-19)

Also, when choosing a successor to Judas, Peter stipulated that it had to be one who had been “a witness with us of his resurrection.” (Acts 1:20-22)

Did the apostles lie?

So, tell me, how can Christianity today be a true Faith when its very existence is dependent solely on the belief that a prophet has risen from the dead???

The "Christianity" you speak of is nothing of the sort.....it is "Christendom" and never the twain shall meet. But I have no idea where you are getting your information from, because it is not from scripture.

If you believe that the Bible is genuinely the word of God and not from men, you have to take it all as gospel...not just the bits that agree with what you want to believe. Its either ALL God's word...or none of it is.