Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: Is Qaim a Messenger of God With New Book?

[InvestigateTruth]

1. There are a number of Hadithes that says, Qaim is a Receiver of the angel Jibraeel.
And the infallible Imams have said that only Messengers can both see and hear the angel jibraeel:

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: “From the same pillar will descend a bird upon Imam Qaim (a.s.) and he will be the first to pledge allegiance to him. I swear by Allah that the bird, in fact, is His Eminence, Jibraeel (a.s.). Imam Qaim (a.s.) will be leaning on the wall. And he is the proof for the Qaim. Anyone who goes before him will testify for Imam Qaim (a.s.) in his presence.”

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said, "A prophet is one who sees things in his dream and hears the voice but does not see the angel. The messenger is one who hears the voice, in his dreams and sees the angel." I then said, "What is the position of the Imam?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He hears the voice but does not see and observe the angel"

Question: From the Two above, can we conclude Qaim is a Messenger of God?


2. Infallible Imams had said when Qaim comes, He will say the verse "God made me one of His Messengers":

Imam Baqir and Imam Sadiq (a.s.) had said:
“When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say:

ﻓﹶﻔﹶﺮَﺭْ ﺕُ ﻣِﻨﻜﹸﻢْ ﻟﹶﻤﱠﺎ ﺧِﻔﹾﺘُﻜﹸﻢْ ﻓﹶﻮَﻫَﺐَ ﻟِﻲ ﺭَﺑﱢﻲ ﺣُﻜﹾﻤًﺎ ﻭَﺟَﻌَﻠﹶﻨﹺﻲ ﻣِﻦَ ﺍﻟﹾﻤُﺮْﺳَﻠِﲔَ

“So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Surah Shoara 26:21)

Question: This verse clearly says Qaim will say He is a Messenger. How did your infallible Imams interpret it?


3. Imam sadiq said: "By Allah, as if I see him between the Rukn and Maqam being paid allegiance on a new covenant. He will be severe with the Arabs."

Imam Baqir said:"...He appears with a new method, new principles and new judgments...."

According to these hadithes, Qaim comes with a new Book:

" ... وقال.. الباقر(عليه السلام)... والله لكأنى أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس على كتاب جديد.... "

" ... أبي جعفر(عليه السلام) قال: " يقوم القائم(عليه السلام)....، فوالله لكأني أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس بأمر جديد، وكتاب جديد، وسلطان جديد...."

Source: http://www.alqaem.net/book05/12.htm

Question: How do you interpret New Book, and New Cause (Amr)?


4. In another Hadith from Imam Sadiq which I posted in another thread, it is said that the Qaim will say, "I am that same Messengers and Imams of the past ages"

Question: Can the Qaim be an Imam and Messenger at the same time like Prophet Abraham?


5. According to Hadithes, Prophet Muhammad said, there is no prophet after Him. Could have He meant that after Him until the time of appearance of the Qaim, there is no Prophet after Him?






Thanks!

 

[mojtaba]

1. There are a number of Hadithes that says, Qaim is a Receiver of the angel Jibraeel.
And the infallible Imams have said that only Messengers can both see and hear the angel jibraeel:

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: “From the same pillar will descend a bird upon Imam Qaim (a.s.) and he will be the first to pledge allegiance to him. I swear by Allah that the bird, in fact, is His Eminence, Jibraeel (a.s.). Imam Qaim (a.s.) will be leaning on the wall. And he is the proof for the Qaim. Anyone who goes before him will testify for Imam Qaim (a.s.) in his presence.”

Imam Sadiq (a.s) said, "A prophet is one who sees things in his dream and hears the voice but does not see the angel. The messenger is one who hears the voice, in his dreams and sees the angel." I then said, "What is the position of the Imam?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He hears the voice but does not see and observe the angel"

Question: From the Two above, can we conclude Qaim is a Messenger of God?

Salam dear @InvestigateTruth;

About this Hadith:
Imam Sadiq (a.s) said, "A prophet is one who sees things in his dream and hears the voice but does not see the angel. The messenger is one who hears the voice, in his dreams and sees the angel." I then said, "What is the position of the Imam?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He hears the voice but does not see and observe the angel"

Imam Sadiq says that all Imams are Muhaddath(the one spoken to). Consider that Imam Mahdi is only Imam, not Messenger(note: that Hadith which you have mentioned says Mahdi is a Messenger, is indeed an evil mixture of two distinct Hadiths). See also ff Hadith:
Burayd have narrated:
I Asked Imam Baghir (a.s.) about the messenger, the Prophet and al-Muhaddath(persons to whom angles speak)." The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom Jibril (angel) comes openly he sees him (the angel) and speaks to him. Such person is a messenger. A prophet is one who sees in his dream something like the dream of Abraham (a.s.) or the dream of our Prophet (s.a.) about reasons for Prophethood before the coming of revelation until Jibril came from Allah with to inform him that he was to be a messenger. In the case of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) when Prophethood was established in him then Jibril brought him the message that he was to be a messenger. Jibril would come and speak to him openly. Some of the prophets in whom Prophethood is established they see in their dreams, the spirit comes to them, speaks and reports to them but they do not see the spirit when awake. Al-Muhaddath is one to who is reported to and he hears the reporting but does not see openly or in his dream."
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 176)

Al-Qa'im, Imam Mahdi is also a Muhaddath:
Imam Baghir (a.s.) says:
"The Messenger of Allah has said, "From my descendants there will be twelve noble supervisors, who are Muhaddaths persons to whom angles speak and very intelligent. The last of them(Imams who are Muhaddath) will be Al-Qa'im (the one who will rise with Divine Authority) and with truth who will fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 534)

But according to Holy Qur'an(e.g., 19:17-19 and 11:69-73) and Hadiths, it is possible that a Muhaddath sees the angles. For example, Imam Sadiq says:"Angeles Shake hands with us."(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 393)

So, The traditions say that the muhaddath(the one spoken to) hears the voice of the angel and does not see him. It looks at the reality of being spoken to, and gives its academic definition. But it does not mean that the muhaddath never sees the angel. A man becomes al-muhaddath (the one spoken to), as soon as he hears an angel's voice, it is not necessary for him to see the angel. And if the muhaddath sees the angel, it is not because he is spoken to; it is an added excellence.

