Sex Work Is Legitimate, But Needs Regulation

[Kooky]

That's another thing, why would any female support an industry that empowers men to degrade women?

My personal theory is that jobs earn money, and this money can then be exchanged for necessary goods and services.

That's just a theory, though. It could also be Satan, communists, or Obama.

 

[Kooky]

But there are millions harmed because of the sex trade even legally.

Then why punish the victims?

 

[Shakeel]

Of course I care. It is gross for husbands to cheat on their wives and vice versa where they have an agreement to be monogamous with their marriage. I don't support that.

Then you're being hypocritical. The purpose of the sex business is nothing but to ruin people and families. Nothing good comes out of living for one's sexual desires. They might as well live in the woods like animals.

But I also don't support treating everyone as if they're guilty because of the actions of those who are

So, if my job is to slaughter cows. The cows are hit on the head and then brought to me and I will cut them open from the belly and let the blood pour out. If they're alive I cause them unimaginable pain and suffering. Now, because they've been hit on the head so hard, they're hoped to be dead, but the tests show that 40% are still alive and awake when they get to me. I know this and I continue to kill them cruelly whether they're awake and aware or not.

Am I guilty of cruelty?

If the answer is no, then we'll just have to conclude that your idea of personal responsibility is lacking something, if the answer is yes, you're a hypocrite.

"Let me start off with the escort feedback. According to the escorts I spoke to, roughly 75% of their clients are married, often traveling on business. (...)

According to one respondent, “they’re almost all married, and I don’t think I have ever seen one try to hide it from me. They will take calls from their wives while I’m there, talk to their kids, whatever. They sometimes show me pictures of their kids while I’m getting dressed. It’s not a big deal to them.”.
Why do married men cheat with prostitutes?

People don't belong together if one of them is a cheater.

"Recent research shows that more than 35 percent of men who have been married for more than 10 years have an affair at some point in their relationship. That means one out of every three "happily" married men is keeping a very large secret from his wife and kids."

"Risk factors for cheating include being unsatisfied in the relationship, an imbalanced sex ratio, or any opportunity for one-on-one interaction."

The Unfiltered Truth Behind Why Married Men Cheat

"Temptation" is not a valid excuse,

It's not an excuse, it's a thing; e.g. Sex workers, women who dress like sex workers, women who don't know how speak to a man without flirting.

Are you saying if you seduced a man to sleep with you, you wouldn't be to blame at all because temptation isn't "an excuse"?

like they're mindless animals that can't control their urges!)

That's what the sex business is for. That's the presumption that led to anyone having such jobs. And why do they need to control their urges when there's women just waiting to sleep with the next person that walks in through the door? - waiting with "dignity", of course.

Bar pickups and the like are not "low moral standards," it's humans being humans.

It's humans being animals. Haven't you seen how they "hook up", it's the same way people do in the bar

The only time the other person is to blame is if they somehow know the person's married, then yes, they are to blame too.

And sex workers know that about half of their customers are probably married.

I don't know why you assume I have such bad faith beliefs as considering it a "service" to cheat. Surely you think better of me than that?

I don't think of you at all. Don't take it so personally.

 

[Wildswanderer]

"Are associated with"...this kind of phrase is called "weasel words"
because they appear to have substance, but don't actually claim
anything. It should be about causation.
The study doesn't address the benefit of fewer sex workers &
customers being abused in the "justice industrial complex",
eg, arrest, fining, prison, criminal record wrecking lives.

Human trafficking is about people held against their will,
& being forced into dangerous work & circumstances.
That is what arrests & prison impose too. Analyzing
legalization of sex work requires balancing these
competing horrors to find the best outcome.

The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking
inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.

• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.

 

[Revoltingest]

The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking
inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.

• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.

What about this issue....
Human trafficking is about people held against their will,
& being forced into dangerous work & circumstances.
That is what arrests & prison impose too. Analyzing
legalization of sex work requires balancing these
competing horrors to find the best outcome.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

or any opportunity for one-on-one interaction."

