Since the mods have removed posts from a forum that was not for debate, I would like to bring the conversation to this forum for further discussion. It's an important topic.
The thread was about the celebration of Christmas but became much broader.....we were comparing the practices of the Catholic church with original Christianity and asking some serious questions about the differences.
Lets use scripture to back up what we say.
@pcarl
That still does not address the question. Where does Jesus suggest that part of a Christian's duty is to build institutions of higher learning or places where people can receive medical attention that they have to pay for? Was that the job of the church? Where does Jesus even speak about a general charity for the whole population? In order for widows and their children to be "put on the list" for assistance, they first had to be practicing Christians.
"Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight." (1 Timothy 4:3-4)
So helping our own first was the recommendation. Those who had no family to help them were given what they needed. Charity is not just for hand-outs. There were responsibilities of others involved too.
The Christian congregation was the place where a Christian education was to take place. None of Jesus' 12 apostles were educated men by their day's standards. Do you know why?
Jesus and his apostles healed all who were brought to them as a foregleam of what was to come under the rule of God's Kingdom. They did not know what a hospital was. No one had to pay money to get well.
Again, why would building hospitals be the job of evangelists? Their job was to preach.
I hope you don't think that is a quote from Jesus. He most certainly used many words to teach his listeners important things. He trained his disciples to do the same. They were expected to walk the talk and so are we.
Can you tell me what "the gospel of Christ" actually is? How do Catholics spread the gospel compared to how Jesus and his disciples did?
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city." (Matthew 13:11-15)
No Catholic person (or any other denomination in Christendom) has ever called on me to offer me the Christian message. Yet Jesus said that the "good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" was to come. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
All of the first Christians expected that Jesus' rulership of this earth would come in their lifetime. But the present ruler had to be dealt with first. (1 John 5:19)
Jesus said in Matthew 24:36...."But as to that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the Son, but the Father alone."
That was whilst Jesus was a man on earth.....after his return to heaven he would have been given all the knowledge he needed to become the appointed King of God's Kingdom. His coronation was seen in a vision given to Daniel long before Jesus human birth. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Because the issues raised in Eden regarding God's Universal Sovereignty had to be settled once and for all, it was never going to be accomplished in a human timeframe. The gospels and other Bible books stress the imminence of Christ's return as judge and King. They looked forward to Christ's return to fix all of the world's problems. How depressing would it have been to know that it was still thousands of years away? God kept it right before them to keep their hope bright and their faith strong. They would have to endure so much. (Matthew 24:13)
Please tell me where I deliberately slandered anyone? I have told the truth and I have backed it up with scripture. The pictures I have used are from Catholic sources. I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people, so my knowledge is first hand.
Justification? Where will I find any Christians in the Bible collecting religious art works? Such art was not in existence in the early centuries because of God's law against making religious images. (Exodus 20:4-5) It was a trap to make an image because people wanted worship the thing as it elicited higher emotions that words could.
Religious art turned into images for worship. Statues are three dimensional images that dominate Catholic churches. The cross and crucifix are images.
Again....can you see Jesus in this picture?
God's law was not just forbidding to bow before an image....it was not to MAKE them. (Exodus 20:4-5)
Do you see obedience to God's command anywhere here?
Jesus' words were NOT to store up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19-21)
The Vatican has stored billions of dollars worth of art and other expensive treasures......so what is the excuse?
This is in 'scriptural debates' so please use scripture to back up your answers.
The thread was about the celebration of Christmas but became much broader.....we were comparing the practices of the Catholic church with original Christianity and asking some serious questions about the differences.
Lets use scripture to back up what we say.
@pcarl
pcarl said:Deeje said:
We have a world wide fund that is used to assist members of our brotherhood in whatever circumstances they may find themselves
We all contribute to that fund to take care of our own. And if we can assist those in our own congregations, we will do so..
