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Featured Self-actualization and Idolatry

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Does idolatry inhibit self-actualization? self-realization?
     
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  2. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Yes it does.
     
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  3. paganprince

    paganprince cerridwen devotee

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    i don't think so - if your worshipping, no matter who or what you may be worshipping to, helps you to meditate and ground yourself, then i personally don't think that gets in the way of self-actualization or realization!
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    if all is self then why look any further than the reflection of self?
     
  5. paganprince

    paganprince cerridwen devotee

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    if all is self, then no matter where you are looking, is it not then a reflection or yourself?
     
  6. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Short answer - it would be putting the cart before the horse.

    1. First, there is a gulf of a difference between self with a small s and Self with the Capital S.
    The small s is for the individual ego who has a hard time getting beyond, cross the bridge, hill, to even see the reflection from afar.

    2. The mirror has to be cleaned first. Thick layers of dust make it opaque and typically the self stays blind to the reflection, what to speak of the actual Self.

    3. The One Beloved pulls (read: yanks) the self out of the material dessert (metaphorical) and they both walk ans walk until all the distractions, entanglements, longings, flaws in thought process, attachments, aversions, fall on the wayside because the One Beloved showers this tiny self with lots of unconditional Love, attention, nurturing and gives plenty of demos.

    4. Then one day the local-mind becomes strong, gives up the local-ego and bathes in the glory of the Self.

    This is why the self worships the Beloved One who is its higher power, Higher Self.

    It is a long process full of challenges, learning, and this is why the question is putting the cart before the horse.

    Now, this is why all those warnings and hype about "idolatory" because you have to worship the One, who is the Self of All, represents the Whole, and not a part of the Whole or someone at odds with the Whole (idolatory by definition). Be it as "another" at first, because the poor little self IS another, other than the Self, until the ego is shed and oneness is attained.

    Walk With Mukunda
     
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  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    ahmi yat ahmi


    “We are the mirror, as well as the face in it.
    We are tasting the taste of eternity this minute.
    We are pain and what cures pain.
    We are the sweet cold water and the jar that pours.
    Soul of the world, no life, nor world remain,
    no beautiful women and men longing.
    Only this ancient love circling the holy black stone of nothing.
    Where the lover is the loved, the horizon and everything within it.”


    ― Rumi
     
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  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i can change, relate


    the tao that can be named is not the true and enduring tao.





    1Cor 13:12-1Cor 13:13 KJV For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.






    Proverbs 10:12
    Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
     
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  9. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    In your opinion.....can there be different Self’s from a different Whole, from a different One, a different Source, not part of the All, not One with everything you mentioned?
     
  10. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    In my opinion, experience and understanding, No. There may be different ways in which people may experience the True One Self , which, on a secondary level of subtle manifestation, some call God, YHWH , some others call Ishwar, Allah etc.

    Hinduism (VedAnta part) states that this original Source of everything lives very subtly within every being, precisely because it is the original cause, hence it is bound to pervade the effect. Just as milk pervades butter subtly and clay (source and cause) pervades the clay-pot (effect). This pervading Source thus becomes everyone's True Self with a capital S , and not the body-mind-ego flawed self with a small s (althoiugh by-product of the same Source/Self). The small self is unique to each individual, prone to errors etc., but Inner Self is the same.

    It further says this Self is crystal clear and very pure , without any add-on s and qualifiers.

    Thus, realizing the True One Self (same for all) is essentially knowledge of the Ultimate Source. We are not talking of a fixed form here.
    It is the singular Consciousness and the ultimate primary Source of everything that we call Brahman' , which is everyone's Self

    Self is universal and pure without qualifiers.
    The challenge is when a person mistakenly thinks a flavour-manifestation of the Self as the Self and therefore thinks "My Self is blue yours is green and her's is pink." but actually the Self is none of these. It is colourless ... If you understand the anology.
     
    #10 ameyAtmA, Jul 24, 2019
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  11. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    I understand.

    So there could not be multiple Sources?

    Or there couldn’t be one Self realizing that they are not One with other Self’s? Like a Self that is the polar opposite in nature as another Self but they’ve both realized True Self yet have opposing aim and intent.

    Because if it were the primary Source of everything, then it would be the Source of all flawed ego’s with all of those add-ons and qualifiers, including all of the things and Beings that are trying to prevent selfs from reaching Self-realization. Yet all of the things and Beings would only know how to try and prevent self’s from reaching Self-realization if they knew what that Source and Self was to begin with.