Out of everything that was bolded. What do we do to fix that? Admit men and women can be platonic with eachother and quit obsessing over sex, or do we discourage one on one interactions?
The path of not obsessing and not caring about the sex lives of others seems way better.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you saying if you seduced a man to sleep with you, you wouldn't be to blame at all because temptation isn't "an excuse"?

The woman (to make the example accurate) would be responsible because she wasn't being mind controlled. Meow wasn't forcing her. Meow didn't have the choice removed as an option, amd this hypothetical woman could still decline.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How sad. I don't think, I know. I've had friends of both sexes, and have known people with friends of the opposite (but one who did sleep with a male friend she and he where tired of people who think like you and accusing them and seeing them as guilty anyways).
Really, it's not the best way of life, to be so rigid and segregated in friendship because you're scared people might have sex. Sure, some will. So what? It doesn't concern, involve, or effect you in any way.

 

[Shakeel]

The woman (to make the example accurate) would be responsible because she wasn't being mind controlled. Meow wasn't forcing her. Meow didn't have the choice removed as an option, amd this hypothetical woman could still decline.

OK. So if I give a drunk 18-year-old car keys and urge him to drive home until he agrees, I'm not responsible for whatever happens? If I urge a young woman to get into a car with a suspicious stranger, I'm not responisble for whatever happens?

Now we can't blame the media for anything anymore. Not video games, not friends, not influencers, not tv. We are completely responsible and it is socially acceptable (in your world) to tell someone to kill themselves, because they aren't mind controlled so you have zero responsibility.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

OK. So if I give a drunk 18-year-old car keys and urge him to drive home until he agrees, I'm not responsible for whatever happens?

Intoxicated people can't consent. When it comes to sex, using alcohol to gain consent is considered rape in many places.

Now we can't blame the media for anything anymore. Not video games, not friends, not influencers, not tv. We are completely responsible

Video games, TV, music and such have not been linked to violent behaviors are any if the sort. Those who believe this are just looking for excuses and easy scapegoats.

it is socially acceptable (in your world) to tell someone to kill themselves, because they aren't mind controlled so you have zero responsibility.

No, that it is never cool.

If I urge a young woman to get into a car with a suspicious stranger, I'm not responisble for whatever happens?

Yes, you are responsible for urging her to do something reckless and dangerous.

 

[Meow Mix]

Then you're being hypocritical. The purpose of the sex business is nothing but to ruin people and families. Nothing good comes out of living for one's sexual desires. They might as well live in the woods like animals.

It's not hypocritical to want sex workers to live better lives while simultaneously not wanting people to cheat on each other.

Only addicts "live for" their sexual desires, and there are addicts for anything in the world. Sex work is obviously a social extreme, but not everyone that would touch on the market is an addict "living for" sexual desires. Again I can't speak for prostitution as I've never interacted with any of that, but things like strip clubs are just dumb harmless fun.

Sexuality, like anything else, can be an addiction for some people (and those people need help, as with any other addiction); but name any thing and there is probably someone addicted to it. That doesn't make sexuality animalistic or even on a moral spectrum (unless there are things like nonconsent in the picture, etc). Religions might have particular taboos on sexuality, and that's okay for religious folks: they may live as they please.

But just because someone watches porn alone or with a partner, or goes to a strip club for a bachelor party, or whatever, doesn't make people hedonistic animals just because sexuality is involved. People are still people; religious taboos are not everybody's taboos. Responsible, mature adults are capable of doing things that involve sexuality while still being well-balanced, productive members of society. The people that can't have a problem and they need help.

So, if my job is to slaughter cows. The cows are hit on the head and then brought to me and I will cut them open from the belly and let the blood pour out. If they're alive I cause them unimaginable pain and suffering. Now, because they've been hit on the head so hard, they're hoped to be dead, but the tests show that 40% are still alive and awake when they get to me. I know this and I continue to kill them cruelly whether they're awake and aware or not.

