Should Child Marriages be Banned Worldwide?

[SomeRandom]

I'm just going to stop right here. It really is impossible for some people to discuss this topic without bringing superfluous issues onto the scene. "Various ages?" What part of marrying under the age of 18 necessitates "various ages?"

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

But sure, if we're going to bring in nonsensical and superfluous issues, let's talk about domestic abuse and use that to make a case for outlawing all marriage. Because just like child marriages apparently require people between various ages, marriages apparently require some sort of domestic abuse. For reasons.

I would call an adult marrying a child “varying ages.”
Or are we discussing literally two children entering a legal marriage? That’s probably worse. Who’s supporting these kids? Who gives a child a full time job in order to support themselves?

Look, don’t get me wrong, if two “kids” (in this context, pubescent teenagers) were fooling around and they were roughly the same age or thereabouts, I could shrug it off pretty easily. Kids will experiment, even copy the adults around them. That’s fine.
But entering in a legal binding contract under the law? Should one not be at the very least 18?
And just for the record I do not consider teenagers to be children. They are adolescents. I could see myself turning a blind eye to a marriage between say a 17 year old and a 20 year old. One could argue that maturity levels vary so it’s not like I doubt there can be a little bit of leeway. 18 is typically the benchmark, but sometimes a person under that age can be very mature and reasonably informed. I can accept that.
But the OP specified child marriage, that is not child marriage.

But all the same you wouldn’t find me handing a 13 or 14 year old a pack of cigarettes, coffee or a bottle of wine. Nor would I expect a 13 or 14 year old to have a full time job. There are just certain things that have an age limit. Not just because of cultural standards, but things that have been demonstrated to be detrimental to developing minds/bodies are typically delayed under the law for their long term benefit.
Rebellious hijinks notwithstanding

It’s why we have informed consent laws, isn’t it?
It’s why we don’t hand the car keys off to our 10 year olds. Some things require maturity.
And a child is hardly the place to look for maturity. Least of all enough to maintain a freaking marriage.
(Apologies for the late reply. I got distracted.)

 

[Quintessence]

@SomeRandom - I agree there are certain things that have an age limit, so to speak, and there are two basic types.

First, there are age limits that exist because of real, physiological changes in the human body. I can't think of any example where these age limits are fixed. Human bodies change and mature at different rates, and have different natures for each individual, so they are only sort of age limits given one can't set some single number and expect everybody to conform to it (they won't).

Second, there are age limits that exist because reasons. Some human or group of humans decides somewhere that this thing should be done at this arbitrary age, because reasons. The reasons are subjectively determined and constructed to enforce a particular culture's social norms or values. Neither social norms nor values are universal across humans, nor do they remain fixed over time. That we're even having this conversation at all is a testament to that - our ancestors didn't have this artifice we call marriage. It would have been incomprehensible to them.

You're not going to convince me it makes sense to issue some international decree based on subjectively determined social norms that are not universal, not based in objective reality, and have changed dramatically over the course of human history and across cultures. And it's a moot point anyway. Nobody has this authority, and nobody can enforce it. At most, one can make some international body that agrees to abide by some particular social contract. They can't dictate something to the entire human world, and at any time any group saying they're going to follow that social contract can simply choose not to. Just as well. I'm not really a fan of dictatorships and the cultural erasure (or worse) that goes along with them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just recently a law allowing child marriage (at Puberty) to be legalized in Somalia has come under world scrutiny. The Religion of peace has been very silent with only international political groups reminding the Somalian Government of previous international agreements to preventing child marriages. Somalia is not the only country which acquiesce in child marriages. Should there be a worldwide ban on such a practice?
Bill endorsing child marriages in Somalia roundly condemned

Child brides are yet another way to subjegate women. As women are freed from patriarchy, these sort of things will come under scrutiny and be outlawed. So yes, I think that child marriages should be outlawed world wide, and by child marriages, I mean anyone under age 18.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If a child consents to marriage then what's the problem? We give "rights" to everyone except children.

That doesn't appear to be true.

If a child can "demand" transgender surgery now then why can't they marry any other boy or girl, or
adult man or woman? Remember, in a secular society there is no "right" or "wrong", just what is fashionable
at the time.

Ahh...well then, all bets are off. We might as well let them marry their dog if we're going to go all 'secular', right?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

And you believe that the people who are now okay with equality in marriage used to be against it five years ago?

