Should political ideology be demonstrated by Church authority? - Obama supporter refused communion

[Autodidact]

Here's what I don't get. The #1 best way to prevent actual (in your view) babies from actually being (in your view) killed, is birth control. Yet you oppose it. That seems illogical to me. Can you explain?

 

[lilithu]

We have to start somewhere.

I agree. So let's start with the people who are already here. Let's care about them first.

While it may be the case that a lot of anti-abortion people care, in all honesty, it isn't obvious. For the amount of time and resources and passion that goes into the abortion debate, I feel like we could have made some real headway in addressing poverty and other oppressions in society. One would think we could have worked on education reform so that kids learn how to think critically and make smart decisions, keep themselves out of trouble, get better jobs, and stay or lift themselves out of poverty.... Given that poverty and lack of education correlate most highly with abortion rates, one would think this would be something that both sides could agree to work together on.

 

[Autodidact]

I agree. So let's start with the people who are already here. Let's care about them first.

While it may be the case that a lot of anti-abortion people care, in all honesty, it isn't obvious. For the amount of time and resources and passion that goes into the abortion debate, I feel like we could have made some real headway in addressing poverty and other oppressions in society. One would think we could have worked on education reform so that kids learn how to think critically and make smart decisions, keep themselves out of trouble, get better jobs, and stay or lift themselves out of poverty.... Given that poverty and lack of education correlate most highly with abortion rates, one would think this would be something that both sides could agree to work together on.

Not to mention encouraging responsible family planning, which would of course help with all those other things. Yet they tend to be against that. Odd.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I agree. So let's start with the people who are already here. Let's care about them first.

Pro-lifers consider the unborn to already be "here".

 

[Autodidact]

So given that, why don't they want to pursue those actions that would actually reduce the actual number of actual abortions? If they care about what they say are actual babies, I mean?

 

[lilithu]

Pro-lifers consider the unborn to already be "here".

It still does not explain why you would care more about a six centimeter foetus than you do a six year old child who isn't getting enough food to learn properly or a 16 year old child who is in danger of turning to a life of crime.

 

[Autodidact]

For example, abortions are least common in Western European secular democracies. So if you're really anti-abortion, wouldn't you want to figure out why, and encourage those conditions? They're most common in Latin America, where of course most people are Catholic. Again, why do you think that is?

 

[blackout]

Any one who believes that women or men have "a right to choose to kill" the person they have conceived can not be in proper standing with the Church.

Your own god gives women and men "a right to choose to kill".
Do you see him stopping anyone?
Does he cast down lightening bolts on abotrtion clinics
that they be no more?
Or render expectant mothers to a state of immobility
on the day they plan to abort?
Do you not suppose he foresaw what would happen?
Could he not have prevented all this
by simply altering the whole biological system of conception?

I have said it before,
gOd IS pro-choice.

The proof?
We are all here making choices, unhindered by "him".
Day in... and day out.

And those of you who say all abortion should be illegal.
I want you to tell me what should happen to all the thousands of women
who will still ABORT ANYWAY.
Do they get thrown in jail?
For how long?
Do they get the death penalty?
Who is going to fund all of this?
Who will these women's pre existing children be raised by?,
when they are thrown in the slammer.

Just a few annoying nit picky details,
that SOMEONE will have to answer.
Why not you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The idea that putting a newly created human life to death, because its inconvenient and dependent on us, is a human right is incompatible with the constant teaching of the Christian religion.

I personally believe it's just as compatible to teach that abortion may be allowable under certain circumstances as it is to teach that war can sometimes be just.

Any one who believes that women or men have "a right to choose to kill" the person they have conceived can not be in proper standing with the Church.

But people who believe that men and women sometimes have "a right to choose to kill" a person who someone else has conceived can have proper standing without any issue.

 

[blackout]

*bump*

I'm still kinda hoping someone will address my questions in post #128

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I personally believe it's just as compatible to teach that abortion may be allowable under certain circumstances as it is to teach that war can sometimes be just.

Abortion is never an instance of self-defense. The analogy between abortion and just war is workable when the mother's life is in jepordy and the measures taken to save her life result in the death of the child- not because the child is inconvenient.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Abortion is never an instance of self-defense.

