Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus created a "new"religion [new covenant] which you can say as a government that will be in the future --on His timing. Jesus "created a religion" thats lasted over 2000 years and somehow this still isnt valid?

More than the bible speaks of His miracles and rising from the dead.

You don't have to be the Son of God or even crucified to create a new religion. It's not exactly a miracle.

 

[Charity]

You don't have to be the Son of God or even crucified to create a new religion. It's not exactly a miracle.

Would it be a miracle if you discredited an old religion?

 

[AK4]

You don't have to be the Son of God or even crucified to create a new religion. It's not exactly a miracle.

True, but as it states at the end of one the gospels that they couldnt record all of the things that Jesus in a book because it would fill up the world [paraphrased] and also some of the miracles were only unique to Jesus to further solidify Him as distinct from prior prophets [genuine or false] who came

 

[Charity]

True, but as it states at the end of one the gospels that they couldnt record all of the things that Jesus in a book because it would fill up the world [paraphrased] and also some of the miracles were only unique to Jesus to further solidify Him as distinct from prior prophets [genuine or false] who came

And after all the Son of God didn't create a new religion he just fulfilled the old one. Miracle?

 

[Autodidact]

See the validity of Jesus' and His Apostles writings as to prophecy exactly what you have said. The conflicting and contradictory happenings we witness and what started way back then was part of the plan of God. And part of His plan was that only a select few in this age would actually "get it". I will just paraphrase some verses

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword"---Jesus
"enemies will be of your own househole"---Jesus
"it is given unto YOU not THEM to know the mysteries of the Kingdom"----Jesus
""For many are called, but few {are} chosen." ---Jesus
"they will wax worse and worse"---Paul speaking of those ["christians"] who pervert the truth
"bring in damnable doctrines of devils"---Peter speaking of those ["christians"] who will pervert the truth


Etc etc etc. This is how it is supposed to be in this age. It was prophecied and brought to pass. So when looking at these facts there are only a few logical choices remaining:

• God is omnipotent, and can make it's will known to men by fulfilling His prophecies
• God is not incompetent, but omnipotent because no will of man thwarted His prophecies
• God is makes revelations to a few of mankind for those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear"
• All god concepts are not equally valid, especially the non-existence of god.
• There is a God.

Let me get what you're saying. NT prophecies are not fulfilled, and that is evidence that the NT is inspired by God? Am I reading you right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True, but as it states at the end of one the gospels that they couldnt record all of the things that Jesus in a book because it would fill up the world [paraphrased] and also some of the miracles were only unique to Jesus to further solidify Him as distinct from prior prophets [genuine or false] who came

Maybe, but did he ever make statues drink milk? You've got to admit - that's pretty unique.

 

[Autodidact]

You're kind of missing the point, it's not really important whether or not julius caesar lived. Because nobody is saying that julius caesar performed miracles. What's important is determining whether or not the things he said are of any value. Not to mention we actually have things that julius caesar wrote, we have text from his friends and family. He also created a form of government that lasted for hundreds of years. But nobody is claiming that he was born of a virgin, rose from the dead and performed miracles. Those claims need much more validation than just the bible's say so.

And we have coins and statues made during his lifetime. And he's referred to and chronicled in many other independent sources whose goal is not to advance his story. It's the totality of the evidence.

 

[Autodidact]

You have all the witnesses from the apostles to secualr writings even the jewish talmud of Jesus physically existing. Why is this not proof enough? Is it not the same as julius ceasars friends and family.

What did the apostles write? It is not at all clear that Jesus appears in the Talmud, there is a story about a guy named Yeshua (common name) that is similar to Jesus in some ways, different in more. So basically no, you don't have those things.

Jesus created a "new"religion [new covenant] which you can say as a government that will be in the future --on His timing. Jesus "created a religion" thats lasted over 2000 years and somehow this still isnt valid?

That's what we're trying to figure out. We know there's a religion; we're not so sure there's a Jesus.

More than the bible speaks of His miracles and rising from the dead.

Really? Please cite your sources.

 

[AK4]

And after all the Son of God didn't create a new religion he just fulfilled the old one. Miracle?

Amen:thud::clap

 

[AK4]

Let me get what you're saying. NT prophecies are not fulfilled, and that is evidence that the NT is inspired by God? Am I reading you right?

Alot of NT prophecies are being fulfilled if not already fulfilled [i.e. speaking in tongues already fulfilled, no longer going on]. And this is evidence that they were inspired of God

 

[AK4]

Maybe, but did he ever make statues drink milk? You've got to admit - that's pretty unique.

LOL
Wasnt that the Hindu [elephant or multi-armed?] god?

 

[Tristesse]

And after all the Son of God didn't create a new religion he just fulfilled the old one. Miracle?

And by "fulfilling" the old, he created a new. So, it is a new religion in every sense of the word.

 

[Tristesse]

Alot of NT prophecies are being fulfilled if not already fulfilled [i.e. speaking in tongues already fulfilled, no longer going on]. And this is evidence that they were inspired of God

You do realize that people who are "speaking" in tongues are literally speaking gibberish? They aren't speaking any identifiable language, it's literally nothing.

