Should we add plaques to statues of slave owners?

[Windwalker]

I'm proposing eliminating the glorification aspect for some, eg, Confederate soldiers.
As for Jefferson & his ilk, glorify with asterisk-worthy elaboration.
Don't silence.....converse.

okay, we're not in full disagreement then. I think the confederate statues are an easy case to remove. I'd question some others, and each would need serious discussion. John Calhoon for one, is being taken down, but he argued for and defended slavery, and was instrumental in the cause for the civil war.

We here in Mpls, renamed a lake that was named after him a few years ago, and a shopping plaza named after him will change their name now. People are taking this stuff seriously. And these cases are reasonable. There's no reason to honor their names, when they were instrumental in the unjust suffering of millions based on inhuman racist ideals.

But you will always have those who push beyond beyond that. But the extreme examples, doesn't mean the rest is loopy.

 

[sun rise]

I thought Rev would go for the Glasgow kiss.

I had to look that one up. @Revoltingest does not swing that way multiple not swinging.

Spoiler: One Urban Dictionary Definition

“Do yue want to get a Glasgow kiss, *tsk* da fuac I ain’t uglahy ! you are fouckin uglahy€!”

Glasgow kiss - Wiktionary

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Let's not throw in such exponents of nonviolence, freedom and racial equality like Churchill and Washington alongside oppressive colonialist warmongers like Gandhi.

I didn't say they're the same.

 

[Tambourine]

Thru a wormhole in space, I received a copy of the year
2257 Washington Post. Articles in it describe hyper-intelligent
bovine Ameristanians toppling statues of all who once ate
hamburgers & steaks, or wore leather shoes. Should we be
judged so harshly, even if we buy only free range meats?

Did you know that vegans exist in this Year of Our Lord 2020?

 

[Secret Chief]

We agree.
But when judging people of different times & ethics,
I do so by comparing them to their contemporaries.
The country's founders laid the groundwork in the
Constitution to eliminate slavery.

Thru a wormhole in space, I received a copy of the year
2257 Washington Post. Articles in it describe hyper-intelligent
bovine Ameristanians toppling statues of all who once ate
hamburgers & steaks, or wore leather shoes. Should we be
judged so harshly, even if we buy only free range meats?

Not all contemporaries thought the same though, so it is not just a matter of numbers. Many of the contemporaries of the Buddha were fine with animal sacrifices, he said otherwise.
No need to wait for the bovines of 2257; such judgments are being made now, by your contemporaries.

 

[Secret Chief]

I agree. They accomplished something truly positive even while being products of their times.

Statutes to southerners? What did they accomplish - they are losers. If we're going to build statues to losers who advocated something best left on the ash heap of history, then we need statues of Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Mussolini and the like (neatly avoiding invoking Godwin).

No, we should have a statue of Godwin!

 

[Tambourine]

You can't judge Stalin or Mussolini by the standards of our time. Imperialist conquest, genocide and politically motivated mass murder were still the norm in the 1930s after all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Did you know that vegans exist in this Year of Our Lord 2020?

You don't say!

 

[Revoltingest]

Not all contemporaries thought the same though....

I'm aware.
But norms do nonetheless change with the times.
I'd judge a slave holder in 2020 differently from one
in 1780. Their treatment of slaves would matter too.

 

[Koldo]

I'm proposing eliminating the glorification aspect for some, eg, Confederate soldiers.
As for Jefferson & his ilk, glorify with asterisk-worthy elaboration.
Don't silence.....converse.

Then just topple down the statues and leave them like that on the floor. It is easier than any other solution. That alone already gives a strong message.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then just topple down the statues and leave them like that on the floor. It is easier than any other solution. That alone already gives a strong message.

Easy is a secondary, not a primary goal.

 

[Koldo]

Easy is a secondary, not a primary goal.

Isn't the primary goal to no longer honor the people they portray? I would say that goal would also be accomplished.

 

[Revoltingest]

Isn't the primary goal to no longer honor the people they portray? I would say that goal would also be accomplished.

We'll agree to disagree about how best to do it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You can't judge Stalin or Mussolini by the standards of our time. Imperialist conquest, genocide and politically motivated mass murder were still the norm in the 1930s after all.

It does depend what we're remembering people FOR though.
Is anyone suggesting there are statues of Washington because he was a slave owner?
Or Julius Caesar?

 

[Tambourine]

It does depend what we're remembering people FOR though.
Is anyone suggesting there are statues of Washington because he was a slave owner?
Or Julius Caesar?

Do you think the Soviet Union remembered Stalin for his crimes against humanity?

It's an easy thing to say that we only remember tyrants for the good things they did. But if we do so, we are still glorifying them along with the bad things they did.

 

[Koldo]

We'll agree to disagree about how best to do it.

I don't know why. My suggestion accomplishes both the primary and the secondary goals effectively. Do you have some sort of hidden goal?

 

[idea]

Can you name any such statue where:

- we remember the history of what they did because of the statue,
- we would forget the history without a statue, and
- whatever important history we're trying to remember couldn't be commemorated in some replacement monument?.

The strangest thing we saw in China - Mao Zedong's Mausoleum - the people there still worship him, even though he killed millions. It is false history, propaganda, and this false history is propagated with statues and flags etc. that still fly for the guy.

 

[Thief]

Thieving?

but....I respect that

we are an economically based society

we constantly rob Paul to pay Peter

 

[Thief]

we should keep what has been erected.....in place

as reminder of the past

if we forget
we are doomed to repeat

 

[Tambourine]

I don't know why. My suggestion accomplishes both the primary and the secondary goals effectively. Do you have some sort of hidden goal?

He really does not seem to like it when property is damaged, unless it's the property of communists.