I might have been against it 20 years ago, to be fair. Took me a while to unpick some of what I was taught in my youth.
I wasn't against homosexuals, or homosexual partnerships, but I might have very well been in the 'just give them a civil certificate' brigade. Now I'm very strongly in favour of it (marriage equality), because I became better at seeing the larger implications and commonalities of laws/rules/norms and how we see our society as a whole.

 

[Piculet]

Child brides are yet another way to subjegate women. As women are freed from patriarchy, these sort of things will come under scrutiny and be outlawed. So yes, I think that child marriages should be outlawed world wide, and by child marriages, I mean anyone under age 18.

And what right would your country have to decide for the age of marriage and adulthood for the rest of the world?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Define child.
And please be so kind as to do so in a manner that makes legal sense.
I mean, you are asking about a law be put in place, right?

Then define child marriage.
Again, in a manner that makes legal sense.
The whole proposed law thing, you know.

I get what you mean, and the premise of passing a 'worldwide law' is a little forced.
However, I think it's worth noting that an imperfect law in this case is preferable to no law (in my strong opinion).

So how about people over the age of 18 can marry another individual over the age of 18, assuming both parties are not already married.
People who are aged between 16-18 can seek a court order to allow marriage, and this would involve interviews/consent from their legal guardians, or the court determining their right to marry.
People who are under 16 cannot marry.

I can happily put as much legalese around that as you like, and will also take questions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ok, so, the real issue is the age difference, rather than the age both get married.
What if both love each other and chose to be with each other without anybody forcing them to get married? What if a 15 years old girl falls in love with a 30 or 40 years old man?

I think 15 year olds regularly 'fall in love' with 30 or 40 year old men. It's the actions of the 30 or 40 year old man I'd be more skeptical on.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And what right would your country have to decide for the age of marriage and adulthood for the rest of the world?

Did I say my country would decide it? No. I simply said the world would outlaw it eventually. It would be part of a global worldwide shift in consciousness about women.

 

[Heyo]

@SomeRandom - I agree there are certain things that have an age limit, so to speak, and there are two basic types.

First, there are age limits that exist because of real, physiological changes in the human body. I can't think of any example where these age limits are fixed. Human bodies change and mature at different rates, and have different natures for each individual, so they are only sort of age limits given one can't set some single number and expect everybody to conform to it (they won't).

Second, there are age limits that exist because reasons. Some human or group of humans decides somewhere that this thing should be done at this arbitrary age, because reasons. The reasons are subjectively determined and constructed to enforce a particular culture's social norms or values. Neither social norms nor values are universal across humans, nor do they remain fixed over time. That we're even having this conversation at all is a testament to that - our ancestors didn't have this artifice we call marriage. It would have been incomprehensible to them.

You're not going to convince me it makes sense to issue some international decree based on subjectively determined social norms that are not universal, not based in objective reality, and have changed dramatically over the course of human history and across cultures. And it's a moot point anyway. Nobody has this authority, and nobody can enforce it. At most, one can make some international body that agrees to abide by some particular social contract. They can't dictate something to the entire human world, and at any time any group saying they're going to follow that social contract can simply choose not to. Just as well. I'm not really a fan of dictatorships and the cultural erasure (or worse) that goes along with them.

The age for adulthood may be arbitrary - that's why I argue for binding marriage age to adulthood age. When in your society a sixteen year old is old enough to vote, drink and drive a car, she's old enough to marry.

 

[SomeRandom]

@SomeRandom - I agree there are certain things that have an age limit, so to speak, and there are two basic types.

First, there are age limits that exist because of real, physiological changes in the human body. I can't think of any example where these age limits are fixed. Human bodies change and mature at different rates, and have different natures for each individual, so they are only sort of age limits given one can't set some single number and expect everybody to conform to it (they won't).

Second, there are age limits that exist because reasons. Some human or group of humans decides somewhere that this thing should be done at this arbitrary age, because reasons. The reasons are subjectively determined and constructed to enforce a particular culture's social norms or values. Neither social norms nor values are universal across humans, nor do they remain fixed over time. That we're even having this conversation at all is a testament to that - our ancestors didn't have this artifice we call marriage. It would have been incomprehensible to them.

You're not going to convince me it makes sense to issue some international decree based on subjectively determined social norms that are not universal, not based in objective reality, and have changed dramatically over the course of human history and across cultures. And it's a moot point anyway. Nobody has this authority, and nobody can enforce it. At most, one can make some international body that agrees to abide by some particular social contract. They can't dictate something to the entire human world, and at any time any group saying they're going to follow that social contract can simply choose not to. Just as well. I'm not really a fan of dictatorships and the cultural erasure (or worse) that goes along with them.