 

[Charity]

And by "fulfilling" the old, he created a new. So, it is a new religion in every sense of the word.

No it's just a sequel to an old book....

 

[Tristesse]

No it's just a sequel to an old book....

But the deity in the new sequel resembles nothing of the old, so in what way is it a continuation of the old? If there isn't any identifiable resemblance to the old, than by definition you have created a new.

 

[Charity]

But the deity in the new sequel resembles nothing of the old, so in what way is it a continuation of the old? If there isn't any identifiable resemblance to the old, than by definition you have created a new.

We still have the same God that we started out with, He just added a Son, a virgin mother, three wisemen and a group of 12 disciples. Call it new if you wish, but it's a story that is as old as time......

 

[tumbleweed41]

Conceptions of God held by individual believers vary so widely that there is no clear consensus on the nature of God. The Abrahamic conceptions of God include the trinitarian view of most Christians, the Yahweh definition of Judaism , and the Islamic concept of God. And within each of these is numerous conflicting definitions of God.
Some definitions of God are nonspecific, while other definitions can be self-contradictory.
And in all this, each 'believer' claims to 'know' that their concept of God is the correct one. Wars have been fought over whose concept of God was correct. There are martyrs for every concept of God, and for those who have no theistic beliefs at all.
And through all of these numerous god concepts, omnipotence is still claimed. Contradicting the fact that an omnipotent god would have the ability to make itself known through much better means than conflicting and vague revelations to a select few.
When looking at these facts, there are only a few logical choices remaining.

• God is not omnipotent, and cannot make it's will known to men.
• God is omnipotent, but incompetent.
• God is not intercessionary, and makes no revelations to mankind.
• All god concepts are equally valid, including the non-existence of god.
• There is no God.

See the validity of Jesus' and His Apostles writings as to prophecy exactly what you have said. The conflicting and contradictory happenings we witness and what started way back then was part of the plan of God. And part of His plan was that only a select few in this age would actually "get it". I will just paraphrase some verses

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword"---Jesus
"enemies will be of your own househole"---Jesus
"it is given unto YOU not THEM to know the mysteries of the Kingdom"----Jesus
""For many are called, but few {are} chosen." ---Jesus
"they will wax worse and worse"---Paul speaking of those ["christians"] who pervert the truth
"bring in damnable doctrines of devils"---Peter speaking of those ["christians"] who will pervert the truth


Etc etc etc. This is how it is supposed to be in this age. It was prophecied and brought to pass. So when looking at these facts there are only a few logical choices remaining:

• God is omnipotent, and can make it's will known to men by fulfilling His prophecies
• God is not incompetent, but omnipotent because no will of man thwarted His prophecies
• God is makes revelations to a few of mankind for those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear"
• All god concepts are not equally valid, especially the non-existence of god.
• There is a God.

Thus proving my point that each believer sees their version of God as the true version. Even if it means seeing fulfilled prophesies in the very nature of the conflicting god concepts.

 

[tumbleweed41]

You have all the witnesses from the apostles to secualr writings even the jewish talmud of Jesus physically existing. Why is this not proof enough? Is it not the same as julius ceasars friends and family.

Julius also claimed divinity, is his claim equally valid?

Jesus created a "new"religion [new covenant] which you can say as a government that will be in the future --on His timing. Jesus "created a religion" thats lasted over 2000 years and somehow this still isnt valid?

No more valid than Islam.

More than the bible speaks of His miracles and rising from the dead.

Can you reference these first century historical documents?

We still have the same God that we started out with, He just added a Son, a virgin mother, three wisemen and a group of 12 disciples. Call it new if you wish, but it's a story that is as old as time......

There are many differences between the god of the Hebrews and the god of the Christians. Just as there are many differences between these two god concepts and Muhammad's god.

(BTW, no mention is made of the number of Magi, only of the three gifts they brought.)

 

[AK4]

What did the apostles write? It is not at all clear that Jesus appears in the Talmud, there is a story about a guy named Yeshua (common name) that is similar to Jesus in some ways, different in more. So basically no, you don't have those things.

There is several places about Him burning forever in His feces and something else for claiming to be the Son of God---thus making it easy to identify who they were talking about. Cant remeber all the other places right off the top of my head right now

That's what we're trying to figure out. We know there's a religion; we're not so sure there's a Jesus.

I beleive its in 1 John that says something about people denying Him coming in the flesh. Paul states "the Man Jesus Christ" and again we have the talmud and others also stating this.

Now someone else said something of friends and family and others writing of julius ceasar and we have people all over writing of Him yet why is Jesus discredited of being real

Really? Please cite your sources.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

 

[AK4]

You do realize that people who are "speaking" in tongues are literally speaking gibberish? They aren't speaking any identifiable language, it's literally nothing.

Yes, thats why in the greek where it speaks of this in the Scriptures it says that it had ceased and it is not happening any more now. Back in those days it was the apostles and disciples speaking in their native tongues