Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: Kingdom of Qaim and Jesus

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you believe what Imam Sadiq said according to the following Hadith, conceptually is the same as the story of what Jesus said regarding His own kingdom?


Imam Sadiq peace be upon him said: ' O Mufaddal, Acclamation. Now tell me in what type of our Raj'ah do you believe? While some of our miserly Shia consider that our Raj'ah means that Allah will devolve Worldly Kingdom upon us and give it to Imam Mahdi. But woe unto them, when the ( divine ) kingdom was taken away from us so that it would be devolved to us?! '
Mufaddal then said:' No by Allah. It was not be taken away from you and you do not take it away( from yourself )[ because it is only from Allah ]. Because it(i.e., divine kingdom) is indeed the kingdom of prophecy and apostleship and Wasiyyah and Imamat.





Now, in the stories in the Bible, it is narrated, when the Jews questioned Jesus, if He is the King of the Jews, Jesus replied:

"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36



1- According to the statement of Jesus, if His kingdom was Worldly, 'His servant would fight'!
Now, when Qaim's kingdom is not Worldly according to Imam Sadiq, how is it that some Shias believe, Qaim and His followers were prophesied to fight in wars physically, or conquer the World and Rule as a Worldly Ruler?

2- In both Prophecies regarding Messiah and Qaim, it was prophecied they would come with a Sword and defeat their enemies. But, Jesus did not appear with a physical sword. According to Bible, Rather, His Words were likened to a Sword that separated Falsehood from Truth. Do you believe that the Sword of Qaim would be physical?

Thank you!

 

[Shiranui117]

***MOD POST***

Thread moved to Same Faith Debates.​

 

[mojtaba]

1. This tradition is weak.

2.Translation is not correct.

Correct text and translation of the tradition( Reference: Bihar al-Anwar, volume 53, page 25 and 26 ):

قال الصادق علیه السلام : أحسنت يامفضل فمن اين قلت برجعتنا؟ ومقصرة شيعتنا تقول : معنى الرجعة أن يرد الله إلينا ملك الدنيا وأن يجعله للمهدي. ويحهم متى سلبنا الملك حتى يرد علينا؟ قال المفضل : لا والله وما سلبتموه ولا تسلبونه لانه ملك النبوة والرسالة والوصيةوالامامة​

Imam Sadiq peace be upon him said: ' O Mufaddal, Acclamation! Now tell me in what type of our Raj'ah do you believe? While some of our miserly followers think that our Raj'ah means that ( at the time of our Return to this world in the future ), Allah will devolve the kingdom on the earth( i.e., the right of the authority ) upon us and give it to Mahdi. But woe unto them, when the kingdom( the right of the authority ) was taken away from us to be devolved to us?! '

Mufaddal then said:' No by Allah. It was not be taken away from you and you do not take it away( from yourself )[ because the right of the authority is only from Allah ].
Because it( i.e., the kingdom ) is indeed the kingdom of Prophecy and Apostleship and Wasiiah and leadership( Imamat )[ which only Allah gives them to whomever He wills, and because you are Imam and Wasii, so that He has given it to you ] '.

There is not the term 'divine' before the kingdom in original Arabic text.

So, regardless of the weakness of the authenticity of the tradition, on contrary what you are trying to prove, the tradition says that the right of the authority on the earth is only for the Imam, when there is an inffalible Imam on the earth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mojtaba is saying the Translation is incorrect.

ملك الدنيا


Al-Aldunya is 'Worldly' in this hadith. Refer to many Hadithes that, the Imams said, the False Scholars are those who get involved in 'Worldy' matters.

What Arabic word did they use for 'Worldy' in those Hadithes?



Then Mojtaba says that the term (divine) is not in the Hadith.
But dear mojtaba, you have inserted this word in the first translation that you made, in the thread called 'in what kind of Rajat (return) do you believe'


Then Mojtaba says, the Hadith is weak.


My reply:

I have shown in another Thread called 'Validity of Hadithes', that this method of Classification of Hadithes as weak or strong, are completly a man-made system, and is an unreliable method for determining which Hadithes are True, and False. This method of classification never Guarantees as a way to determine if a Hadith is false or true.


It would be Ultimately left for Qaim to determine the Validity of Hadithes.

What I am concluding is that the Mainstream Shia, reject any Hadith that is not in their Favour.

Did not the Infallible Imams advise, the Shia must obey the Qaim? Did they say, the Qaim would appear in the way Shia Clergy likes it? Or that Qaim is supposed to say exactly the things Shia Clergy likes?! If Shia Clergy was able to distinguish false from true, what was the need for a Qaim?
Moreover, according to many Hadithes, the True Shia gradually vanishes, the true scholars vanish, and Evil scholars remain who fight with the Qaim using Quran.
Now, let's be fair; it has passed more than a 1000 years from Islam. You think this vanishment of true shia occurs overnight? Did not the Imams say gradually. Generation and generation Shia is tested and remains less and less true Shia?

 

[mojtaba]

Mojtaba is saying the Translation is incorrect.

ملك الدنيا


Al-Aldunya is 'Worldly' in this hadith. Refer to many Hadithes that, the Imams said, the False Scholars are those who get involved in 'Worldy' matters.

What Arabic word did they use for 'Worldy' in those Hadithes?



Then Mojtaba says that the term (divine) is not in the Hadith.
But dear mojtaba, you have inserted this word in the first translation that you made, in the thread called 'in what kind of Rajat (return) do you believe'


Then Mojtaba says, the Hadith is weak.


My reply:

I have shown in another Thread called 'Validity of Hadithes', that this method of Classification of Hadithes as weak or strong, are completly a man-made system, and is an unreliable method for determining which Hadithes are True, and False. This method of classification never Guarantees as a way to determine if a Hadith is false or true.


It would be Ultimately left for Qaim to determine the Validity of Hadithes.

In any way, the tradition has not the term 'divine'. So, it does not prove your oponion.

What I am concluding is that the Mainstream Shia, reject any Hadith that is not in their Favour.

Did not the Infallible Imams advise, the Shia must obey the Qaim? Did they say, the Qaim would appear in the way Shia Clergy likes it? Or that Qaim is supposed to say exactly the things Shia Clergy likes?! If Shia Clergy was able to distinguish false from true, what was the need for a Qaim?

And I am concluding that you are obligated to reject the authentic traditions which infallible Imams have said about Qaim so that the liars like Bab could not claim they are Qaim.

Also Qaim himself has said that the narrators of the traditions are his Proof to us at his major occultation.

Moreover, according to many Hadithes, the True Shia gradually vanishes, the true scholars vanish, and Evil scholars remain who fight with the Qaim using Quran.
Now, let's be fair; it has passed more than a 1000 years from Islam. You think this vanishment of true shia occurs overnight? Did not the Imams say gradually. Generation and generation Shia is tested and remains less and less true Shia?

In those traditions, it is also said that at the time of the major occultation of Qaim, muslims would be tested. So, groups would go astry, because they believe that Qaim has died, or Qaim is not born.

These traditions exactly are about Bahais. Because they believe Qaim was not born or has died and he would spritually reappear.

Good luck.