2. Infallible Imams had said when Qaim comes, He will say the verse "God made me one of His Messengers":

Imam Baqir and Imam Sadiq (a.s.) had said:
“When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say:

ﻓﹶﻔﹶﺮَﺭْ ﺕُ ﻣِﻨﻜﹸﻢْ ﻟﹶﻤﱠﺎ ﺧِﻔﹾﺘُﻜﹸﻢْ ﻓﹶﻮَﻫَﺐَ ﻟِﻲ ﺭَﺑﱢﻲ ﺣُﻜﹾﻤًﺎ ﻭَﺟَﻌَﻠﹶﻨﹺﻲ ﻣِﻦَ ﺍﻟﹾﻤُﺮْﺳَﻠِﲔَ

“So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Surah Shoara 26:21)

Question: This verse clearly says Qaim will say He is a Messenger. How did your infallible Imams interpret it?

Friend, I think you are using from an article that its writer is an evil Baha'i one.

Correct text and translation of that Hadith:

«نى : محمد بن همام ، عن جعفر بن محمد ، عن الحسن بن [ محمد بن ] سماعة ، عن الحارث الانماطي ، عن المفضل ، عن أبي عبدالله (علیه السلام) أنه قال : إذا قام القائم تلا هذه الآية « ففررت منكم لما خفتكم​

Muhammad ibn Humam have narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad, from ... from Imam Sadiq(peace be upon him) that:
Imam Said has said: "When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say: 'So I fled from you when I feared you.'."
(Reference: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52 , pg. 292)

But there is another Hadith:

ابن عقدة ، عن القاسم بن محمد ، عن عبيس بن هشام ، عن ابن جبلة ، عن أحمد ابن نضر ، عن المفضل ، عن أبي عبدالله (علیه السلام) أنه قال : إن لصاحب هذا الامر غيبة يقول فيها : ففررت منكم لما خفتكم ] فوهب لي ربي حكما وجعلني من المرسلين​

Ibn 'Ughdah, from .... from Imam Sadiq that:
Imam Sadiq has said: " Indeed the man of this Mater has an Absence in which he says: 'So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles.'."
(Reference: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52 , pg. 292)

So when Imam Mahdi al-Qai'm rises up, never says: "then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles". Instead, when he went to Occultation( and not when he rises up), he recited for himself a verse of Holy Quran that he meant only the first part of the verse(i.e., So I fled from you when I feared you), and not the other part(i.e., then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles). The first Hadith which I mentioned and do not have the second part, proves this.(That Hadith: Imam Said has said: "When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say: 'So I fled from you when I feared you.'." )

 

[mojtaba]

3. Imam sadiq said: "By Allah, as if I see him between the Rukn and Maqam being paid allegiance on a new covenant. He will be severe with the Arabs."

Imam Baqir said:"...He appears with a new method, new principles and new judgments...."

According to these hadithes, Qaim comes with a new Book:

" ... وقال.. الباقر(عليه السلام)... والله لكأنى أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس على كتاب جديد.... "

" ... أبي جعفر(عليه السلام) قال: " يقوم القائم(عليه السلام)....، فوالله لكأني أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس بأمر جديد، وكتاب جديد، وسلطان جديد...."

Source: http://www.alqaem.net/book05/12.htm

Question: How do you interpret New Book, and New Cause (Amr)?

These Hadiths are Mutishabih(which needs interpretation with definite Hadiths). There are Hadiths in which Imams says that like Qur'an, in their Hadiths there are Muhkam(definite) and Mutishabih(which needs interpretation with definite Hadiths) Hadiths.

So please read these Muhkam(definite) Hadiths:
1.Isnad of this Hadith is Sahih:

سُئِلَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عليه السلام عَنْ مَعْنَى قَوْلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وآله إِنِّي مُخَلِّفٌ فِيكُمُ‏ الثَّقَلَيْنِ‏ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ وَعِتْرَتِي مَنِ الْعِتْرَةُ؟ فَقَالَ:أَنَا وَالْحَسَنُ وَالْحُسَيْنُ وَالْأَئِمَّةُ التِّسْعَةُ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحُسَيْنِ تَاسِعُهُمْ مَهْدِيُّهُمْ وَقَائِمُهُمْ لَا يُفَارِقُونَ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ وَلَا يُفَارِقُهُمْ​

Imam Ali was questioned about the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad: " I am leaving for you two precious things. They are the Book of Allah(i.e., Holy Qur'an) and my Progeny(Itrah), that is my Ahlul Bayt. " that who are the Itrah?
Imam Ali replied: " (They are) me, and al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and other 9 Imams from the descendants of al-Husayn. The eighth of them(i.e., the descendants of al-Husayn), is their Mahdi and Qa'im. They(i.e., Itrah) never separate from the Book of Allah(Holy Qur'an) and vice versa."
(ُSource: 'Oyoon Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Saduq, vol. 2, pg. 60 )

