Seed of Abraham.

[John D. Brey]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28-29.
​

According to St. Paul, to be members of Christ's body is to be "seed of Abraham." Before his name was changed from "Abram" to "Abraham," Abram fathered seed through Hagar. After his name was changed to "Abraham" he fathered seed through Sarah. So technically speaking there are at least two patrilineal lines drawn from Abraham's seed.

The Abrahamic-line drawn through Hagar produced the Arabs who are considered Gentiles, while his line through Sarah produced Jews who are the only people not reckoned Gentiles. But Paul speaks of a third "seed of Abraham" who are neither Jews nor Arabs?



John

 

[Brickjectivity]

Its about freedom. It also does not mention Arabs.

 

[Kemosloby]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28-29.
​

According to St. Paul, to be members of Christ's body is to be "seed of Abraham." Before his name was changed from "Abram" to "Abraham," Abram fathered seed through Hagar. After his name was changed to "Abraham" he fathered seed through Sarah. So technically speaking there are at least two patrilineal lines drawn from Abraham's seed.

The Abrahamic-line drawn through Hagar produced the Arabs who are considered Gentiles, while his line through Sarah produced Jews who are the only people not reckoned Gentiles. But Paul speaks of a third "seed of Abraham" who are neither Jews nor Arabs?



John

The Apostles also say the promise was made to Abraham and his seed, meaning one man, Christ, since it says seed and not seeds. Meaning you become heirs through Christ, not by blood ancestry.

Gal 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Interesting that Abrahams name was Abram when he had a son by Hagar. That could clear up any confusion about which line Christ would come from, or some other purpose. Abraham calls Isaac his only son when he almost sacrifices Isaac, yet he had another son as Abram. And Christ was called Gods only begotten son, though there are other "sons of God". There's something there, not sure what though.

 

[omega2xx]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28-29.
​

According to St. Paul, to be members of Christ's body is to be "seed of Abraham." Before his name was changed from "Abram" to "Abraham," Abram fathered seed through Hagar. After his name was changed to "Abraham" he fathered seed through Sarah. So technically speaking there are at least two patrilineal lines drawn from Abraham's seed.

The Abrahamic-line drawn through Hagar produced the Arabs who are considered Gentiles, while his line through Sarah produced Jews who are the only people not reckoned Gentiles. But Paul speaks of a third "seed of Abraham" who are neither Jews nor Arabs?

John

There are s few more verse you need to throw into the baatter to make the cake taste right.

Gal 3:16 - Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his see. He doe snot say, and to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one, and to your seed, that is Christ.

Rom 3:11 - and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe.

Rom 2:28-29- Basically these verses tell us a Jew is not who is a Jew outwardly but he is a Jew who is one inwardly.

Gal 3:29 - And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Now put that in a pan and bake it at 400degrees for 10 minuets. Then take it out and spread the icing of the source principle on it. The source principle says all living things are the product of their source.

This tell us that Jesus Christ is the seed from which all Christians are born again. If you understand the allegory, Gal 4:21-31, it teaches that Christians have been born again supernaturally, as Isaac was and we are not under the law. We are children of the free woman, not the slave woman.

Then those who think we can lose our salvation need one more seed verse---You have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is through the living and enduring word of God. I Pet 1:23

If someone doesn't understand why that verse teaches eternal security, get a good dictionary and look up imperishable.

 

[John D. Brey]

Its about freedom. It also does not mention Arabs.

. . . It speaks of Abraham's seed, which is both Jews and Arabs. I don't know what you mean about "freedom."


John

 

[John D. Brey]

This tell us that Jesus Christ is the seed from which all Christians are born again. If you understand the allegory, Gal 4:21-31, it teaches that Christians have been born again supernaturally, as Isaac was and we are not under the law. We are children of the free woman, not the slave woman.

. . . Ok. Good stuff. But in the allegory Hagar is the slave-mother and Sarah is the free-mother. Who's the free-mother in truth (as opposed to allegory)? ------ That's the question this thread is interested in.

Hagar (the slave-mother) births Arabs/Gentiles. Sarah (the free-mother) births Jews/non-Gentiles. Who's the mother who births neither?



John

 

[John D. Brey]

The Apostles also say the promise was made to Abraham and his seed, meaning one man, Christ, since it says seed and not seeds. Meaning you become heirs through Christ, not by blood ancestry.

