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Featured Self-actualization and Idolatry

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    And if there is a counterfeit spirit also inherited from another source? What if someone were trusting in that? How would they know?
     
  2. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Nothing can be purer than fundamental consciousness, but it seems you do not agree.

    As I already said - pray to your God, savior, whoever it is. There is a heart connection.

    Now let me predict your next question:
    "How does one know their saviour is their saviour or their God is Good?"
    Answer: From history, experience, faith, of yourself and others.

    There is a thing called community. Community, Elders, society, humanity, and past experience comes in. Identify collective wisdom like a bee collects nectar -- we have the equipment. We also have laws.

    If a person is really controlled by an evil spirit and lost their vivek (discriminatory intellect of right-wrong), there will surely be someone around them who takes notice? Parent or friend or ... even the cashier at the store?
    At least one good right person takes notice and will work through the people to protect the affected individual.

    There is safety in numbers. So many good people in the world today, religious or not. There may be pockets of villagers in some corners somewhere that are not getting education or electricity. Immediately the urban society chips in to reform,help, educate ... this is how God works thru people. A natural disaster occurs somewhere -- and help is sent from all parts of the world.

    It was nice talking to you.
     
  3. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    The consciousness that I once had and see all around me would not seem like pure fundamental consciousness. But for you, all consciousness, including counterfeit self’s/ego’s of that came and was birthed from the same Source.

    My next question would be why should someone trust in the source from which their darkness and ignorance came from? It would be like being the source of darkness and ignorance while also being the savior from darkness and ignorance. Both the problem and solution. How does a source of pure consciousness error in such a way?

    Or collective hive consciousness of counterfeit ego, who are all overly sure of themselves.

    The common/main rights and wrongs are easy to spot and notice. The more subtle ones... not so much. There are few who may take notice and they could be perceived as the lowly, insane, and morons of the world, so their voices can pretty much be eliminated.
     
    #23 Road Less Traveled, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  4. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    I could see that you have not understood what Original Source, Ultimate Substratum of Existence (Brahman') means. You have been superimposing Abrahamic ideas on it.

    Are you a Christian? Then, FYI, God and Jesus appeared from of the same Substratum of Existence that the Devil or Satan or Demons came from later (derivations). So, these exact questions can be echoed back to you.

    (i) If you claim God is the Ultimate Source of Existence, then He gave rise to demons as well as angels because nothing can be outside of the base substratum.
    (ii) If this were not the case, then God is not the ultimate source, but appears from the Source, from which are derived the demons also.
    QN: Why could God not stop the demons from existing?
    -------
    My God, Lord, Everything, is VishNu, a Pure-Goodness Omnipresent-Omniscient form of the same Brahman' (Ultimate Substratum of Existence) , who lives in the hearts of devotees, and to whom we turn to when demonic activity rises on earth.
    He comes to our rescue. To protect us from evil, demons, wicked etc
    paritrANaya sAdhunAm vinAvshAya cha dushkRutAm dharma sansthApanArthAya sambhavAmi yuge yuge. - Bhagvad Geeta 4.8

    In order to protect and deliver the pious/good and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of righteousness/goodness, I appear, Myself, millennium after millennium.

    The demons came from the same Brahman' albeit indirectly, due to a higher proportion of tamas (ignorance-darkness) . Why did VishNu allow the proportion of tamas to increase to give rise to demons? Because tamas is the 3rd fundamental property of Nature.
    Same reason why God or YHWH allowed the proportion of tamas to increase to give rise to demons. Why could God not stop the demons from existing?

    Who do you take shelter in? God. YHWH. Jehovah. VishNu. Not the demons. And ALL of these came from the same Brahman'. The Source. Do you see now how your arguments were comparing apples to oranges? Saying "My God did not appear from the Substratum of Existence" is mathematically ignorant.

    That could be said about ANY organized religion including the ones that shout "everyone else is engaged in idolatry"

    I agree with this. However, my faith in the Supreme is strong enough to say both the misunderstood (the wise and intuitive treated like an insane, moron) as well as the victim, get justice.
     
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  5. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Same stuff. Brahman/A Braham.

    How would you know if you’re not misunderstood? I don’t mind if you superimpose ideas on it such as all garbage indirectly came from something of Pure Goodness. That doesn’t seem very sensible to me though, that any vile or darkness or ignorance can be born of Pure Goodness, Pure Awareness. Good mental exercise, not trying to argue with you. I don’t wish to strike any nerves.