2. Isnad is Sahih:
Imam Ali has said:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وتَعَالَى طَهَّرَنَا وعَصَمَنَا وجَعَلَنَا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ وحُجَجاً فِي أَرْضِهِ وجَعَلَنَا مَعَ الْقُرْآنِ وجَعَلَ الْقُرْآنَ مَعَنَا لَا نُفَارِقُهُ ولَا يُفَارِقُنَا.​

Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, cleansed us(i.e.,12 infallible Imams), granted us protection against sins, made us to bear witness to the activities of His creatures and granted us Divine authority on earth. He made us to be with the holy Quran and the Holy Quran to be with us. We do not depart the Holy Quran and the Holy Quran does not depart us.
(References: 1.Osul al-Kafi, Ch. 9, H. 3 / 2.Kamaluddin Wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh Saduq, pg. 240)

3.Imam Baghir:

إِنَّ الْعِلْمَ بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ ص ليَنْبُتُ فِي قَلْبِ مَهْدِيِّنَا كَمَا يَنْبُتُ الزَّرْعُ عَنْ أَحْسَنِ نَبَاتِه​

Indeed, the knowledge of the Book of Allah(Holy Qur'an) and Sunnah of the Allah's Prophet, will certainly grow in the heart of our Mahdi, like(the growing of) the plants that grow in the best manner.
(Source:Kamaluddin Wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh Saduq, pg. 653)

So I interpret those Mutishabih Hadiths that you have mentioned, with Muhkam(definite) Hadiths:
Those means reviving of Qur’an and Sunnah(i.e., Prophet’s acts ) which people have turned towards desires

1. it is in Dua Ahd, which is from Imam Sadiq that(In Bihar al-Anwar, Allamah Majlisi says about this Dua that it has been narrated through the Sahih chines of narrators from Imam Sadiq):
So, O Allah, (please) show us Your vicegerent, the son of Your Prophet, and the namesake of Your Messenger, peace be upon him and his Household, so that he shall tear up any wrong item that he will face and shall confirm and approve of the truth. O Allah, (please) make him the shelter to whom Your wronged servants shall resort, the supporter of those who cannot find any supporter save You, the reviver of the laws of Your Book that have been suspended, and the constructor of all signs of Your religion and instructions of Your Messenger, peace be upon him and his Household, that he will see.
(Source: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 99, pg. 112)

Imam Ali: “Upon Imam Mahdi’s reappearance, he will direct desires towards (the path of) guidance at a time when people have turned guidance towards desires, and he will draw their attention to the direction of the Qur’an while the people try to interpret the Qur'an according to their own views. He also punishes all those agents who did evil for their wrongdoing. He will show you the just way of behavior and revive the Qur’an and Sunnah(i.e., Prophet’s acts ) which are neglected by the people.”‌
(Source: Nahjul Balaghah, Sermon 138)

َAlso there are another Dua that clearly interpret those Hadiths:
Through a valid chain of authority, it has been narrated that Shaykh Abu-`Amr, the first Emissary (safir) of Imam al-Mahdi (ajtfs)dictated the following prayer to Abu-Muhammad ibn Hammam and ordered him to say it [frequently]

(pg. 515) وَ جَدِّدْ بِهِ مَا امْتَحَى مِنْ دِينِكَ وَ أَصْلِحْ بِهِ مَا بُدِّلَ‌مِنْ حُكْمِكَ وَ غُيِّرَ مِنْ سُنَّتِكَ حَتَّى يَعُودَ دِينُكَ بِهِ وَ عَلَى يَدَيْهِ غَضّاً جَدِيداً صَحِيحاً لَا عِوَجَ فِيهِ وَ لَا بِدْعَةَ مَعَهُ(514)....... اَللَّهُمَّ فَاحْيِ بِوَلِيِّكَ الْقُرْآنَ​

(O, Allah!) Revive the signs of Your religion that were obliterated, and rectify Your laws that were altered and Your instructions that were changed,so that Your religion will be restored through him(i.e., al-Qa'im) and at his hands, fresh, new, and sound without any crookedness and without any heresy......... Therefore, O Allah, revive the Qur'an through Your representative(i.e., Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im) ...
(Source:Kamaluddin Wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh Saduq, pg. 514 and 515)

 

[mojtaba]

4. In another Hadith from Imam Sadiq which I posted in another thread, it is said that the Qaim will say, "I am that same Messengers and Imams of the past ages"
Question: Can the Qaim be an Imam and Messenger at the same time like Prophet Abraham?

No. As I mentioned, Imam Mahdi is Muhaddath, not Messenger.
For your information, we believe that Prophet Muhammad was an Imam and also Messenger, like prophet Abraham

5. According to Hadithes, Prophet Muhammad said, there is no prophet after Him. Could have He meant that after Him until the time of appearance of the Qaim, there is no Prophet after Him?