    Could flawed ego’s have come from another Source?
     
    #11 Road Less Traveled, Jul 24, 2019
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  12. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    If there are multiple Sources, they are not the ultimate cause, and can be traced back to an ultimate ultimate original cause.

    UltimateSource.png

    If they have different projects that compliment each other (such as creation, sustenance, dissolution) they are One in Spirt.
    If they are polar opposites, and have opposite aim and intent (for ex. one causes harm another good -- simplified), they are individuals and have not realized the Self , although both are products (effect) of the Ultimate Self. I know we are talking in very simplistic terms, but basically, One in Spirit with the Ultimate Source = Self-Realization.

    Remember the Self does not have qualifiers and activity. The polar opposites are beings with attributes, qualifiers and adjectives (A is orange, B is violet). Even in case of concepts or energies, if not beings, they are all products of the ultimate source, but not the source. Good bad and ugly are all by-products. Not colourless.

    Mathematically: The singular Source pervades the Universe, so everything is its Own. How can the Ultimate Source harm Itself? or cause Itself utimate harm? Therefore, any entity that wants to cause harm or discontent, cannot be the Original Source, but is nevertheless a product (effect) of the same one Source.

    Precisely! It IS. We have to accept that it is by itself utterly Pure, but being the Ultimate Source of All, the flaws and all are Nth degree auto-manipulation results of the Source. Like you take clay, then make a pot, a jar , and the jar cracks. Will you deny that the clay was the source? Just because the jar broke? The gravity and all forces that caused the jar to break also came from the Source.

    A secondary Source. Mother Nature. She is pure, and an aspect Of the Source, but has properties of goodness:: passion::ignorance in various proportions. (sattva::raja::tama). So, in the effect, the products , the resulting universe, it is all about the variations in these proportions.

    In order to transcend nature, we try to raise levels of goodness, and minimize levels of darkness-ignorance.
     
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  13. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    References and recommendations: 1. Bhagavad Geeta , 2. Major Upanishads (Kena, IshavAsya, PrashNa, MunDak, ChhAndogya, Shwetasvatara, BRhadAraNyaka, MAnDukya, Aitareya ...)
     
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  14. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Why would or does their have to be a ‘singular’ Source?

    Why not raise levels of darkness and ignorance and minimize levels of goodness since it’s from the same Source anyhow? Either way you’d be doing the Sources work. Transcending goodness into darkness-ignorance would be of the same Source anyhow.

    If you were this Source and were pure goodness for example... would you want Self’s teaching that pure darkness and ignorance came from you? Or would you be fine with stating that this singular Source is both pure goodness/awareness and pure darkness/ignorance simultaneously?

    Then a question would be how or why can a singular Source of pure Love, or pure Goodness, or pure awareness possibly give birth to pure Hate, or pure Evil, or Pure ignorance?
     
    #14 Road Less Traveled, Jul 24, 2019
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  15. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    What if they are not bi-product of that Source but are a True realized Self from an entirely separate Source? Why would one Self who would be pure goodness want to associate as being One with an ‘enlightened pure malicious entity?’
     
  16. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Mathematically, if there is a green and a brown, the difference is due to attributes green and brown. Hence, we have to see what lies underneath and causes the attributes to exist.
    The ultimate Substratum of existence is Pure, Vast, Infinite, and beyond time-space.
    If you are worried "what if that the Ultimate Substratum of Existence as defined here is not the Person called God or YHWH or Allah or Ishwar?" , then in my humble opinion, the same Original substratum is personifying Itself, and appearing as God, and also as Allah. It will not change the substratum , can it? It may be hard to accept that the same substratum is appearing to the Muslims as Allah and to a Jew as YHWH, to the VaishNav-Hindu as NArAyaN (VishNu)...

    I recommend reading the references I mentioned, because otherwise we could be here all day all week talking.


    Good question. The reason is, Sattva i.e. Goodness, is the gateway to transcendence. Not darkness.

    Neither. The Source transcends all 3 qualities -
    (i) Goodness
    (ii) Passion
    (iii) Ignorance-darkness.

    Yet, these 3 are properties of Its nature, although never ever touch the Ultimate Source.