    I don’t consider myself any label. But if I read texts attributed to Jesus, I’d read Jesus (if words attributed accurately to) speaking of 2 different Fathers(Sources.)
     
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  6. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Yes, yes. I agree, and thank you. We are both sincere in the quest I can see that.

    No, again you are missing my point. The garbage did not come from Pure Goodness - which is the first subtle effect of the cause.
    It came from the Material Nature associated with Ultimate Substratum of Existence
    , but because high levels of passion+ignorance (2nd and 3rd fundamental properties of nature) in the ratios of a few created beings.
    If you know of any basic basic fundamental properties of nature apart from
    (i) Pure Goodness
    (ii) Pure Passion
    (iii) Pure Ignorance, lithargy, inertia
    Let me know. What happens is , an Nth degree derivative of mixtures of the 3 original properties of nature , when (ii) mixed with (iii) and 2+3 mixed with 3 and so on, becomes really high, that causes demons.

    You have not answered my question though : Hypothetically, if you were to depend on "a" Source of Pure Goodness, why is it that this Source of Pure Goodness can't or won't stop demons from existing?
    Why doesn't God stop demons from coming into existence?
    VishNu destroys demons when they cross limits, but why doesn't He stop or prevent their existence in the first place?

    Are God or VishNu not Sources of Pure Goodness? Then why?

    ---
    While I wait for your answer, here is my understanding:
    The reason is that they allow Nature to BE. Mother Nature. Fundamentals of manifested existence.
    Energy -- Matter. Dynamic -- Static.
    The most inert inanimate matter that cannot move, has the proper of 100% tamas, i.e. 100% lithargy. It cannot move.
    Without this property, solid state of matter cannot appear.

    Same 2nd and 3rd fundamental property of material nature also invades minds. Now that we have appeared in human bodies here, this is our best chance to learn, and transcend - first the tamas, then rajas, and finally sattva also - as we leave the body. We have to get beyond the 3 modes of material nature to let Brahman' shine.


    For a moment if we say there are N different Fathers, as long as they are of Pure Goodness (vishuddha sattva), then my question above remains. Why did not the best of the Pue Goodness Fathers prevent demons from existing?
     
  7. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    How is it same stuff !

    Brahman stands for Universal Spirit or impersonal God, while Abraham stands for a prophet.


    This is what Vedantic philosophy states, which you can find out for yourself through a study of the subject. It is not Ameyatma's personal opinions or vague speculations, but educated statements based on his knowledge of the philosophy.

    The garbage or evil over here corresponds to the guna or element of Tamas while pure goodness corresponds to Sattva.

    The Self or Brahman or pure consciousness is still subtler than the gunas Sattva, rajas and tamas, stated above.

    Prajñānam brahma - Brahman is pure consciousness (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 of the Rig Veda)


    As Ameyatma stated, nothing is purer than fundamental consciousness, and it is the substrate on which the grosser material existence based on the gunas comes into being.
     
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  8. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Likewise.

    The most sensible explanation would be that it wouldn’t be able to stop such or else it would. If there were a separate source, I’d guess that it too has the same attributes as given to the other Source, only having the polar opposite nature. Just as good can conquer evil, so can evil conquer good. I am no longer programmed to think that the good guys always win, at least in this world.

    I like the serpent symbol, resurrected energy that destroys evil within. Shedding skins, old nature turned into new nature. That’s what most likely it would be limited to in this universe/world, resting dead, trapped, locked up, and dormant within many beings. And as mentioned before a few times, there would be very aware/enlightened beings that know precisely how to intentionally keep that element dead, locked up, and dormant in almost everyone.

    Whatever school of thought it is that doesn’t think this creation/world/universe came from something purely good, purely aware...that would be most sensible to me. That it is an illusion, not as described by a lot of religions with a bunch of fluffy words trying to distort the scope of people’s realities. . . But rather in a deeper sense that not everything is as it seems, very deceptive, and it’s very backwards and upside down. Peel enough layers away, renounce enough indoctrination’s and one will have the proper lens to see it as it truly is.
     
    #28 Road Less Traveled, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  9. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    It’s not my concern how others see texts, or what they mean, what they represent, if seen as literal people to them.

    So essentially.... all pain and suffering, ignorance, maliciousness, darkness all lead back to the singular Source of pure goodness and pure awareness? So pure awareness was fully aware to the monstrosities that would eventually transpire from its substrates? The initial aware source of all of that and also the savior from all of that?
     