1.Burayd has narrated:
I asked Imam Baghir (a.s.) that what is the meaning of The Messenger, Prophet and Muhaddith?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom the angel comes openly and speaks to him. A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Sometimes prophethood and messengership may exist in one person. Al-Muhaddith is one who hears the voice but does not see the person (of the angel)." I then asked, may Allah keep you well, "How would one know that what one sees in his dream is true and that it is from the angel?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He receives help for success to know the angel. Allah has ended (the sending of the ) heavenly books through your Book(Qur'an) and the Prophets through your Prophet"
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 423, Ch. 3, h 3)

Consider that, if a person is Messenger, he is firstly a Prophet(النبی) and then a Messenger(الرسول):

والرسول يكون نبيا مع الرسالة​

Imam Sadiq: The Messenger is a Prophet with (the added rank of) Messengership.
(Source: Basa 'iru 'd-darajat, pg. 391)

So there will never be another Prophet or Messenger after Muhammad(sawaws).

2.Imam Sadiq:
'Whatever Prophet (sawaws) has made lawful will remain lawful forever up to the Day of Judgment and whatever he has made unlawful will remain unlawful forever up to the Day of Judgment. There will be no one other than him and there will come no one other than him.' "
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 147)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No. As I mentioned, Imam Mahdi is Muhaddath, not Messenger.
For your information, we believe that Prophet Muhammad was an Imam and also Messenger, like prophet Abraham


1.Burayd has narrated:
I asked Imam Baghir (a.s.) that what is the meaning of The Messenger, Prophet and Muhaddith?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom the angel comes openly and speaks to him. A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Sometimes prophethood and messengership may exist in one person. Al-Muhaddith is one who hears the voice but does not see the person (of the angel)." I then asked, may Allah keep you well, "How would one know that what one sees in his dream is true and that it is from the angel?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He receives help for success to know the angel. Allah has ended (the sending of the ) heavenly books through your Book(Qur'an) and the Prophets through your Prophet"
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 423, Ch. 3, h 3)

Dear Mojtaba,

Consider what Imam Ali (a.s) said with regards to Prophet Muhammad:


"My God, the Spreader of the surfaces (of earth) and Keeper (intact) of all skies, Creator of hearts on good and evil nature, send Thy choicest blessings and growing favours on Muhammad Thy servant and Thy Prophet who is the last of those who preceded (him) and an opener for what is closed." Imam Ali

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/export/html/20582

Questions:

1. How did the infallible Imams explained the meaning of 'Opener'? Prophet Muhammad is opener of what is closed. What was closed?
In one sense all Messengers close and end the previous dispensations, and open a new one. All of Them end previous dispensation and begin a new one. Like Jesus, like Muhammad who are the First and the Last. Yes?

2. There is also another authentic Hadith from Prophet Muhammad:


"My similitude in comparison with the prophets before me is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the seal of the prophets"

In this similitude, God sent a number of Prophets, which is like creating a House. Prophet Muhammad is the Last Prophet and Messenger of this House.

Question: Can God continue to create other Houses, or even a city around this first House? Did the creation of God end, or He continues to create by sending more Messengers for a Later New Creation?

"Did We fail in the first creation? But they are in confusion over a new creation" Quran 50:15

Is not this New Creation, the creation of the Day of Resurrection, which through Qaim, the earth is changed to another earth after its Death?

2.Imam Sadiq:
'Whatever Prophet (sawaws) has made lawful will remain lawful forever up to the Day of Judgment and whatever he has made unlawful will remain unlawful forever up to the Day of Judgment. There will be no one other than him and there will come no one other than him.' "
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 147)

Dear Mojtaba,

Do you believe that the Imams sometimes Tested the True believers, by their words? So much so that, if one does not believe that the Day of Judgment ever comes, he can be mislead by the words of God and Imams, and take His saying to mean that Day of Judgement never comes, Yes?

Muhammad bin Isa from Uthman bin Isa Kilabi from Khalid bin Najih from Zurarah bin Ayyan that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say:

“There is an occultation for the Qaim before his reappearance.” I asked: “Why is it so?” He replied: “He is fearful.” And he pointed towards his belly, implying that the Qaim fears for his life. Then he said: “O Zurarah; and he is that awaited one and he is the one in whose birth they shall doubt. Thus some will say: His father died heirless and some will say: He was in the womb of his mother when his father died. Some others will allege that he was born two years before the passing away of his father. And he is the Awaited one; but the Almighty Allah likes to test the Shia. It is the time when people of falsehood will fall in doubts.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam dear
So when Imam Mahdi al-Qai'm rises up, never says: "then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles". Instead, [U]when he went to Occultation( and not when he rises up)[/U], he recited[U] for himself[/U] a verse of Holy Quran that he meant only the first part of the verse(i.e., So I fled from you when I feared you), and not the other part(i.e., then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles). The first Hadith which I mentioned and do not have the second part, proves this.(That Hadith: Imam Said has said: "When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say: '[B]So I fled from you when I feared you.'."[/B] )

Dear Mojtaba,

Do you mean, before Qaim went to occultation, He was a Messenger (Mursaleen), but at the time of rising, He is not a Messenger anymore? How could that be?
How can a person who was a messenger before, His station of Messengership be taken from Him? Moreover, even if at the time before His Occultation, He was a Messenger, it would mean, a Messener gafter Muhammad. Yes?
What is the point that Qaim say a verse for Himself, that God made Him an apostle, if He is not an apostle?

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,

Do you mean, before Qaim went to occultation, He was a Messenger (Mursaleen), but at the time of rising, He is not a Messenger anymore? How could that be?
How can a person who was a messenger before, His station of Messengership be taken from Him? Moreover, even if at the time before His Occultation, He was a Messenger, it would mean, a Messener gafter Muhammad. Yes?

I meant that according to Hadiths, the Qa'im like other 11 Imams is only a Muhaddath(person to whom angles speak), not a Messenger or Prophet. So when Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im went to Occultation, he recited for himself a verse that he meant only the first part of the verse(i.e., So I fled from you when I feared you), not the second part, and the other Hadith that have not the second part of the verse and says that when Qa'im rises up, he will only say to people, 'So I fled from you when I feared you ' proves that the Qa'im, whether before the Occultation or after the reappearance, is not a Messenger.
As I mentioned perviously, according to Hadiths, Qa'im(Mahdi) is only a Muhaddath(مُحَدَّث i.e., person to whom angles speak). Read post #2 again with more accuracy.
As I mentioned, the ff Hadith and other such Hadiths say that a Muhaddath is not Messenger or Prophet,
Ahwal has narrated, (See the full chain of the narrators in the source)
I Asked Imam Baghir(a.s.) about the Messenger, the Prophet and Muhaddath(persons to whom angles speak).......(see the full translation of Hadith in post #2)
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 176, Hadith 3/۳)

And the ff Hadith says that Qa'im is only a Muhaddath, nothing else,
Imam Baghir (a.s.) says, (See the full chain of the narrators in the source)
"The Messenger of Allah has said, "From my descendants there will be twelve noble supervisors, who are Muhaddaths( so, they are not Messenger or Prophet) and very intelligent. The last of them(Imams who are Muhaddath) will be Al-Qa'im and with truth who will fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 534)

What is the point that Qaim say a verse for Himself, that God made Him an apostle, if He is not an apostle?

What is the point that Qa'im will not say to people, that he is an apostle, when he rises up?
Why do other Hadiths say that Qa'im is only a Muhaddath, not a Messenger or Prophet?
If he is a Messenger, why will not say to people that he is a Messenger?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I meant that according to Hadiths, the Qa'im like other 11 Imams is only a Muhaddath(person to whom angles speak), not a Messenger or Prophet. So when Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im went to Occultation, he recited for himself a verse that he meant only the first part of the verse(i.e., So I fled from you when I feared you), not the second part, and the other Hadith that have not the second part of the verse and says that when Qa'im rises up, he will only say to people, 'So I fled from you when I feared you ' proves that the Qa'im, whether before the Occultation or after the reappearance, is not a Messenger.
As I mentioned perviously, according to Hadiths, Qa'im(Mahdi) is only a Muhaddath(مُحَدَّث i.e., person to whom angles speak). Read post #2 again with more accuracy.
As I mentioned, the ff Hadith and other such Hadiths say that a Muhaddath is not Messenger or Prophet,
Ahwal has narrated, (See the full chain of the narrators in the source)
I Asked Imam Baghir(a.s.) about the Messenger, the Prophet and Muhaddath(persons to whom angles speak).......(see the full translation of Hadith in post #2)
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 176, Hadith 3/۳)

And the ff Hadith says that Qa'im is only a Muhaddath, nothing else,
Imam Baghir (a.s.) says, (See the full chain of the narrators in the source)
"The Messenger of Allah has said, "From my descendants there will be twelve noble supervisors, who are Muhaddaths( so, they are not Messenger or Prophet) and very intelligent. The last of them(Imams who are Muhaddath) will be Al-Qa'im and with truth who will fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 534)


What is the point that Qa'im will not say to people, that he is an apostle, when he rises up?
Why do other Hadiths say that Qa'im is only a Muhaddath, not a Messenger or Prophet?
If he is a Messenger, why will not say to people that he is a Messenger?

1. According to this Hadith, the Qaim would say that verse when He rises:

عن حعفر بن مالك ، عن الحسن ابن محمد بن سماعة ، عن أحمد بن الحارث ، عن المفضل بن عمر ، عن أبي عبدالله عن أبيه أنه قال : إذا قام القائم. قال : « ففررت منكم لما خفتكم فوهب لي ربي حكما وجعلنيمنالمرسلين »
http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/52/281

“When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say:

“So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Surah Shoara 26:21)


Question: Is it possible that, the Imams were alluding this way, that Qaim would be a Messenger, however, in order to test the True Shia, they did not say it explicitly? After all, how could there be a Test, if everything was said so explicitly and clearly? What is the reason that Quran does not have any Explicit verse regarding Qaim, even though, there are many Figurative verses about Qaim, that only the infallible Imams interpreted for the Muslims?

2. If Imam Qaim would be an Apostle, does it mean, He cannot be also Muhaddath? Was not Prophet Muhammad also Muhaddath? Was not Abraham an Imam as well?

3. In Bihar-alanwar it is narrated from Abu Khalid Qummat from Humran bin Ayyan that:

“Once I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) if there is something in Bani Israel, which will not happen in this Ummah?

He replied: No.

Question: One of the things that happened to Bani Israel was that their Messiah was a Messenger of God, even though they did not and still to this day, do not believe that their Messiah would be a Messenger of God with a New Book. Was this also to happen to Muslims?

