Seed of Abraham.

[Kemosloby]

Right, the law came through Moses, but Hagar's children represent those born slaves to the law. Everyone is born a slave to the law, until the times set by our Father and we are born again.

The law became our tutor to lead us to Christ(Gal 3:24). The word for "tutor" in that verse is actually pedagogue. The pedagogue did not teach, he only watched over the child's behavior. The child was put under the care of the pedagogue until they reached an age determined by the father.

So the law watched over our behavior until we became of age.

3:25 – When faith comes in, the responsibility of the law is removed.
The adult does voluntarily what he formally did in fear of the pedagogue, the law.

Keep in mind that the 2 women represent 2 covenants(Ga; 4:24)---law and grace. Judaism is a legalistic religion, but when our time comes we must do what Gal 3:30 says---cast out the woman and her son, the law with its many made rules, for salvation.

My bottom line is that we are born physically, we are slaves to the law for our salvation. . When we are born again, the law is no longer our means of salvation. We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free woman---...therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery(the law)

I think you've got it all wrong, but there's no point in endless dispute. The metaphor of the bondwoman and her son, compared to the freewoman and her son, eludes to Jesus. Through Isaac Jesus came and "set you free" from the law, so that you no longer follow the law by a written code, but in a new way "by the spirit"

 

[omega2xx]

I think you've got it all wrong, but there's no point in endless dispute. The metaphor of the bondwoman and her son, compared to the freewoman and her son, eludes to Jesus. Through Isaac Jesus came and "set you free" from the law, so that you no longer follow the law by a written code, but in a new way "by the spirit"

You are close, but you are right, there is no point in continuing to discuss our differences.

 

[Kemosloby]

You are close, but you are right, there is no point in continuing to discuss our differences.

Yeah, well think of it this way. If the seed of Abraham means Jesus, the Son of Sarah can also mean Jesus, in the same manner.

 

[omega2xx]

Yeah, well think of it this way. If the seed of Abraham means Jesus, the Son of Sarah can also mean Jesus, in the same manner.

Then who is the son of Hagar?

 

[Kemosloby]

Then who is the son of Hagar?

People born the natural way, like you and me. Or the priests Jesus replaces or the money changers he kicked out of the temple. Jesus our Father and authority in heaven replaced the authority men "born the natural way' had previously been given.

Except that if you are Christs you are Abraham's seed, and in the same manner Son of Sarah.

 

[omega2xx]

People born the natural way, like you and me.

You should have stopped there. Ishmael represents the natural man, the one born naturally, the non-Christian.

Or the priests Jesus replaces or the money changers he kicked out of the temple.

Only indirectly, only because they were non-Christians.

Jesus our Father and authority in heaven replaced the authority men "born the natural way' had previously been given.

God is our Father, not Jesus. Jesus is our brother.

Except that if you are Christs you are Abraham's seed, and in the same manner Son of Sarah.

I am Sarah's son because i was born supernaturally. That makes me free of the law as the means of salvation. That is the essence of the allegory.

 

[Kemosloby]

You should have stopped there. Ishmael represents the natural man, the one born naturally, the non-Christian.



Only indirectly, only because they were non-Christians.



God is our Father, not Jesus. Jesus is our brother.



I am Sarah's son because i was born supernaturally. That makes me free of the law as the means of salvation. That is the essence of the allegory.

You are so wrong. "Christ is the head of every man"

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Hagar (the slave-mother) births Arabs/Gentiles. Sarah (the free-mother) births Jews/non-Gentiles. Who's the mother who births neither?

Maybe Abe was less than honest with either lover?

Not only that Sarah was barren.

Ok, but before Abe gets Hagar in bed, how do we know it's Sarah who's barren and not Abe just shooting blanks?

There has to be someone else to confirm that Abe's reproductive skills worked, yes?

No, the law came through Moses. They Jews were slaves to the law because they had people ruling over them like parents or guardians. In other words the scribes, pharisees and priests acted as their parents or guardians ruling over them.

How is this different from needing Christian clergy? How is this different from suggesting one need go to some church? Are the "spiritual, not religious" people okay? After all, they are really the only ones free from any "guardian/parent" relationship, right?

God is our Father, not Jesus. Jesus is our brother.

Indeed.

You are so wrong. "Christ is the head of every man"

Ah, that's cool, then. I'm a woman.

 

[Kemosloby]

You should have stopped there. Ishmael represents the natural man, the one born naturally, the non-Christian.



Only indirectly, only because they were non-Christians.



God is our Father, not Jesus. Jesus is our brother.



I am Sarah's son because i was born supernaturally. That makes me free of the law as the means of salvation. That is the essence of the allegory.

You're right that God is our Father, but Jesus is our Lord. Jesus is the one who was born supernaturally and is the Son of Sarah. Where does that leave us? We receive "sonship" by adoption through Christ. which is also an unnatural process. We were all born in the natural way, but became sons in an unnatural way. I don't know, I guess that makes Jesus "Big Brother".

 

[omega2xx]

You are so wrong. "Christ is the head of every man"

Our FATHER in heaven...

Jas 1:17 - Every good and perfect gift...coming down from the FATHER OF LIGHTS...

Jesus is the Light of the world; Jesus is God's son.

Christians are the light of the world(Mt 5:14); we are SONS of God(Gal 3:26)

Therefore He had to be made like His brethren---Heb 2:17

 

[omega2xx]

Maybe Abe was less than honest with either lover?

Maybe you are just blowing smoke. Correction. You are just blowing smoke

Ok, but before Abe gets Hagar in bed, how do we know it's Sarah who's barren and not Abe just shooting blanks?

Do you really not know what "barren" means

There has to be someone else to confirm that Abe's reproductive skills worked, yes?

Ishmael confirmed the did work.

How is this different from needing Christian clergy? How is this different from suggesting one need go to some church? Are the "spiritual, not religious" people okay? After all, they are really the only ones free from any "guardian/parent" relationship, right?

How is the same? Who has suggested one needs to go to church? That depends on what your religion teaches. The fact that something is a religion does not make it right.

Ah, that's cool, then. I'm a woman.

You will not smile at the rest of that verse---...the man is the head of woman...

 

[omega2xx]

You're right that God is our Father, but Jesus is our Lord. Jesus is the one who was born supernaturally and is the Son of Sarah. Where does that leave us? We receive "sonship" by adoption through Christ. which is also an unnatural process. We were all born in the natural way, but became sons in an unnatural way. I don't know, I guess that makes Jesus "Big Brother".

Yes Jesus is our brother.

 

[Kemosloby]

Our FATHER in heaven...

Jas 1:17 - Every good and perfect gift...coming down from the FATHER OF LIGHTS...

Jesus is the Light of the world; Jesus is God's son.

Christians are the light of the world(Mt 5:14); we are SONS of God(Gal 3:26)

Therefore He had to be made like His brethren---Heb 2:17

To some degree. Ok lets rehash this. God the Father is the Father, Jesus is the Lord. Jesus became God's Son when he received the Holy Spirit. But for the meaning of prophecy fulfillment, Jesus was the Son of Sarah because of his bloodline and miraculous birth. So you become one with Jesus by receiving the Holy Spirit which makes you a son in an unatural way and retroactively a son of Sarah, seed of Abraham and heirs to the promise. Light of the world if you follow in Jesus footsteps doing good deeds. Then receive the greater reward on the judgement day.

Romans 8:23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.

Though I don't believe I have the Holy Spirit in me, for lack of following in Jesus footsteps and doing good deeds.

 

[Sleeppy]

No one remembers what John the Baptist said on this matter?

 

[omega2xx]

To some degree. Ok lets rehash this. God the Father is the Father, Jesus is the Lord. Jesus became God's Son when he received the Holy Spirit. But for the meaning of prophecy fulfillment, Jesus was the Son of Sarah because of his bloodline and miraculous birth. So you become one with Jesus by receiving the Holy Spirit which makes you a son in an unatural way and retroactively a son of Sarah, seed of Abraham and heirs to the promise. Light of the world if you follow in Jesus footsteps doing good deeds. Then receive the greater reward on the judgement day.

Romans 8:23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.

Though I don't believe I have the Holy Spirit in me, for lack of following in Jesus footsteps and doing good deeds.

Even thought there is no chance of me being right, let me correct you on some things.

--Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit. Both are part of the God head.

--you are trying to make the allegory literal. It is not by definition. An allegory is based on a literal event but it teaches a spiritual truth.

--If you believe the gospel of your salvation, and I believe you do, you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit(Eph 1:13) until Jesus returns to redeem you(Eph 4:30).

--I am the light of the world even if I never do any good deeds. That verse does not put any requirement on me.

If I have saving faith, I will do good deeds. That is one evidence of my salvation.

 

[Kemosloby]

Even thought there is no chance of me being right, let me correct you on some things.

--Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit. Both are part of the God head.

--you are trying to make the allegory literal. It is not by definition. An allegory is based on a literal event but it teaches a spiritual truth.

--If you believe the gospel of your salvation, and I believe you do, you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit(Eph 1:13) until Jesus returns to redeem you(Eph 4:30).

--I am the light of the world even if I never do any good deeds. That verse does not put any requirement on me.

If I have saving faith, I will do good deeds. That is one evidence of my salvation.

Jesus did receive the Holy Spirit, and afterwards God said "You are my beloved Son"

The Baptism of Jesus Luke 3-32
When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Jesus the Lamb of God John 1-31
…I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.” Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’…

You're not the light of the world if you don't let your light shine. If you don't do anything good you keep your light covered. That line follows "if salt loses its saltiness it is discarded"

 

[omega2xx]

Jesus did receive the Holy Spirit, and afterwards God said "You are my beloved Son"

The Baptism of Jesus Luke 3-32
When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Jesus the Lamb of God John 1-31
…I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.” Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’…

You're not the light of the world if you don't let your light shine. If you don't do anything good you keep your light covered. That line follows "if salt loses its saltiness it is discarded"

The dove only identified Jesus as the Messiah.

No works, no salvation.

 

[Kemosloby]

The dove only identified Jesus as the Messiah.

No works, no salvation.

Perhaps, but being baptized with the Holy Spirit is how people are born of the spirit, and become one with Christ and heirs to the promise. As far as a supernatural birth goes for you, that's it if you do have it. Jesus fullfilled the prophecy of Sarah Son born in the unnatural way, born of a virgin. Jesus is the Lord. in some sense you might be brothers by the holy spirit, but Jesus the Lord and you are not.

 

[omega2xx]

Perhaps, but being baptized with the Holy Spirit is how people are born of the spirit, and become one with Christ and heirs to the promise. As far as a supernatural birth goes for you, that's it if you do have it. Jesus fullfilled the prophecy of Sarah Son born in the unnatural way, born of a virgin. Jesus is the Lord. in some sense you might be brothers by the holy spirit, but Jesus the Lord and you are not.

I have not claimed to be the Lord.

 

[Kemosloby]

I have not claimed to be the Lord.

You pretty much did when as a question of authority you said, you and Jesus are brothers.