Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27

[Dawnofhope]

Part 2

Seventy weeks equal here to 70 years; not 490 years. We cannot contradict History. The Jews spent 70 years
of exile in Babylon, not 490 years. All in verse 24 was fulfilled at the end of the exile until the anointing of the Most Holy back in Jerusalem.

Years, not only in Biblical terms but also according to the circumstances could be taken as days or weeks or any other term of time specified according to the circumstances. When the spies were commanded by Moses
to go and scout the Land, they took 40 days. So, according to the circumstances, a day would count for a year that they would spend in the desert aka 40 years. But, in the case of Daniel 9:24 according to the circumstances, it was a week for a year; 70 weeks, 70 years and not 490 years. If prophecies don't go according to History, the prophecy is false. For instance, when the prophecy of Mat. 12:40 was given that, as Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish, Jesus would spend what time in the grave, 3 years? As you can see, it is not every time that a day in prophecy is supposed to mean a year. It is all a matter of conventionalization. In Daniel 9:24 it was conventionalized to mean 70 weeks, 70 years, not 490.

You make some interesting points Ben. Can you direct me to an authorised commentary on the verses? Or is it the same problem @rosends eludes to?

I'm fascinated as to how the Christians and Jews see such different and contradictory meanings from verses like these.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jerusalem What does “Finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity” refer to?

Daniel 9 begins with Daniel praying to God on behalf of His people. At the time the Hebrews had been exiled and this was a direct consequence of their failure to adhere to the Eternal Covenant God made with Moses, Noah, and Abraham.

‘To bring everlasting righteousness’. What does this mean and how could it happen?

Jesus would partially fulfil this prophecy by bringing a New Covenant (Jerimiah 31:31) along with many other Old testament prophecies. The Returned Christ will completely fulfil it (Jeremiah 31:31-34) along with the remaining Old Testament prophecies and those in the New Testament.

Part 3 -

To finish the transgression of God's Law which constituted the reason why the Jews had gone into exile in the first place. So, in Babylon, they were making reconciliation for their iniquity which caused the exile. The Everlasting Righteousness in Hebrew is the Schechinah aka God's presence in the Holy of Hollies that Ezra came first to Israel to prepare the Levites to receive. The Mission had turn out to become a struggle to fix not only the Levites but the Jews in general who had got involved with "hitbolelut" aka mix-marriage with non-Jewish women in Babylon. No prophecy at all was fulfilled by Jesus; but only according to Christian preconceived notions. Besides, what we have from Jeremiah 31:31 was a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. No mention of Gentiles. Jesus is dead and, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, he could no longer fulfill any thing whatsoever.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There is nothing called an authorized version -- who would authorize it? When studying, we learn the Hebrews, look in the Aramaic, and read the commentaries in order to create an understanding. An English version that I might like would be the end result of a translator's consulting all sorts of complementary information which you might say is not authoritative or relevant. A literal translation will end up with a meaningless mess, or worse, one whose meaning goes against the understanding and practice of the people who have been studying the text for years. So if you are looking for an English version, realize that you are looking to assess the agenda of the translator and see if his theology/politics agrees with yours.

I appreciate that is your view and I recall my discussions with Tumah could continue no further because of this a while ago. Discussions with Christians at least have a common starting point with translations we can both accept. Obviously there is a whole discussion about the pros and cons of this approach that I would not want to rehash. In the interim I make the best of the Christian translations until I have a better option. It seems like a hollow gesture to use JPS if its not accepted by those whom I would want most to have discussions with.

Learning Hebrew and Aramaic is simply not an option.

 

[rosends]

I appreciate that is your view and I recall my discussions with Tumah could continue no further because of this a while ago. Discussions with Christians at least have a common starting point with translations we can both accept. Obviously there is a whole discussion about the pros and cons of this approach that I would not want to rehash. In the interim I make the best of the Christian translations until I have a better option. It seems like a hollow gesture to use JPS if its not accepted by those whom I would want most to have discussions with.

Learning Hebrew and Aramaic is simply not an option.

I could direct you to a translation online that might be closer to a common starting point, but you might look at parts and say "that defies logic."
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

The Stone edition (not online) is one which many religious Jews use.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I could direct you to a translation online that might be closer to a common starting point, but you might look at parts and say "that defies logic."
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

The Stone edition (not online) is one which many religious Jews use.

That's excellent. At least its a starting point. I wonder how widely it is accepted amongst Jews though? I've had at least two (post #25 and post #28) of your coreligionists recommend the JPS but I know your thoughts about that one.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You make some interesting points Ben. Can you direct me to an authorised commentary on the verses? Or is it the same problem @rosends eludes to?

I'm fascinated as to how the Christians and Jews see such different and contradictory meanings from verses like these.

The only commentary I can offer you is my own logical reasoning of the text as a result of my own research in tune with History.

 

[roger1440]

Avoid the JPS, especially the 1917 version. The updated one is not as egregious but still, not the "best" or prefered. Certainly not "authorized."

I have this one in the PDF format? Is this one ok?

The Jewish Study Bible: Featuring The Jewish Publication Society TANAKH Translation: Adele Berlin, Marc Zvi Brettler, Michael Fishbane: 9780195297515: Amazon.com: Books

 

[psychoslice]

I don't want to go into it, but the Seventh Day Adventist have a really good interpretation on Daniels prophesy, the best I have ever heard.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't want to go into it, but the Seventh Day Adventist have a really good interpretation on Daniels prophesy, the best I have ever heard.

That is true. They prophesised 1844, the year the Baha'i Faith came about. Unfortunately they were probably taking other scriptures too literally. eg Jesus appearing on the clouds, stars falling from heaven...

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

 

[psychoslice]

That is true. They prophesised 1844, the year the Baha'i Faith came about. Unfortunately they were probably taking other scriptures too literally. eg Jesus appearing on the clouds, stars falling from heaven...

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

Yes they certainly do take the second coming literally, I was one once and heard that all the time, hence their name the Adventist......the advent of Jesus.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes they certainly do take the second coming literally, I was one once and heard that all the time, hence their name the Adventist......the advent of Jesus.

A few months ago I attended a seventh day Adventist study group. A friend who recently became a Baha'i's has a brother who attends this group. We were invited. It was all this prophecy that connected with the Baha'i Faith, but no amount of explanation could change their literal interpretations of some scripture.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes they certainly do take the second coming literally, I was one once and heard that all the time, hence their name the Adventist......the advent of Jesus.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This verse shouldn't be interpreted literally as we have something ridiculous happening. To me it means those who have fallen away from Christianity will be the first to recognise the returned Christ. Why these people and not the 'righteous and holy' Christians? Because many Christians are so blinded by literal interpretations and false dogmas, that they have become essentially blind to the truth.

 

[psychoslice]

A few months ago I attended a seventh day Adventist study group. A friend who recently became a Baha'i's has a brother who attends this group. We were invited. It was all this prophecy that connected with the Baha'i Faith, but no amount of explanation could change their literal interpretations of some scripture.

Yes they do take liberalism seriously, that is why I left them, they all prayed for me, when in truth they should be praying for themselves.

 

[psychoslice]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This verse shouldn't be interpreted literally as we have something ridiculous happening. To me it means those who have fallen away from Christianity will be the first to recognise the returned Christ. Why these people and not the 'righteous and holy' Christians? Because many Christians are so blinded by literal interpretations and false dogmas, that they have become essentially blind to the truth.

I agree and well said, this is a song I wrote when being SDA.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The only commentary I can offer you is my own logical reasoning of the text as a result of my own research in tune with History.

Ben, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me.

Are there any other places in the Tanakh where weeks mean a year?

Obviously the 70 years of exile fits. But so does the 490 years with Christ's crucifixion. Most Christians would interpret one day for a year. Christ himself referred to this prophecy on two occasions.

Jesus refers to seven seventies when asked how many times we should forgive someone.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."
Matthew 18:21-22

Jesus refers to Daniel 9:26-27 through Matthew 24:15 in regards the abomination that causes desolation.

That being said I'm certainly keen to better understand your views here and hope to get back to you soon with further questions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I agree and well said, this is a song I wrote when being SDA.

I love it Robert. You have even quoted the verse from Paul I shared.

I'm a singer-songwriter too. Doesn't pay the bills though

 

[psychoslice]

I love it Robert. You have even quoted the verse from Paul I shared.

I'm a singer-songwriter too. Doesn't pay the bills though

Wow that's interesting, I can't play the guitar for nuts but I try my best to bring out what is within me........this song I wrote after I left the church.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me. Are there any other places in the Tanakh where weeks mean a year? Obviously the 70 years of exile fits. But so does the 490 years with Christ's crucifixion. Most Christians would interpret one day for a year. Christ himself referred to this prophecy on two occasions. Jesus refers to seven seventies when asked how many times we should forgive someone. "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22 Jesus refers to Daniel 9:26-27 through Matthew 24:15 in regards the abomination that causes desolation. That being said I'm certainly keen to better understand your views here and hope to get back to you soon with further questions.

No, the only place where one week means one year is in Daniel 9:24, and the Christian claim of 490 years fits nowhere in the Tanach. You guys have to separate the NT from the Tanach. The NT is Hellenistic and the Tanach is Jewish. That's quite two different realms. To keep mingling them together is the cause for vandalism of the Tanach by the NT. The seven seventies has nothing to do with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24. Jesus did not refer to Daniel 9:26,27. That's an act of Christian forgery into the book of Daniel.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wow that's interesting, I can't play the guitar for nuts but I try my best to bring out what is within me........this song I wrote after I left the church.

I see with the Eastern religious leanings that may be why you left. Embracing Buddhism and Hinduism and being parts of the Seventh Day Adventists would probably not be a good mix.

 

[psychoslice]

I see with the Eastern religious leanings that may be why you left. Embracing Buddhism and Hinduism and being parts of the Seventh Day Adventists would probably not be a good mix.

Yes I think your right, Buddhism especially made much more sense than Christianity, but that's my opinion, I really see no need for any religion, If you are a naturally a good person, why the hell do you need religion ??>