    Now, the closer an effect is to the cause, the Purer it is. This way, Vishuddha-Sattva i.e. Pure Goodness, is the first subtle effect of the transcendental Source of Everything (which has NO qualities, NO attributes, is transparent, colorless, sheer, crystal clear.)

    If you consider mathematical permutations and combinations as things set into motion to weave the Universe -- there are cause-effect chains, primary, secondary, tertiary...... Nth cycle, and sheer to causal to subtle to gross to grosser -- that is how creation begins.

    and behold the beauty of Brahman' (Sanskrit word for the Source) -- it is like the spider that weaves the net from itself.

    If you are interested in a dettached perspective, without getting involved, the creation is explained in detail in some texts - primary (sarga) , secondary (visarga) and levels of phenomena before quantum particles form.
     
    #16 ameyAtmA, Jul 24, 2019
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  17. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Wrong premise, fundamental or definition. A Malicious entity cannot be enlightened! It is acting from the platform of its ego and vice, a shrinking wicked heart. Please put aside your idea of Satan or Devil as an all-powerful entity. It cannot be that powerful.

    Good conquers evil, ultimately. en-lightened is all about Light, not darkness.
    Self-Realized = Found the Self. The bad stuff is not the Self, and again, the gateway to transcendence is pure goodness.

    Finally, we cannot attach peoples' behaviors to the Source or even immediate aspects of it. We cannot conclude about the Source and its immediate subtle personifications based on what people do or did historically.

    I would also like to mention that it is really my opinion that the Source is appearing as God/YHWH/Yehovah and although I am Hindu, with a Hindu understanding, and love NArAyaN as Shri KRshNa very much, I have faith in Jesus and He has appeared twice in my life to give blessings.
    I do not think Allah is a "bad god" or "makes people kill others" I think it is the same beautiful Source of all. People could not understand context of times. Why attach that to the Source?

    I hope my posts do not appear to be presumptuous, now that I have mentioned my personal take on this.
     
    #17 ameyAtmA, Jul 24, 2019
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  18. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Can read just about every text and see similarities, same source attributes and different source attributes and the literal name is irrelevant yet the name(nature/character/attributes) are the same because most of them that weren’t modified or altered are all referring to writings/transmutations/and experiences within.

    One can also say that there is no Singular Ultimate Source of All yet Multiple Sources that have differing properties and natures, and that anything vile does not come from goodness and anything good does not come anything vile. Also one can say that the 2 do not need each other to exist, and never did. They may exist together, but if a self were to transmute into a Self, they’d be existing just fine without the vile, or another Self existing just fine without the good. Nor would they have to call each other One with another.

    These can be considered and also come from Multiple Sources. One Source could have also never created anything or set anything in motion, while another Source did.

    I don’t see a lot of beauty that most see. I used to see the beauty that they see.
     
  19. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Who says? Enlightened could be about being made aware or being aware. There are plenty of very fully aware beings that have malicious intent. They’d be enlightened enough to put on an act of being dumb and stupid or as very good and know all about how to prevent a self from finding Self.

    That is an assumption. Besides, Satan has a lot of similarities to meaning ‘Truth.’

    We have been programmed since birth that the good guys always win. I don’t see that in this creation. Evil conquers good too. And how would you know that what you think is good, is really evil and vice versa?

    I understand that may be the case for you and I, and many or most others....transcending matter and vile nature into goodness. Yet for another, they are trying to prevent this, and being their True Self in the process and knowing all about how to.
     
    #19 Road Less Traveled, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  20. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA SacchidAnanda
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    Agreed :)

    The Source is not a person. Source personifies.
    There are malicious entities, yes. They belong to the asur (demon) bucket, not the sur - God and godly bucket. Humans are a mixed bucket.

    The solution is to trust the equipment we have fortunately inherited - the inner instrument (antahkaraN) , the spiritual heart. Follow our heart and sharpen our ability to be a fair judge of right and wrong. This is an aspect of the intellect, and called sad-vivek in saMskrit (ability to discriminate right and good from wrong).

    This is why we are asked to contemplate, meditate, pray. Put our trust in the Divine. The Divine will and does reciprocate, holds out the hand. No point in pretending to be helpless ("what if my good is your evil" etc.). All the help is there at our disposal.

    There is a saying: You take one step towards VishNu, He will take 100 steps towards you (or thousand).
     
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