  10. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Perhaps that’s your answer as to why pure goodness can’t yet stop it or enter into a created universe/world of darkness. For one reason, it doesn’t belong in this monstrosity. Lots of ‘dark’ matter and ‘dark’ energy. Perhaps booby traps of black holes everywhere. Who knows.

    And I don’t even think ‘matter’ is a problem as it would be neutral. There would have to be an element that makes certain material ‘feel’ certain things that could be a problem. Because even rotting and decaying and diseased bodies wouldn’t be so bad without having to ‘feel’ it happening to magnified degrees.
     
  11. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    It inhibits love and pleasure like an attachment or craving.
     
  12. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    A separate source/father doesn’t have to be of pure goodness.

    Some purely good beings may have come from a pure source/father into this absurd created world/universe but they’ve just been made into a mockery, their teachings heavily distorted, leading to indoctrination’s from religious institutions. Perhaps even trying to save and liberate some folks from this monstrosity that never came into existence from their source/Father. That is our difference.
     
  13. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Well it automatically makes you have an unreal fantasy which always damages your brain integrity.
     
  14. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    The grosser multiverse with matter, energy, space, time and causation is a grosser manifestation of Brahman or pure consciousness.

    The so-called negatives mentioned belongs to the guna of Tamas. Yogic philosophy states that one ought to transcend Tamas, Rajas and finally Sattva to abide in the fundamental state of pure consciousness, also termed as enlightenment.

    Ultimately, there is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

    A shark killing and eating a human being in the ocean may look like a monstrous tragedy to you, but was life-giving food to the shark.

    Darkness may seem negative to some, but most people find the dark conducive to deep sleep rather than light, and without sound sleep one may suffer from bad health.

    A brat may need a healthy dose of suffering and pain to come out of his egoic world and empathize with the unfortunate around him.

    As Krishna says in the Uddhava Gita, " Evil is but seeing relative good and evil."
     
  15. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Brahman sounds gross then, lots of nasty manifestations coming from regardless of how far away, how close, in between. How can anything impure come from something pure?
    Would it just make more sense to say that Brahman is pure and impure and all forms of consciousness?

    This is what most would say if unable to discern the difference.

    Presenting 2 different sources can also resolve this example below of sharks:
    A shark is an evil creature from an evil source. An evil source would only program an animal or specie to have to kill for food and survival.

    Yet to the perception from the evil source from which the shark came and how it was programmed: the shark is a good creature from a good source, and a good animal and specie kills for food to survive.


    There are many different ways to define darkness and light. According to your example: I’d agree, those are of neutrality.

    A brat never asked to exist, be given an egoic world, the potential to become a brat, or need suffering and pain to become empathetic.

    I don’t know if Krishna said that, or someone else made Krishna say that.
     
  16. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    at the absolute, all, the service to self, or love of self is the only thing permissible, possible. there is no other in juxtaposition to self. it loves all of itself; which includes all in ALL. so there is no impure because there is no polarity against self love at the whole and as ONE. there is no good vs evil. there is just the all, or self.


    i am and there is no other because tat tvam asi, or ahmi yat ahmi, or puk nu puk.


    I AM brahman. i and the father are ONE. one eye, one being, one love.



    John 14:20
    At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


    Job 38:7
    When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
     
  17. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    If texts/words attributed accurately to Jesus, there was also the mentioning of other people coming from or being of a different Father.

    Would you consider yourself one with someone if they were from a different Father with a different agenda?
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    those that are from a different father, chose that path of hatred. they have chosen their own ways over the Father's.


    if love were their father, then they would have loved other as self too.


    i get along with the voices inside my head.
     
  19. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Hatred would have come from the All you’re referring to, too. If they choose hatred, they are choosing the same All.
     
  20. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    nope, free will to disconnect and be self realizing only results in the self destruction of the disconnect eventually. the bot cannot overtake the whole hive because the bot is of a lower vibration. it is denser, compacted. it was created. it must return to its uncreated state to be absolute. the service to self at the absolute is self-preserving, self-perpetuating, self-sustaining. the bot isn't. it is dependent upon the physical state that it holds and that moment and will try to self-preserve, love self, maintain that state of density.


    if the bot attempts to self-destruct it will only take another form until it understands that love is the only way. it will have to descend again and again. be trapped in a never ending up/down elevator until it ascends in love.

    love uplifts.

    hate casts down
     
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