 

[mojtaba]

1. According to this Hadith, the Qaim would say that verse when He rises:

عن حعفر بن مالك ، عن الحسن ابن محمد بن سماعة ، عن أحمد بن الحارث ، عن المفضل بن عمر ، عن أبي عبدالله عن أبيه أنه قال : إذا قام القائم. قال : « ففررت منكم لما خفتكم فوهب لي ربي حكما وجعلني من المرسلين »
http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/52/281

“When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say:

“So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Surah Shoara 26:21)

Firstly please read ff Hadith,
Imam Ridha(peace be upon him), " Whoever refers Mutishabih[ i.e., ambiguous ] verses of Qur'an to Muhkam[ i.e., clear, definitive ] verses, certainly has been guided to the straight way. There are certainly between our Hadiths, Mutishabih[ i.e., ambiguous ] ones, like Mutishabih of Qur'an; and Muhkam [clear, definitive] ones, like Muhkam of Qur'an. So do not follow ambiguous Hadiths besides definitive ones, [if you follow only ambiguous Hadiths] so you would lead astray ".( source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 2, pg. 261 )

That Hadith which you have mentioned and say that when Qa'im rises up, would recite a verse of Qur'an[i.e., “So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Holy Qur'an, 26:21)], is ambiguous, because there are definitive Hadiths that say that, if a person after Apostle Muhammad(s.a.w.a.w.s.) said that he is Apostle or brought a new book besides Qur'an, we should kill him(Reference: Bihar, v11, p35). Also read ff Hadiths,

1.Imam Ridha has said to Ma'mun,[see the chin of the narrators here]

"فمن ادعى للانبياء ربوبية أو ادعى للائمة ربوبية أو نبوة أو لغير الائمة إمامة فنحن منه براء في الدنيا والآخرة"​

"whoever says that Prophets are Lord, or Imams are Lord or Prophet, we[i.e., infallible Imams] would repudiate him/her in this world and in the Hereafter."
(source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 1, pg. 217)

2.Sadir has narrated that he has said to Imam Sadiq, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you(plural, because its Arabic text is کم which is plural and refers to 12 infallible Imams who are after Apostle Muhammad) are Apostles/Messengers(رُسُل) and read to from the Holy Qur'an. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."
(source: Al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 269)

So we should explain that Mutishabih[ambiguous] Hadith which you have mentioned with Muhkam[definitive] ones. Two above Hadiths was definitive one and also here is other definitive Hadiths that explain clearly that ambiguous one. Such these Hadiths prove that, when Qa'im rises up and recites that verse of Qur'an, he does not want to say that he is an apostle/messenger. He only wants to say that, because he feared that peoples would kill him, who is indeed the last Wasii, so that he fled from people according to Allah's order and went to occultation. The Hadith that does not have the second part of the verse and other Hadiths, prove this,

نى : محمد بن همام ، عن جعفر بن محمد ، عن الحسن بن [ محمد بن ] سماعة ، عن الحارث الانماطي ، عن المفضل ، عن أبي عبدالله (علیه السلام) أنه قال : إذا قام القائم تلا هذه الآية: ففررت منكم لما خفتكم​

Muhammad ibn Humam have narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad, from ... from Imam Sadiq(peace be upon him) that:
1.Imam Sadiq has said: "When Qaim (a.s.) rises up, he would say: 'So I fled from you when I feared you' ".
(Reference: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52 , pg. 292, Hadith 39/۳۹)

As you know, that verse of Qur'an[So I fled from you when I feared you.....26:21], is indeed saying of Prophet Moses. So read ff Hadith,
Narrated to us Ali bin Ahmad bin Muhammad (r.a.): Narrated to us Muhammad bin Abi Abdullah Kufi: Narrated to us Musa bin Imran Nakhai from his uncle Husain bin Yazid Naufali from Hasan Ibne Ali bin Abi Hamza [from his father] from Abi Baseer that he said:
2.I heard Aba Ja’far[Imam Baghir] (a.s.) says:
“In the master of this affair[i.e., Qa'im peace be upon him] there is a similarity to Musa, to Isa, to Yusuf and Muhammad (s.a.w.a.w.s.),
As for the similarity to Musa: It is being fearful and vigilant. And as for Isa,....
(Kamaluddin by Sheykh Sadugh, v1, p329)

Muhammad bin Isa from Uthman bin Isa Kilabi from Khalid bin Najih from Zurarah bin Ayyan that he said:
3.I heard Imam Sadiq (a.s.) say:, “There is an occultation for the Qaim before his reappearance.” I asked: “Why is it so?” He replied: “He is fearful.” And he pointed towards his belly, implying that the Qaim fears for his life.
(Al-Kafi by Koleyni, v1. p337)

Question: Is it possible that, the Imams were alluding this way, that Qa'im would be a Messenger, however, in order to test the True Shia, they did not say it explicitly? After all, how could there be a Test, if everything was said so explicitly and clearly? What is the reason that Qur'an does not have any Explicit verse regarding Qaim, even though, there are many Figurative verses about Qa'im, that only the infallible Imams interpreted for the Muslims?

According to Hadiths, the test of true Shia regarding Imam Mahdi, is not what you mentioned. It is keeping the faith to his Imamah, his Gheybah( occultation )and to believe that he is alive.
Imam Sadiq, “There is an occultation for the Qaim before his reappearance.” I asked: “Why is it so?” He replied: “He is fearful.” And he pointed towards his belly, implying that the Qaim fears for his life. Then he said: “O Zurarah; and he is that awaited one and he is the one in whose birth they shall doubt. Thus some will say: His father died heirless and some will say: He was in the womb of his mother when his father died. Some others will allege that he was born two years before the passing away of his father. And he is the Awaited one; but the Almighty Allah likes to test the Shia. It is the time when people of falsehood will fall in doubts.”
(Al-Kafi by Koleyni, v1. p337)

2. If Imam Qaim would be an Apostle, does it mean, He cannot be also Muhaddath? Was not Prophet Muhammad also Muhaddath? Was not Abraham an Imam as well?

There are a Hadith from Imam Sadiq which says that all Imams are Muhaddath, and then says that the sending of Prophets and Heavenly Books has ended through Prophet Muhammad.