Gal 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Interesting that Abrahams name was Abram when he had a son by Hagar. That could clear up any confusion about which line Christ would come from, or some other purpose. Abraham calls Isaac his only son when he almost sacrifices Isaac, yet he had another son as Abram. And Christ was called Gods only begotten son, though there are other "sons of God". There's something there, not sure what though.

Jesus is born in Abraham's line through Sarah. So how is he not a Jew if Isaac and Jacob are Jews? Abraham fathers a line of Gentiles through Ishmael, and Jews through Isaac. It's through Isaac's seed that Jesus comes. And yet Paul is speaking of being neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Jew nor Arab? . . . And he's calling this newfangled line "seed of Abraham"?


John

 

[omega2xx]

. . . Ok. Good stuff. But in the allegory Hagar is the slave-mother and Sarah is the free-mother. Who's the free-mother in truth (as opposed to allegory)? ------ That's the question this thread is interested in.

Hagar (the slave-mother) births Arabs/Gentiles. Sarah (the free-mother) births Jews/non-Gentiles. Who's the mother who births neither?



John

Hagar represents those born naturally. They are under the law until they are born again. IMO, Hagar represents the law and and Sarah, the free-mother, represents grace.

 

[Kemosloby]

Jesus is born in Abraham's line through Sarah. So how is he not a Jew if Isaac and Jacob are Jews? Abraham fathers a line of Gentiles through Ishmael, and Jews through Isaac. It's through Isaac's seed that Jesus comes. And yet Paul is speaking of being neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Jew nor Arab? . . . And he's calling this newfangled line "seed of Abraham"?


John

Like Jesus is the "seed of Abraham" and His church is the "body of Christ", so if you belong to the body of Christ you belong to the seed of Abraham. Keeping in mind that the "Lord" of the Jews was also Christ preincarnate so those Baptized into Moses were also baptized into Christ.

Remember they said "we are the seed of Abraham" and Jesus told them "I can raise up stones to the seed of Abraham", like Jesus was saying, no you're not, whoever I say is the seed of Abraham is the seed of Abraham.

 

[Kemosloby]

Hagar represents those born naturally. They are under the law until they are born again. IMO, Hagar represents the law and and Sarah, the free-mother, represents grace.

Close. Ishmael the son of hagar came about naturally, but Isaac was born by miracle because Sarah was 90 years old. The law doesn't even come into play yet since there was no law given before Moses.

 

[John D. Brey]

Hagar represents those born naturally. They are under the law until they are born again. IMO, Hagar represents the law and and Sarah, the free-mother, represents grace.

. . . Ok. I don't have a problem with that. But Hagar is a natural born mother who receives Abram's seed to produce Gentiles. And Sarah is a natural born mother who receives Abraham's seed to produce Jews.

Who's the mother who receives Abraham's seed to produce neither Gentile nor Jew? And what is her relationship to Abraham such that her offspring are born of Abraham's seed?


John

 

[John D. Brey]

Like Jesus is the "seed of Abraham" and His church is the "body of Christ", so if you belong to the body of Christ you belong to the seed of Abraham. Keeping in mind that the "Lord" of the Jews was also Christ preincarnate so those Baptized into Moses were also baptized into Christ.
.

As "seed of Abraham" through Sarah Jesus would seem to be Jewish rather than Gentile. And yet if Jesus is Jewish, how does he produce offspring, through his Abrahamic-line (Jewish) who not only aren't Jewish, but neither are they Gentile?

In the quotation in the seeder message Paul seems to imply that those who are in Christ are not only in the line of Abraham, through him (Jesus), i.e., "seed of Abraham," but that they're neither Jewish nor Gentile? There appears to be a logical problem or something missing?



John

 

[Kemosloby]

As "seed of Abraham" through Sarah Jesus would seem to be Jewish rather than Gentile. And yet if Jesus is Jewish, how does he produce offspring, through his Abrahamic-line (Jewish) who not only aren't Jewish, but neither are the Gentile?

In the quotation in the seeder message Paul seems to imply that those who are in Christ are not only in the line of Abraham, through him (Jesus), i.e., "seed of Abraham," but that they're neither Jewish nor Gentile.



