Shallow Revenge vs True Revenge

[Treasure Hunter]

What does it mean to fulfill the desire for revenge?

(1) Revenge must be punitive and retributive. The infliction of harm in response has to match or exceed the original act of harm.

(2) Revenge must be transformative. If the original offender doesn’t change, then the act of revenge loses meaning.

(3) Following from (2), revenge must be accompanied by an enduring justice. This justice necessitates a lasting source of judgment.

(4) Following from (2), the offender must willingly subject himself to the revenge + judgment in order to transform, so it must be incentivizing.

(5) The person at whom the desire for revenge is aimed must be the actual offender and not a puppet.

(6) Revenge must take place within a just world.


(a) If revenge is carried out which does not meet these 6 criteria, then it becomes shallow and loses meaning.

(b) The impulse for mindless, shallow forms of revenge distracts from the fulfillment of true revenge.

(c) The desire for true revenge inherently knows where to aim for its fulfillment, once the impulse for shallow revenge is cleared away.

(d) The desire for revenge, even for a just revenge, is socially unacceptable.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'd probably go alternatively with avenge to set things right in face of injustice and wrongdoings.

Revenge comes across as being personal.

 

[Quintessence]

So... if one rejects the "just world" philosophy all revenge is shallow by definition?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I'd probably go alternatively with avenge to set things right in face of injustice and wrongdoings.

Revenge comes across as being personal.

Yeah, I’m talking about the personal, socially unacceptable desire for revenge.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So... if one rejects the "just world" philosophy all revenge is shallow by definition?

I would say there is correlation. If I’m living in a severely corrupt, unjust world after doing the act of revenge, then that act loses meaning.

For instance, someone harms me and I spend months to get revenge against them, but suddenly I realize a loved one has a terminal illness which will kill them in a matter of days, what’s the act of revenge worth to me now?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

(e) There is no higher form of meaning in an unjust world than to pursue the desire for revenge + justice, even if it is ultimately unfulfilled.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I can honestly say that I have never in my life felt a desire to exact revenge on another person. Even those who harmed me so much when I was very young -- my healing is directly connected to my trying to understand "why" (which is very hard) and to forgive (which is not hard at all).

I know that sounds bizarre, coming from an avowed atheist, but there it is.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I can honestly say that I have never in my life felt a desire to exact revenge on another person. Even those who harmed me so much when I was very young -- my healing is directly connected to my trying to understand "why" (which is very hard) and to forgive (which is not hard at all).

I know that sounds bizarre, coming from an avowed atheist, but there it is.

I’m sure you have. The desire arises automatically within pain + anger. You can suppress the desire but it’s there.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So far, there has only been one human being who has exacted true revenge in this world. He lived ~ 2,000 years ago.

 

[crossfire]

Disagree with criteria number 1. Exceeding the original harm done just screams a lack of skill and finesse. It also violates like for like maximum justice principle.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Disagree with criteria number 1. Exceeding the original harm done just screams a lack of skill and finesse. It also violates like for like maximum justice principle.

I’m not defining righteous justice; I’m defining revenge. The two eventually merge, but not at the beginning. I’m starting from the beginning.

 

[Koldo]

What does it mean to fulfill the desire for revenge?

(1) Revenge must be punitive and retributive. The infliction of harm in response has to match or exceed the original act of harm.

(2) Revenge must be transformative. If the original offender doesn’t change, then the act of revenge loses meaning.

(3) Following from (2), revenge must be accompanied by an enduring justice. This justice necessitates a lasting source of judgment.

(4) Following from (2), the offender must willingly subject himself to the revenge + judgment in order to transform, so it must be incentivizing.

(5) The person at whom the desire for revenge is aimed must be the actual offender and not a puppet.

(6) Revenge must take place within a just world.


(a) If revenge is carried out which does not meet these 6 criteria, then it becomes shallow and loses meaning.

(b) The impulse for mindless, shallow forms of revenge distracts from the fulfillment of true revenge.

(c) The desire for true revenge inherently knows where to aim for its fulfillment, once the impulse for shallow revenge is cleared away.

(d) The desire for revenge, even for a just revenge, is socially unacceptable.

I reject #2 and #3, therefore I reject your conclusion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’m sure you have. The desire arises automatically within pain + anger. You can suppress the desire but it’s there.

I've told you how I felt. When I've been hurt, I've often found myself wondering "why," but I have never found myself thinking "I'll get even." You are free not to believe me, but your inability to be inside my mind makes your skepticism of no value at all.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I reject #2 and #3, therefore I reject your conclusion.

I’m speaking to the fulfillment of the desire for revenge. Fulfillment across time.

 

[Koldo]

I’m speaking to the fulfillment of the desire for revenge. Fulfillment across time.

I reject that revenge has to be transformative to have meaning and that it must be accompanied by enduring justice.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I've told you how I felt. When I've been hurt, I've often found myself wondering "why," but I have never found myself thinking "I'll get even." You are free not to believe me, but your inability to be inside my mind makes your skepticism of no value at all.

Your conscious awareness of your thoughts is different than the presence of the desire within anger.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I reject that revenge has to be transformative to have meaning and that it must be accompanied by enduring justice.

I said loses meaning, not no meaning. But fair enough.

 

[Koldo]

I said loses meaning, not no meaning. But fair enough.

Ok then. I also reject that it loses meaning. I see absolutely no loss of meaning by not being transformative.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Your conscious awareness of your thoughts is different than the presence of the desire within anger.

Your presumption of being able to psychoanalyze me online needs to be curtailed. It is offensive.

You get to speak for yourself -- not for anyone else.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Ok then. I also reject that it loses meaning. I see absolutely no loss of meaning by not being transformative.

I harm you, you feel a desire for revenge against me, and that unmet desire causes a sort of pain. Later you get your revenge and the pain of that desire subsides and you feel a sense of fulfillment.

The next day I harm you in the same way, that desire for revenge returns, and that desire now judges the fulfillment you previously felt as no longer being fulfilled.