Bully for you. The Church does not help Catholics only. One does not have to be Catholic to attend a Catholic university, or to receive treatment in a Catholic hospital, or to receive help from Catholic charities.
That still does not address the question. Where does Jesus suggest that part of a Christian's duty is to build institutions of higher learning or places where people can receive medical attention that they have to pay for? Was that the job of the church? Where does Jesus even speak about a general charity for the whole population? In order for widows and their children to be "put on the list" for assistance, they first had to be practicing Christians.
"Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight." (1 Timothy 4:3-4)
So helping our own first was the recommendation. Those who had no family to help them were given what they needed. Charity is not just for hand-outs. There were responsibilities of others involved too.
The Christian congregation was the place where a Christian education was to take place. None of Jesus' 12 apostles were educated men by their day's standards. Do you know why?
pcarl said:Deeje said:
Jesus didn't tell us to build hospitals....
Jesus expected the apocalypse possibly within his lifetime. These were no concern of His.
Jesus and his apostles healed all who were brought to them as a foregleam of what was to come under the rule of God's Kingdom. They did not know what a hospital was. No one had to pay money to get well.
Again, why would building hospitals be the job of evangelists? Their job was to preach.
pcarl said:A Christian is one who spreads the gospel of Christ, and 'when necessary uses words.'Deeje said:It isn't what you say that makes you a Christian....it's what you "do" and more importantly, "why" you do it.
I hope you don't think that is a quote from Jesus. He most certainly used many words to teach his listeners important things. He trained his disciples to do the same. They were expected to walk the talk and so are we.
Can you tell me what "the gospel of Christ" actually is? How do Catholics spread the gospel compared to how Jesus and his disciples did?
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city." (Matthew 13:11-15)
No Catholic person (or any other denomination in Christendom) has ever called on me to offer me the Christian message. Yet Jesus said that the "good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" was to come. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
All of the first Christians expected that Jesus' rulership of this earth would come in their lifetime. But the present ruler had to be dealt with first. (1 John 5:19)
Jesus said in Matthew 24:36...."But as to that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the Son, but the Father alone."
That was whilst Jesus was a man on earth.....after his return to heaven he would have been given all the knowledge he needed to become the appointed King of God's Kingdom. His coronation was seen in a vision given to Daniel long before Jesus human birth. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Because the issues raised in Eden regarding God's Universal Sovereignty had to be settled once and for all, it was never going to be accomplished in a human timeframe. The gospels and other Bible books stress the imminence of Christ's return as judge and King. They looked forward to Christ's return to fix all of the world's problems. How depressing would it have been to know that it was still thousands of years away? God kept it right before them to keep their hope bright and their faith strong. They would have to endure so much. (Matthew 24:13)
pcarl said:Deeje said:Is it 'judging'' to tell the truth?
Deliberate slander is not truth, its gossip, false witness.
Please tell me where I deliberately slandered anyone? I have told the truth and I have backed it up with scripture. The pictures I have used are from Catholic sources. I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people, so my knowledge is first hand.
pcarl said:Deeje said:If the church does what you say, then how come there is all that wealth tied up in art.
The art depicts Scripture. An illiterate person may know the story of creation thru the Resurrection simply by the art. The 'heart of the Church' is with its Founder.
Justification? Where will I find any Christians in the Bible collecting religious art works? Such art was not in existence in the early centuries because of God's law against making religious images. (Exodus 20:4-5) It was a trap to make an image because people wanted worship the thing as it elicited higher emotions that words could.
Religious art turned into images for worship. Statues are three dimensional images that dominate Catholic churches. The cross and crucifix are images.
Again....can you see Jesus in this picture?
God's law was not just forbidding to bow before an image....it was not to MAKE them. (Exodus 20:4-5)
Do you see obedience to God's command anywhere here?
Jesus' words were NOT to store up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19-21)
The Vatican has stored billions of dollars worth of art and other expensive treasures......so what is the excuse?
This is in 'scriptural debates' so please use scripture to back up your answers.