Am I guilty of cruelty?

If the answer is no, then we'll just have to conclude that your idea of personal responsibility is lacking something, if the answer is yes, you're a hypocrite.

"Let me start off with the escort feedback. According to the escorts I spoke to, roughly 75% of their clients are married, often traveling on business. (...)

According to one respondent, “they’re almost all married, and I don’t think I have ever seen one try to hide it from me. They will take calls from their wives while I’m there, talk to their kids, whatever. They sometimes show me pictures of their kids while I’m getting dressed. It’s not a big deal to them.”.
Why do married men cheat with prostitutes?

"Recent research shows that more than 35 percent of men who have been married for more than 10 years have an affair at some point in their relationship. That means one out of every three "happily" married men is keeping a very large secret from his wife and kids."

"Risk factors for cheating include being unsatisfied in the relationship, an imbalanced sex ratio, or any opportunity for one-on-one interaction."

The Unfiltered Truth Behind Why Married Men Cheat

Yes, you would be guilty of cruelty in your example. I did not know about these stats for escorts and married people being that brazen with them. I do consider that a serious moral failing on their part.

It's not an excuse, it's a thing; e.g. Sex workers, women who dress like sex workers, women who don't know how speak to a man without flirting.

Are you saying if you seduced a man to sleep with you, you wouldn't be to blame at all because temptation isn't "an excuse"?

That's what the sex business is for. That's the presumption that led to anyone having such jobs. And why do they need to control their urges when there's women just waiting to sleep with the next person that walks in through the door? - waiting with "dignity", of course.

Temptation really isn't an excuse though. If these men are cheating on their wives because they saw an opportunity, that means they were always going to be a cheater. People in healthy relationships don't jump ship at the sight of the first (or second, or third...) opportunity: these men are pigs. If the sex worker doesn't know they're married, they're blameless. If they do, then I agree that's also a moral failing. But we should still be pinning the bulk of the blame where it belongs, and that's on the cheater.

It's humans being animals. Haven't you seen how they "hook up", it's the same way people do in the bar

There is nothing wrong with this. Human adults can go home with other human adults for companionship and that is not a moral failing. I do this. Many people do this. If someone is against having premarital sex, that is fine for them; but it doesn't mean everybody else is just some animal. Just because some people do this unsafely (bad partner choice, not using protection, this sort of thing) doesn't mean that everybody does this irresponsibly. Sex is not a shameful thing.

And sex workers know that about half of their customers are probably married.

I don't think of you at all. Don't take it so personally.

Now that just hurts, Shakeel (I'm just teasing). More seriously though, perhaps if you were more open to friendship and acquaintanceship with other people (and didn't assume the worst of their intentions in discussion) you'd be enriched. I obviously don't agree with everybody I talk to here, but it still enriches my thought processes; and you can be friends with people you disagree with. Humans are pretty neat, fellowship can cross nearly any boundary. I know our worldviews are not often going to be in alignment, but you can call me friend or acquaintance if you wish. You've bore me no personal ill will.

 

[Meow Mix]

Islam prohibits one-on-one interaction and it is the best way of life so.. Quit lying that men and women can be friends without sexual feelings because we all know the biology - we're all one of the two. You can be ignorant enough to think it doesn't matter, but no one sexually healthy and self-aware will deny it.

For instance, flirting has become just a normal way of speaking for women. They do that with their friends, teachers, co-workers, bosses etc. It is difficult to find a woman talking to a man, unrelated to her, without flirting. However, they don't do so with little children or old people or women. To those they speak in a different manner.

I disagree with this. I have many male friends (I live with two men even). There are times where some men (some men) have tried to cross boundaries, but one of two things has always happened: either they accept "no" for an answer and it never comes up again, or they cease to be friends. It's that simple. There are plenty of men (a majority) that have never even attempted making a pass.

Now I know there's the extenuating factor that I'm not really sexually attracted to men, and people know this. But of my girl friends, same thing: they have plenty of friends that are men that never make a pass; or friends who have and accepted the answer was no.