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn Yahya have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ali ibn Hassan from Faddal from Ali ibn Ya'qub al-Hashimi from Marwan ibn Muslim from Burayd who has said the following.
I asked Imam Baghir (a.s.) that what is the meaning of The Messenger, Prophet and Muhaddath?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom the angel comes openly and speaks to him. A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Sometimes prophethood and messengership may exist in one person. Al-Muhaddath is one who hears the voice but does not see the person (of the angel)." I then asked, may Allah keep you well, "How would one know that what one sees in his dream is true and that it is from the angel?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He receives help for success to know the angel. Allah has ended (the sending of the ) heavenly books through your Book(Qur'an) and the Prophets through your Prophet"
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 423, Ch. 3, h 3)

According to a Hadith from Imam Sadiq, an Apostle/Messenger is indeed a Prophet with the added rank of Messengership(Reference: Basa 'iru 'd-darajat, pg. 391,
والرسول يكون نبيا مع الرسالة), so because the sending of Prophets has ended through Muhammad(sawaws), the sending of Apostles/Messengers has also ended.

“Once I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) if there is something in Bani Israel, which will not happen in this Ummah?
He replied: No.
Question: One of the things that happened to Bani Israel was that their Messiah was a Messenger of God, even though they did not and still to this day, do not believe that their Messiah would be a Messenger of God with a New Book. Was this also to happen to Muslims?

Imam Baghir: Allah has ended (the sending of the ) heavenly books through your Book(Qur'an) and the Prophets through your Prophet"
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 423, Ch. 3, h 3)

Imam Ridha(the 8th Imam) has said, (see the chain of the narrators in the source)
"وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله وأمينه وصفيه وصفوته من خلقه وسيد المرسلين وخاتم النبيين وأفضل العالمين لانبي بعده ولا تبديل لملته ولا تغيير لشريعته"
Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger and .... and (Muhammad is) the Master of the Messengers, the Seal of Prophets and the best of the creatures, there will not be any prophet after him, and there will not be an alteration in his(Muhammad) Religion(Islam) and there will not be an alteration in his Shari'ah(Islamic Laws).
(Source: 'Uyoon al-Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Saduq, vol. 1, pg. 129)

Indeed, being Savior is the similarity between Messiah and Qa'im, not Messengership. Also there are some Hadiths that say that some sinner Shia will reject Qa'im. So, that Hadith which you have mentioned is out of context and does not mean Qa'im is a Messenger.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Firstly please read ff Hadith,
Imam Ridha(peace be upon him), " Whoever refers Mutishabih[ i.e., ambiguous ] verses of Qur'an to Muhkam[ i.e., clear, definitive ] verses, certainly has been guided to the straight way. There are certainly between our Hadiths, Mutishabih[ i.e., ambiguous ] ones, like Mutishabih of Qur'an; and Muhkam [clear, definitive] ones, like Muhkam of Qur'an. So do not follow ambiguous Hadiths besides definitive ones, [if you follow only ambiguous Hadiths] so you would lead astray ".( source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 2, pg. 261 )

That Hadith which you have mentioned and say that when Qa'im rises up, would recite a verse of Qur'an[i.e., “So I fled from you when I feared you, then my Lord granted me wisdom and made me of the apostles (Al-Mursaleen)…” (Holy Qur'an, 26:21)], is ambiguous, because there are definitive Hadiths that say that, if a person after Apostle Muhammad(s.a.w.a.w.s.) said that he is Apostle....

1. According to instructions of infallible Imams or Quran, how would we know if a Hadith or verse is decisive or ambiguous?

2. If a person believes a verse or Hadith is ambiguous, what should be done with the verse or Hadith? Should we reject it? Should we interpret it? Who knows the interpretation of the ambiguous verses and Hadithes? Did not Quran say, only God and the Well-grounded in knowledge who is the Prophet and Imams?
So, who ultimately can claim infallibility with regards to interpretation of ambiguous verses and Hadithes?

or brought a new book besides Qur'an, we should kill him(Reference: Bihar, v11, p35).

وشريعة محمد لا تنسخ إلى يوم القيامة ، ولا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة ، فمنادعىبعدهنبوةأوأتىبعدالقرآنبكتابفدمهمباحلكلمنسمعذلكمنه. [٢]

So the Hadith says, The Law of Muhammad is not abrogated till Day of Judgement, and If someone claims to have a Book after Quran, His blood is Mubah.

Question: What if Qaim who rises at the 'Hour', which is Day of Judgement, reveals a new Book. His blood is still Mubaah?

The Imam said, everything that happened to Bani Israel, would also happen to Muslims.
Question: Does it mean that the Muslims also like Jews try to kill Qaim?

Also read ff Hadiths,

1.Imam Ridha has said to Ma'mun,[see the chin of the narrators here]

"فمن ادعى للانبياء ربوبية أو ادعى للائمة ربوبية أو نبوة أو لغير الائمة إمامة فنحن منه براء في الدنيا والآخرة"​

"whoever says that Prophets are Lord, or Imams are Lord or Prophet, we[i.e., infallible Imams] would repudiate him/her in this world and in the Hereafter."
(source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 1, pg. 217)

Question: If you must reject anyone who says that Imam can be a Prophet, why then Shia believes Abraham who was an Imam, was also a Prophet and vice versa?