Arguably, in the Christian context, neither is war.

I've never been able to reconcile the idea that we need to go to war against the message that we should trust in God to provide for all our needs that is expressed in Matthew 6:25-34.

The analogy between abortion and just war is workable when the mother's life is in jepordy and the measures taken to save her life result in the death of the child- not because the child is inconvenient.

I think that "just war" doctrine allows for a much lower value to be placed on life than that inherent in the Church's stance on abortion.

The benefit associated with a tactical or strategic advantage, for instance, can sometimes be quite hard to define, but this tradeoff is often allowed under the pretext of "just war".

 

[Kathryn]

This argument would carry a lot more weight with me IF we treated the people who are already born as if their lives matter. If we tackled poverty, sexism, racism, war.... if we saw all those things (and more) as an affront to the sacredness of life and cared about them as much as some people care about abortion, then I could see proposing the above argument.

Lilithu, I understand your concerns about the issues you raise, and I promise you that I, and many other Christians, share your concerns for the living.

All of what I am talking about - the rights of the unborn AND the living - start with individuals protecting other individuals' lives and rights. And I think that a society that doesn't protect it's most defenseless members is shameful.

We need to each do all that we can in our daily lives to aliviate poverty, discrimination, and the trampling of basic human rights and dignity. I don't see how supporting the rights of the unborn contradicts this.

I support the sacredness of human life.

 

[Kathryn]

Here's what I don't get. The #1 best way to prevent actual (in your view) babies from actually being (in your view) killed, is birth control. Yet you oppose it. That seems illogical to me. Can you explain?

Was this question directed at me?

If so, here's my answer - if not, oh well.

I am not going to go into the whole birth control thing again on this post. I responded in depth repeatedly on this topic in the post "Contraception - what have you done for me lately?" and I'm tired of discussing it into the ground. I prefer to restrict my responses to this thread to the topic of abortion.

I am opposed to irresponsible sex between a man and a woman who do not take into consideration the possibility, even while using birth control, of creating a human life that they are NOT WILLING TO PROTECT, and who when faced with the predictable results of their sexual behavior, kill their unborn rather than accept responsibility for their actions.

Hey, news flash - sex between a man and a woman sometimes results in pregnancy. If you and your partner are capable of producing human life, you should be sure that you are both committed to sustaining that life that your actions created. That's my belief.

Obviously, I am not talking about restricting abortion when the life (as opposed to lifestyle) or health (as opposed to comfort) of the mother is genuinely at serious risk.

 

[Autodidact]

So are you for, or against, birth control?

 

[Kathryn]

So are you for, or against, birth control?

That's not the topic of this post. You know my position well, from the other thread. Go back and read my responses there if you're still unclear.

 

[Autodidact]

Is it all Christians who are evasive? I've been finding a persistent pattern of Christians who refuse to answer my simple, direct, polite questions. What's that about? Why are they so rude? Can anyone explain? I mean, this is supposed to be a board for debate and discussion, not evasion.

No, Kathryn, I don't know what your position is, or I wouldn't have asked. Call me stupid. Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Birth control: yes or no. Thank you.

 

[Kathryn]

Is it all Christians who are evasive? I've been finding a persistent pattern of Christians who refuse to answer my simple, direct, polite questions. What's that about? Why are they so rude? Can anyone explain? I mean, this is supposed to be a board for debate and discussion, not evasion.

No, Kathryn, I don't know what your position is, or I wouldn't have asked. Call me stupid. Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Birth control: yes or no. Thank you.

I respectfully direct you BACK to the thread, "Contraception - what have you done for me lately?" - a recent thread that you were very active on and that you are very familiar with. In that LONG AND DETAILED thread, I answered the question about my beliefs on birth control very concisely, as you know.

Peace.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sorry you lack the courtesy to answer my question, Kathryn, and will try not to make any generalisations based on your individual lack of manners.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm sorry you lack the courtesy to answer my question, Kathryn, and will try not to make any generalisations based on your individual lack of manners.

I'm not going to fall for such obvious bait, Auto. You'll have to go find someone else to play with.

Speaking of playing, I'm going to go spend some time with my husband.