I can agree that often the age restrictions for certain “actions” are often rather arbitrary.
I think there are people ready for marriage at age 16 and some who are not at 20.
I grew up drinking socially at family dinners/events. It certainly helped to wash away stigmas and I think I developed a healthy respect for the substance as a result. In doing so I probably broke the law, or at least exploited old loopholes.

But children. I feel rather protective of them. If a prepubescent child experiments sexually with a peer, usually a response by experts would be to investigate whether or not child sexual abuse was involved. Surely you agree that children (prepubescent) should not be subject to sexual abuse, correct? Under any circumstances.
Since marriage would necessarily include sexual relations, by any measure of the definition regardless of culture. Should we not be proactive and stunt potential child sexual abuse? Meaning child marriage by default?
Who cares if it goes against culture? I defy my culture in a number of ways because the rules are specifically abusive, imo
Should I be chastised for this behaviour?
If so, how would meaningful reform occur if no one did so in the first place?
Slavery was traditional and we spit on that legacy, did we not?
Segregation. Same sex marriage. Today we are arguing about the essence of femininity and masculinity. Is that not a sign of growth?
I think cultures worldwide should be challenged and brought to task. Providing it is not about something arbitrary. And I do not consider children entering sexual or legally binding relationships something arbitrary.

 

[McBell]

I get what you mean, and the premise of passing a 'worldwide law' is a little forced.
However, I think it's worth noting that an imperfect law in this case is preferable to no law (in my strong opinion).

So how about people over the age of 18 can marry another individual over the age of 18, assuming both parties are not already married.
People who are aged between 16-18 can seek a court order to allow marriage, and this would involve interviews/consent from their legal guardians, or the court determining their right to marry.
People who are under 16 cannot marry.

I can happily put as much legalese around that as you like, and will also take questions.

I was thinking along the lines of if one defines child in such a manner that those over 18 with the mentality of a 9 year old...
Two 17 year olds want to get married to each other?


It is really easy to simply declare "child marriage should be banned worldwide" and go back to your life as though your declaration actually does something.
But the actual implementation of such a ban is much much more complicated.

You did notice how the vast majority of members passed that post by without a second glance, right?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The age for adulthood may be arbitrary - that's why I argue for binding marriage age to adulthood age. When in your society a sixteen year old is old enough to vote, drink and drive a car, she's old enough to marry.

And when 16 is the age for driving and 21 is the age for drinking??? Driving a car is simply a skill oriented task. Drinking requires maturity. Perhaps you are right that marriage should be delayed until 21?

 

[Heyo]

And when 16 is the age for driving and 21 is the age for drinking??? Driving a car is simply a skill oriented task. Drinking requires maturity. Perhaps you are right that marriage should be delayed until 21?

Handling a one ton+ murder contraption does also take responsibility aside from skill. And, yes, when in your country people aren't trusted to responsibly drink, they shouldn't be trusted to make the choice for marriage.
All the freedoms should be there, not just one or two.

 

[Piculet]

Today we are arguing about the essence of femininity and masculinity. Is that not a sign of growth?

Why would it be?

 

[SomeRandom]

Why would it be?

Because to question is to learn, to learn is to grow.

 

[Mike.Hester]

Child marriage surges amid Covid-19 and growing conservatism - Indonesia at Melbourne


Indonesia is experiencing a surge in child marriages. By June, 24,000 applications for permission to marry underage had been lodged with district and religious courts this year – more than two and a half times the total number for the whole of 2012.

 

[Mike.Hester]

Child marriage surges amid Covid-19 and growing conservatism - Indonesia at Melbourne


Indonesia is experiencing a surge in child marriages. By June, 24,000 applications for permission to marry underage had been lodged with district and religious courts this year – more than two and a half times the total number for the whole of 2012.

 

[Hop_David]

Al Ghazali happened. I've posted this clip a few times but it's worth reposting ('till everybody gets it):

And, to make it back to the topic, the misogyny that is connected to child marriage holds back 50% of the population from being educated and contributing to the development of society.

The Tyson video you post is riddled with errors. However discussing the accuracy of Tyson's claims would be off topic in this thread.

See my comments on a more appropriate thread:

Tyson's video is riddled with false history.[/QUOTE}