It would be a cold world without many of the men in my life, who have so enriched it. It's not my place to say Islam is wrong if it prohibits this: if people want to live that way, then that's their choice (I feel a tinge of pity, though). But this doesn't mean it's true for everybody else. Men and women make inseparable friends all the time without sexual tension.

As for this flirting business, I wonder what's being interpreted as flirting? A woman being nice or playful with a man is not the same thing as flirting: it is just having an upbeat attitude, spreading joy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not my place to say Islam is wrong if it prohibits this

I'll say it. Islam is wrong for promoting this. Segregating people has only ever caused more problems than it solves, but adding diversity and having people interact with others who aren't like themselves consistently does good for a society.
It may be a great first step in radicalized groups and ultra-repressive Muslim countries in making for a more peaceful and less violent society.

As for this flirting business, I wonder what's being interpreted as flirting? A woman being nice or playful with a man is not the same thing as flirting: it is just having an upbeat attitude, spreading joy.

I got the impression it's mistaking kindness and friendliness as flirting.

 

[Earthtank]

Sex work should be decriminalized

No, it should not.

Criminalization makes sex workers more vulnerable to assault, rape, and even murder

For the overwhelming majority, no one is forced to be a prostitutes, its a decision they make and decisions have consequences.

The stigma

It's not a stigma when its true. It a dirty, degrading and disgusting thing to do. No need to destigmatize such filth, return shame back to humanity and work on trying to "clean" it up rather than drown it in it's own filth

 

[Meow Mix]

No, it should not.



For the overwhelming majority, no one is forced to be a prostitutes, its a decision they make and decisions have consequences.



It's not a stigma when its true. It a dirty, degrading and disgusting thing to do. No need to destigmatize such filth, return shame back to humanity and work on trying to "clean" it up rather than drown it in it's own filth

Did you have any argument to add other than just spitting vitriol at some of the most marginalized and vulnerable people?

 

[Earthtank]

Did you have any argument to add other than just spitting vitriol at some of the most marginalized and vulnerable people?

No, Ma'am. Just that

 

[Meow Mix]

No, Ma'am. Just that

Ok. So I understand that some people don’t like sex work, they feel feelings of revulsion at the idea, this and that. I get it. It’s not for me either. But is this a good reason to allow people to continue working in unsafe conditions (or to phrase it better, should we continue to allow conditions to be unsafe for this thing that has always existed and always will?)

 

[Earthtank]

Ok. So I understand that some people don’t like sex work, they feel feelings of revulsion at the idea, this and that. I get it. It’s not for me either. But is this a good reason to allow people to continue working in unsafe conditions (or to phrase it better, should we continue to allow conditions to be unsafe for this thing that has always existed and always will?)

My comments ONLY apply to those who choose this kind of "work", it does not apply to the people are bought/sold or forced in to it. So with that, I think you are asking the wrong question. Instead of improving the "working" conditions for something that you say is not for you, which I also understand as (please correct me if I am wrong) not something you personally support or will choose for yourself, why don't you ask how you can help people from ending as sex workers and putting their lives at risk?

should we continue to allow conditions to be unsafe for this thing that has always existed and always will?

Child molestation and rape have always existed as well and unfortunately always will, want to improve those conditions too? How long something existed is not a criteria nor a basis to base your stance off of

 

[Shakeel]

Video games, TV, music and such have not been linked to violent behaviors are any if the sort. Those who believe this are just looking for excuses and easy scapegoats.

I wasn't talking about violence.

Yes, you are responsible for urging her to do something reckless and dangerous.

You're contradicting yourself. When you argued that a seducer gets no blame you said it's because the target isn't being mind controlled. But neither is the person in the mentioned example.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're contradicting yourself. When you argued that a seducer gets no blame you said it's because the target isn't being mind controlled. But neither is the person in the mentioned example.

No contradictions. I don't see it as black and white where guilt is assigned to one party or the other.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions.