Setting out on a new road? I think so.

[Jainarayan]

I've been growing increasingly disillusioned with Hindu practice and beliefs. I've been pretty much a deist over the past 20-25 years, with a belief in other divine beings, such as the Hindu deities. I think I forced myself into adopting Full-On-Hinduism.

However, I've been drawn to Avalokiteshvara for some time now. Avalokiteshvara is the bodhisattva of infinite compassion. Amitābha is the Buddha of Infinite Light, and principal buddha in the Pure Land sect, a branch of Mahāyāna Buddhism. One thing has led to another, and I'm delving into Pure Land. I revere the Hindu deities, as well as the Tibetan and Taoist deities, and I have them in my shrine, but my focus is on Amitābha, cultivating bodhicitta, and reaching Amitābha's western Pure Land. I found a short Pure Land sādhanā.

When I mentally chant om namo amitābha buddha I can actually feel and see something I never could meditating on Vishnu om namo narāyānāya, Krishna om namo bhagavate vāsudevāya or even Shiva om namah shivāya, which I tried. It's just not there.

Someone told me a while ago that by my interest in Buddhism, reading about it and incorporating the Five Precepts into my life, is by default taking refuge. So maybe that's why I lost my affinity for Hinduism. The Buddhist substrate was there. In fact as I look back (hindsight has 20/20 vision), I realize that if there were a philosophy to follow other than Christianity, it would have been Buddhism.

No, I'm not calling myself a Buddhist... too many labels like "-ists" and "-isms" thrown around... just do it and labels be damned.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I wish you many blessings :namaste: It sounds like you have been refining your personal philosophy and beliefs or a long time and that this is the latest stage in what I hope brings you peace and happiness.

Does leaving Hinduism behind come with any sad feelings? Or does it simply feel like a change of clothes? Almost like you're refreshed now? And what does your partner think of it? I'm happy that you are brave enough to re-examine your faith and go inward. It's important never to loose that ability.

:camp:

 

[Jainarayan]

I wish you many blessings :namaste: It sounds like you have been refining your personal philosophy and beliefs or a long time and that this is the latest stage in what I hope brings you peace and happiness.

Thanks. :namaste

Indeed, this is not sudden. What is sudden is deciding to bite the bullet. I called it "making a leap"; someone said "so leap already!" Someone else said there is no leap, because we have to do away with the '-isms' and '-ists' I mentioned.

Does leaving Hinduism behind come with any sad feelings? Or does it simply feel like a change of clothes? Almost like you're refreshed now? And what does your partner think of it? I'm happy that you are brave enough to re-examine your faith and go inward. It's important never to loose that ability.

:camp:

No leaving behind, really, because as I mentioned, several deities have their place. I still have Sri Ganesha, Mā Lakshmi, Sri Hanuman, Sri Rāma Parivar, Sri Krishna; Mā Durga & Mā Kali; Mā Saraswati (she is prominent in Buddhism, believe it or not); and a beautiful framed picture of Harihara (the anthropomorphic representation of Brahman) in the shrine.

It does feel like a change of clothes, and refreshing, however, in that I came to the realization that because I've really always been a deist, it's a departure from the necessity of rituals and scriptures. This is simply a way of living, not a religion. Though the deities set examples and reflect aspects of our lives.

I said this in the Theists Only! section, which kind of sums it up:

I have no intention of not reciting the Mahamrtyunjaya Mantra; asato mā sad gamaya tamaso mā jyotir gamaya mṛtyor māmṛtaṃ gamaya; the Gayatri Mantra; Shubham karoti kalyānam ārogyam dhana sampadā shatru buddhi vinashāya dīpa jyotir namostute [prayer when lighting the lamp]; Sarveṣāṁ Svastir Bhavatu Sarveṣāṁ Śāntir Bhavatu Sarveṣāṁ Pūrṇaṁ Bhavatu Sarveṣāṁ Maṅgalaṁ Bhavatu [prayer for all beings]; and selected other mantras and prayers. Do they not apply? Of course they do... I haven't kicked Lord Shiva, or Lord Vishnu or Suryadeva to the curb!

I'm really a simple, low maintenance kind of guy, who does best with a simple low maintenance relationship with God (yes I'm a theist, but more of a deist... God is Brahman-like to me ), the deities, buddhas and bodhisattvas. Whether one prays to, envisions and thinks of Amitābha Buddha, or Krishna, or Jesus, or Chenrezig, they will all lead one to enlightenment, "salvation", "heaven". Remember: Jāki rahi bhāvanā jaisi prabhu mūrat dekhi tin taisi (everyone sees "God" in his own way) and Ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti (The Truth is one; the wise know it by many names). There's room for all.

My partner doesn't know and doesn't care. I don't mean that as snarky as it sounds. He's non-practicing Roman Catholic, except for sayinf his prayers. He knows I have a universalist approach. I speak of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism in a blended and melded fashion. He doesn't really know the detailed differences, because I don't make a big deal of them. What he knows is that I have deities all over the place, and that they are from somewhere "over there" (east and south Asia). Stuff like that.

Btw, something I found out is that rudrāksha mālās are used for japa for buddhas and bodhisattvas. Guess what I have... I used the rudrāksha mālā for my japa; it felt perfectly normal and natural. It's customary to keep it spiraled up in a clockwise direction on the altar. It's also perfectly OK to wear the japa mālā, because it is a tool and can be an aid to mindfulness. There is no stricture against wearing and doing japa on the same mālā. I may begin wearing it, but probably not when I go to the gym, so it doesn't get messed up.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I gotta say, I myself am becoming more interested in Pure Land Buddhism. The only thing I'm trying to get over is the notion that, of all the Buddhist sects, it is the most "faith based" (as I mentioned on the other forum). Given my liking for Advaita Shaivism and Mahayana Buddhism, maybe I'll consider myself a Kashmiri-Pureland practitioner.

Either way, best of luck in whatever you do.

 

[LuisDantas]

I gotta say, I myself am becoming more interested in Pure Land Buddhism. The only thing I'm trying to get over is the notion that, of all the Buddhist sects, it is the most "faith based" (as I mentioned on the another forum).

It is, IMO. But why is that an obstacle?

 

[StarryNightshade]

It is, IMO. But why is that an obstacle?

Honestly? Probably spiritual baggage from when I was a Southern Baptist.

As a theist, I believe that the quest for knowledge and the ability to reason within one's faith or path are essential. At least, they are to me; as that is how I practice my spirituality/religion. When I hear something is "faith based", it conjures up memories and images of "believe in it just because" or "by faith alone" spirituality. That simply believing is all that is needed.

Of course, as one who takes inspiration from the Buddha, perhaps I shouldn't let this be an attachment which causes suffering.

 

[Jainarayan]

I gotta say, I myself am becoming more interested in Pure Land Buddhism. The only thing I'm trying to get over is the notion that, of all the Buddhist sects, it is the most "faith based" (as I mentioned on the another forum). Given my liking for Advaita Shaivism and Mahayana Buddhism, maybe I'll consider myself a Kashmiri-Pureland practitioner.

Yes, it is faith or trust based, but it's not much different from my p.o.v. than having total faith and trust in Krishna or Jesus to obtain salvation. Amitābha, along with Avalokiteśvara aka Chenrezig aka Guānshìyīn Púsà (Guanyin) is the form of "savior", and the practice that appeal to me.

I have my views of God and our relationship to God (close to Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta), and the ātman that, while not in the mainstream of Buddhism, is not entirely incompatible, and actually not even contradicted. There's lots of room for interpretation.

Either way, best of luck in whatever you do.

Thanks, you too. I'm sure we'll be sharing progress.

 

[honeri]

The nice thing about being senile is that you're always meeting new people.

 

[apophenia]

Just let it all go.

Don't choose something else.

 

[Jainarayan]

Just let it all go.

Don't choose something else.

Curious: how do you mean?

 

[apophenia]

Curious: how do you mean?

What happens if you just stop thinking about these things ?
You have a mental habit of considering these 'spiritual issues' significant/necessary. Maybe they aren't significant or necessary.

There is another thread parallel to yours by saint_frankenstein, "Thinking about moving beyond Satanism".

Here is what I posted there -

Spend some extended periods alone in the wilderness, with no communications or entertainment devices or books.

See what happens when the only stimulus is the natural (you know what I mean) world, and there is nothing you need to say to anyone.

Move beyond ism.

I spent decades trying to arrive at an understanding of 'life, the universe and everything'. In the end, I realised that I was chasing my tail. As soon as you assume that these answers are required, or even knowable, you're sucked into an endless process which is really self-generated until you stop doing it.

Just live.

Let it happen.

The sky will not fall if you decide to ignore religion and philosophy for a while. So I'm suggesting you do just that.

Maybe the wilderness thing does not appeal to you. Whatever. Take up another interest to take your mind off religion, and see where you go ... any 'real' spriritual aspects of your life won't disappear - the map is not the territory. Maybe throwing away all the maps will allow you to walk freely in the territory.

 

[Jainarayan]

OK, I understand. I do agree with you. I see it but I seem paralyzed to do anything about it.

What happens if you just stop thinking about these things ?
You have a mental habit of considering these 'spiritual issues' significant/necessary. Maybe they aren't significant or necessary.

Yes, I am prone to analysis paralysis. Keep in mind I am hypomanic/depressive bipolar (type 2), have g.a.d. (general anxiety disorder), o.c.p.d. (obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, different from o.c.d.) and Asperger's. So I'm pretty much a mess even with medications.

Just live.

Let it happen.

The sky will not fall if you decide to ignore religion and philosophy for a while. So I'm suggesting you do just that.

Unfortunately, spontaneity and I are not good friends for the reasons I mentioned. So that's pretty much what makes me tick.

 

[apophenia]

OK, I understand. I do agree with you. I see it but I seem paralyzed to do anything about it.



Yes, I am prone to analysis paralysis. Keep in mind I am hypomanic/depressive bipolar (type 2), have g.a.d. (general anxiety disorder), o.c.p.d. (obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, different from o.c.d.) and Asperger's. So I'm pretty much a mess even with medications.



Unfortunately, spontaneity and I are not good friends for the reasons I mentioned. So that's pretty much what makes me tick.

So use displacement perhaps.

Find something enjoyable and valuable which takes up a lot of your time. It could be art, or yoga, or volunteering for social work (or all three), for example.

Ask yourself - is all this cosmic ideation producing any worthwhile result ?

I do empathise with your situation btw. I know it very well from experience. I think lots of people on RF are in that boat.

 

[Jainarayan]

So use displacement perhaps.

Find something enjoyable and valuable which takes up a lot of your time. It could be art, or yoga, or volunteering for social work (or all three), for example.

It would have to be non-interpersonal, maybe with animals. Arts... well, I play guitar, or I like to think I do. It's a frustration for me because I overthink things there too.

Ask yourself - is all this cosmic ideation producing any worthwhile result ?

To a degree, yes. I have learned to calm down and see people and events, and life in general in a more positive and appreciative light. So it hasn't been a total waste. But it has been at a cost... I don't know how to balance things.

 

[apophenia]

It would have to be non-interpersonal, maybe with animals.

Sounds like a good idea. Volunteer at a zoo ? Animals are so good to be around.

To a degree, yes. I have learned to calm down and see people and events, and life in general in a more positive and appreciative light. So it hasn't been a total waste. But it has been at a cost... I don't know how to balance things.

You may be just associating that with 'spiritual' stuff, and could get the same or better results another way, or ways.

Basic meditation of the sit quietly and focus with a mantra (or sensations) has been proven to have beneficial physical and mental effects - the 'religious' ideas are superfluous. Although, I think that if you can stay disentangled from the dogma, the bhakti style visualisations can have similar effects. You can even invent your own ( HERESY ! LOL). I used hypnosis to help a friend with an immune system disorder. I improvised, based on my knowledge of him, and helped him establish a nice zone by seeing himself as Hanuman happily sitting under a palm tree by the ocean. He was not at all religious, but loved the image. And he recovered. Don't know how much I helped, but it sure didn't hurt.

Just ditch the 'believing' and religious pressure.

 

[Jainarayan]

Sounds like a good idea. Volunteer at a zoo ? Animals are so good to be around.

I've looked into volunteering at the county SPCA, even for a few hours a week. They need all the help they can get.

You may be just associating that with 'spiritual' stuff, and could get the same or better results another way, or ways.

This is true. I'm basically SBNR, "Spiritual But Not Religious", to use a hackneyed phrase. Ironically, I often use the lines from the Hua Hu Ching of Lao Tzu:

Dualistic thinking is a sickness.
Religion is a distortion.
Materialism is cruel.
Blind spirituality is unreal.
Chanting is no more holy than listening to the
murmur of a stream; counting prayer beads no more
sacred than simply breathing; religious robes no
more spiritual than work clothes.
If you wish to attain oneness with the Tao, don’t get
caught up in spiritual superficialities.
Instead, live a quiet and simple life, free of ideas and
concepts.
Find contentment in the practice of undiscriminating
virtue, the only true power.
Giving to others selflessly and anonymously, radiating
light throughout the world and illuminating your
own darkness, your virtue becomes a sanctuary for
yourself and all beings.
This is what is meant by embodying the Tao.

I also believe Nara seva Narayana seva, "Service to man is service to God". All the foregoing really should be all there is to it.

Basic meditation of the sit quietly and focus with a mantra (or sensations) has been proven to have beneficial physical and mental effects - the 'religious' ideas are superfluous. Although, I think that if you can stay disentangled from the dogma, the bhakti style visualisations can have similar effects. You can even invent your own ( HERESY ! LOL).

This is really what I'm looking to do. In the clear light of a new morning, I am beginning to sort things out and let the dust settle; the dust I kicked up in re-examining my "relationship" with God and other deities. I have some basic prayers and mantras, and some dharanis that I'll say, candles and incense to light, japa and meditation, and not even every day. I'm dismissing the idea of fulll-blown sadhanas like I posted the links to. I'm not ready for anything that structured, nor do I think I need or want it.

Last night I removed some items from my altar that I did not feel a connection with, but felt I had to have them, because other people said so (I'm quite mentally pliable). For example, I have a small pretty colored resin Rāma Parivar. But know what? I've never felt a closeness or affinity for Rāma. I'm not even sure how I feel about my little Radhā-Krishna. Krishna is adorable in the stories, and the B.G. has some great stuff, but I have a hard time getting close to him also. Now... Narasimha, Shiva, Ganesha, Devi (Lakshmi, Durga, Kali, Saraswati), and Hanuman I feel an affinity for. I feel a particular affinity for Avalokiteshvara/Chenrezig.

Just ditch the 'believing' and religious pressure.

That is my desire and goal. I appreciate your candor, it helps. There are a few others here who feel the way you do. I don't want to call them out, but I can think of two off the top of my head.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hello Jainarayan,

I'm glad I'm not the only one entangled in excessive abstract thinking.

I've managed to get away from theology and traditional religious belief. In a way though, I've replaced it with trying to define the Good Life and am now internally debating new false dichotomies. It's still less stressful than grasping at religious notions since it does have more of a direct practical application. Nevertheless, my thinking still becomes very uptight at times.

I agree with apophenia and others that it's probably best just to forget about the TOE (Theory of Everything). Any perspective that we engage is context-dependent and has a limited range of utility. The most useful perspectives are those that recognize their own limitations.

Leisurely pursuits are a good way to get outside your head. Immersing yourself in primal nature and letting go of artificial distinctions are other ways. It's such a relief whenever I remember to just take it easy and go with the flow of things as they actually are rather than as I might imagine them to be.

 

[Jainarayan]

I've managed to get away from theology and traditional religious belief.

That's exactly what I'm in the process of doing. I've done it before and I felt good for it. I rebel against dogma. That's what's prompted this whole change.

I agree with apophenia and others that it's probably best just to forget about the TOE (Theory of Everything). Any perspective that we engage is context-dependent and has a limited range of utility. The most useful perspectives are those that recognize their own limitations.

Leisurely pursuits are a good way to get outside your head. Immersing yourself in primal nature and letting go of artificial distinctions are other ways. It's such a relief whenever I remember to just take it easy and go with the flow of things as they actually are rather than as I might imagine them to be.

:yes: That's why I'm not calling or declaring myself anything anymore. I am settling back into my core beliefs and leaving it at that.

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and
is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. - The Buddha

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I gotta say, I myself am becoming more interested in Pure Land Buddhism. The only thing I'm trying to get over is the notion that, of all the Buddhist sects, it is the most "faith based" (as I mentioned on the other forum). Given my liking for Advaita Shaivism and Mahayana Buddhism, maybe I'll consider myself a Kashmiri-Pureland practitioner.

Either way, best of luck in whatever you do.

I never understood why many Westerners I've met take a liking to Trika/Parādvaitavāda when first introduced to Hinduism, and I still don't understand the "appeal" of kaulatantram. To me, Abhinavagupta's philosophy and influence is highly over-exaggerated, not just by its practitioners, but by many Indologists as well; his philosophy honestly wasn't very well developed and some of his views bordered on sheer ridiculousness, as is evident in this verse from Śrītantrālokaḥ:

नारङ्गारुणकान्ति पाण्डुविकचद्बल्लावदातच्छवि प्रोद्भिन्नामलमातुलुङ्गकनकच्छायाभिरामप्रभम्।
केरीकुन्तलकन्दलीप्रतिकृतिश्यामप्रभाभास्वरं यस्मिञ्शक्तिचतुष्टयोज्ज्वलमलं मद्यं महाभैरवम्॥३७.४२॥

Transliteration:
nāraṅgāruṇakānti pāṇḍuvikacadballāvadātacchavi prodbhinnāmalamātuluṅgakanakacchāyābhirāmaprabham।
kerīkuntalakandalīpratikṛtiśyāmaprabhābhāsvaraṃ yasmiñśakticatuṣṭayojjvalamalaṃ madyaṃ mahābhairavam॥37.42॥

To each his own, I guess. If you view an individual who compares his iṣṭa-devatā to intoxicants like wine as a spiritual guide, then feel free to do so; I really don't have any say regarding the matter.

 

[Jainarayan]

I never understood why many Westerners I've met take a liking to Trika/Parādvaitavāda when first introduced to Hinduism, and I still don't understand the "appeal" of kaulatantram.

If I can venture or hazard a guess, speaking somewhat from personal experience, it's because it's so radically different from western thought, especially Christianity. It may appeal to some westerners because they do have an affinity for certain eastern philosophies, and they find there is a name for it. Attraction to the eastern philosophies may also be a rebellion against the dogma of western philosophy and religion.