John

He's just saying it's everybody lumped together, The promise said he would be a "blessing to all nations", and once in Christ everyone is equal i.e there is no Jew or Gentile. You are all one. But there were Jews and Gentiles in a more literal sense, and they struggled at becoming one.

 

[omega2xx]

Close. Ishmael the son of hagar came about naturally, but Isaac was born by miracle because Sarah was 90 years old. The law doesn't even come into play yet since there was no law given before Moses.

Not only that Sarah was barren.

The law comes into play through Hagar, she was a slave and she ore children who were slaves to the law. The allegory says these 2 women 2 covenants ---Law and grace. Hagar IS Mount Sinai and we know happened there.

 

[omega2xx]

. . . Ok. I don't have a problem with that. But Hagar is a natural born mother who receives Abram's seed to produce Gentiles. And Sarah is a natural born mother who receives Abraham's seed to produce Jews.

Who's the mother who receives Abraham's seed to produce neither Gentile nor Jew? And what is her relationship to Abraham such that her offspring are born of Abraham's seed?


John

The allegory takes the literal away. Basically it is teaching that those who are born naturally, are slaves to the law---Hagar IS Mt. Sinai. Those born supernaturally are under grace.

 

[Kemosloby]

Not only that Sarah was barren.

The law comes into play through Hagar, she was a slave and she ore children who were slaves to the law. The allegory says these 2 women 2 covenants ---Law and grace. Hagar IS Mount Sinai and we know happened there.

No, the law came through Moses. They Jews were slaves to the law because they had people ruling over them like parents or guardians. In other words the scribes, pharisees and priests acted as their parents or guardians ruling over them.

Gal 4:2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.

Then when Christ came was the time set by the Father, when Christ replaced the "parents or guardians" and set them free. Becoming high priest himself. , Like "call no man father upon the earth, One is your father, Christ who is in heaven"

 

[Kemosloby]

. . . It seems like you should say there will be both Jew and Gentile in Christ rather than neither? In other words, if Jesus is going to obliterate such distinctions, then why must he come through Abraham, and why must Paul call us "seed of Abraham?"

Paul says we are the circumcision. He doesn't appear to be obliterating the sign of circumcision so much as saying those who are "seed of Christ" are the circumcision. So what is the difference between Isaac as the circumcision, and Paul, or you or me, as the circumcision?

Is the Church the obliteration of Jew and Gentile, and thus circumcision, or it the Church a combination of Jew and Gentile?



John

Ideologically the church did away with Jew, Gentile and circumcision, and there is just Christ and Christians. There are two ways they speak of the circumcision, circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the heart. They did away with the outward circumcision of the flesh since the circumcision of the heart is what is important. Pretty heady stuff, but it has to do with the difference between following the letter of the law by written code or following the spirit of the law. The latter, the spirit of the law is what is acceptable to God.

Gal 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

... The law doesn't even come into play yet since there was no law given before Moses.

Wrong.

 

[Kemosloby]

Wrong.

How so?

Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.…

 

[omega2xx]

No, the law came through Moses. They Jews were slaves to the law because they had people ruling over them like parents or guardians. In other words the scribes, pharisees and priests acted as their parents or guardians ruling over them.

Gal 4:2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.

Then when Christ came was the time set by the Father, when Christ replaced the "parents or guardians" and set them free. Becoming high priest himself. , Like "call no man father upon the earth, One is your father, Christ who is in heaven"

Right, the law came through Moses, but Hagar's children represent those born slaves to the law. Everyone is born a slave to the law, until the times set by our Father and we are born again.

The law became our tutor to lead us to Christ(Gal 3:24). The word for "tutor" in that verse is actually pedagogue. The pedagogue did not teach, he only watched over the child's behavior. The child was put under the care of the pedagogue until they reached an age determined by the father.

So the law watched over our behavior until we became of age.

3:25 – When faith comes in, the responsibility of the law is removed.
The adult does voluntarily what he formally did in fear of the pedagogue, the law.

Keep in mind that the 2 women represent 2 covenants(Ga; 4:24)---law and grace. Judaism is a legalistic religion, but when our time comes we must do what Gal 3:30 says---cast out the woman and her son, the law with its many made rules, for salvation.

My bottom line is that we are born physically, we are slaves to the law for our salvation. . When we are born again, the law is no longer our means of salvation. We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free woman---...therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery(the law)