2.Sadir has narrated that he has said to Imam Sadiq, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you(plural, because its Arabic text is کم which is plural and refers to 12 infallible Imams who are after Apostle Muhammad) are Apostles/Messengers(رُسُل) and read to from the Holy Qur'an. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."
(source: Al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 269)

Could this Hadith mean that, the Imams within Islamic dispensation are not Messengers, because Allah finished revealing the Book until Day of Judgement , but God makes the Qaim a Messenger at the time, He rises on the Judgement Day? Did not Imam say, believing in Judgment Day, is believing in rising of Qaim? I already asked some questions in another thread regarding the Day of Resurrection.



Thank you Mojtaba. Once I find some more time, I also have some more question regarding the rest of your post.

 

[mojtaba]

1. According to instructions of infallible Imams or Quran, how would we know if a Hadith or verse is decisive or ambiguous?

Every Hadith that opposes the basic beliefs of Muslims which are indeed in numerous other Muhkam(definitive) Hadiths, are ambiguous(Mutishabih) and needs to be interpreted by definitive ones.
I proved for you in my previous post that, that Hadith which you mentioned is ambiguous, because opposes other numerous definitive Hadiths which determine our basic beliefs.

2. If a person believes a verse or Hadith is ambiguous, what should be done with the verse or Hadith? Should we reject it? Should we interpret it?

According to that Hadith of Imam Ridha, we should interpret the ambiguous Hadiths by definitive Hadiths.

Who knows the interpretation of the ambiguous verses and Hadithes? Did not Quran say, only God and the Well-grounded in knowledge who is the Prophet and Imams?

Allah and also Prophet Muhammad and his 12 infallible successors know.
Allah knows, so there are Muhkam(definitive) verses in Qur'an that interpret the ambiguous ones. For example, there are a verse in Qur'an that says, [5:64] "No, His(Allah) hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes." Because this verse could mean that Allah has tow hands like humans, so this verse is ambiguous. The definitive verse that interpret that verse is, [42:11]" Nothing is like Him." So we interpret the hand to power.

Prophet and 12 infallible Imams know the interpretation of ambiguous verses and Hadiths, so there are other definitive Hadiths that interpret ambiguous ones. Example of this is what I said to you in my previous post.

So, who ultimately can claim infallibility with regards to interpretation of ambiguous verses and Hadithes?

Infallible ones, Prophet and his 12 successors have interpreted the ambiguous verses and Hadiths. Also the reason/intellect which according to Hadiths of Imams is the inner guide, can help us to interpret the ambiguous Hadiths and verses.

وشريعة محمد لا تنسخ إلى يوم القيامة ، ولا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة ، فمنادعىبعدهنبوةأوأتىبعدالقرآنبكتابفدمهمباحلكلمنسمعذلكمنه. [٢]

So the Hadith says, The Law of Muhammad is not abrogated till Day of Judgement, and If someone claims to have a Book after Quran, His blood is Mubah.

Question: What if Qaim who rises at the 'Hour', which is Day of Judgement, reveals a new Book. His blood is still Mubaah?

The interpretation of the Restriction Day(یوم القیامه) as the day of rising of Qa'im is not in Hadiths of Imams. According to Hadiths of infallibles, Restriction Day(یوم القیامه) and the day of rising of Qa'im are two different days that have some similarities.
I will prove in the tread regarding this topic(The Resurrection of 'Dead' and Day of Judgment) that the Restriction Day(یوم القیامه) and the day of rising of Qa'im are not a common day.

The Imam said, everything that happened to Bani Israel, would also happen to Muslims.
Question: Does it mean that the Muslims also like Jews try to kill Qaim?

Yes. Hadiths says that some Muslims(?) try to kill Qa'im(peace be upon him) and battle with him. But Qa'im destroys all of them and send them towards the Hell.

Question: If you must reject anyone who says that Imam can be a Prophet, why then Shia believes Abraham who was an Imam, was also a Prophet and vice versa?

The term "Imams(ائمة)" in that Hadith of Imam Ridha refers to 12 infallible Imams after prophet Muhammad, not all Imams like Abraham(peace be upon him). According to the Hadith of Imam Sadiq[6th Imam] in my previous post, there were some Muslims(?) that believed that Imams are Lords or Messengers. That saying of Imam Ridha[8th Imam] is with regard to these people who believed that 12 infallible Imams are Messengers.

Could this Hadith mean that, the Imams within Islamic dispensation are not Messengers, because Allah finished revealing the Book until Day of Judgement, but God makes the Qaim a Messenger at the time, He rises on the Judgement Day? Did not Imam say, believing in Judgment Day, is believing in rising of Qaim? I already asked some questions in another thread regarding the Day of Resurrection.

Thank you Mojtaba. Once I find some more time, I also have some more question regarding the rest of your post.

You asked, 'Did not Imam say, believing in Judgment Day, is believing in rising of Qaim?'

I will prove that the Restriction Day(یوم القیامه) is not the day of rising of Qa'im(peace be upon him), God willing.
See the related thread.The Resurrection of 'Dead' and Day of Judgment

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The Baha'i leader Baha'u'llah forged the following tradition (claiming it exists in Bihar) :

“In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)​

The last section about the Quran has been forged by the impostor Baha'u'llah to fool people into believing the Mahdi will come with a new book. In case the folks here haven't realized yet, the OPs intention is to somehow prove this lie.

Don't believe a single word of what the OP attributes to Shia Islam, because following the example of their leader they make up hadiths, don't provide a reference for them then claim the hadith are part of the Shia corpus.

 

[Shiranui117]

***MOD POST***

Thread moved to Same Faith Debates.​