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Featured Scripturally, What Does a Christian Need to do...or Not do?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since the mods have removed posts from a forum that was not for debate, I would like to bring the conversation to this forum for further discussion. It's an important topic.

    The thread was about the celebration of Christmas but became much broader.....we were comparing the practices of the Catholic church with original Christianity and asking some serious questions about the differences.

    Lets use scripture to back up what we say.

    @pcarl

    That still does not address the question. Where does Jesus suggest that part of a Christian's duty is to build institutions of higher learning or places where people can receive medical attention that they have to pay for? Was that the job of the church? Where does Jesus even speak about a general charity for the whole population? In order for widows and their children to be "put on the list" for assistance, they first had to be practicing Christians.

    "Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight." (1 Timothy 4:3-4)

    So helping our own first was the recommendation. Those who had no family to help them were given what they needed. Charity is not just for hand-outs. There were responsibilities of others involved too.

    The Christian congregation was the place where a Christian education was to take place. None of Jesus' 12 apostles were educated men by their day's standards. Do you know why?

    Jesus and his apostles healed all who were brought to them as a foregleam of what was to come under the rule of God's Kingdom. They did not know what a hospital was. No one had to pay money to get well.
    Again, why would building hospitals be the job of evangelists? Their job was to preach.

    I hope you don't think that is a quote from Jesus. He most certainly used many words to teach his listeners important things. He trained his disciples to do the same. They were expected to walk the talk and so are we.

    Can you tell me what "the gospel of Christ" actually is? How do Catholics spread the gospel compared to how Jesus and his disciples did?

    “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city." (Matthew 13:11-15)

    No Catholic person (or any other denomination in Christendom) has ever called on me to offer me the Christian message. Yet Jesus said that the "good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" was to come. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

    All of the first Christians expected that Jesus' rulership of this earth would come in their lifetime. But the present ruler had to be dealt with first. (1 John 5:19)

    Jesus said in Matthew 24:36...."But as to that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the Son, but the Father alone."

    That was whilst Jesus was a man on earth.....after his return to heaven he would have been given all the knowledge he needed to become the appointed King of God's Kingdom. His coronation was seen in a vision given to Daniel long before Jesus human birth. (Daniel 7:13-14)

    Because the issues raised in Eden regarding God's Universal Sovereignty had to be settled once and for all, it was never going to be accomplished in a human timeframe. The gospels and other Bible books stress the imminence of Christ's return as judge and King. They looked forward to Christ's return to fix all of the world's problems. How depressing would it have been to know that it was still thousands of years away? God kept it right before them to keep their hope bright and their faith strong. They would have to endure so much. (Matthew 24:13)

    Please tell me where I deliberately slandered anyone? I have told the truth and I have backed it up with scripture. The pictures I have used are from Catholic sources. I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people, so my knowledge is first hand.

    Justification? Where will I find any Christians in the Bible collecting religious art works? Such art was not in existence in the early centuries because of God's law against making religious images. (Exodus 20:4-5) It was a trap to make an image because people wanted worship the thing as it elicited higher emotions that words could.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Religious art turned into images for worship. Statues are three dimensional images that dominate Catholic churches. The cross and crucifix are images.

    [​IMG]

    Again....can you see Jesus in this picture?

    [​IMG]

    God's law was not just forbidding to bow before an image....it was not to MAKE them. (Exodus 20:4-5)

    Do you see obedience to God's command anywhere here?

    Jesus' words were NOT to store up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19-21)
    The Vatican has stored billions of dollars worth of art and other expensive treasures......so what is the excuse?

    This is in 'scriptural debates' so please use scripture to back up your answers.
     
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  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    It is my belief that you misuse Scripture. We no longer live in the 1st cent Jerusalem. Jesus did not simply preach God's law, he, as did the Pharisees, interpreted it for what it meant in his time. The Apostles, in light of Jesus' D/R interpreted his teaching for and within the church, the Evangelists further interpreted Jesus teaching for what it meant for the life of their churches going forward.
    Jesus' sought only the Jews to preach the Kingdom of God having nothing to do with Gentiles,

    And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
    Mt15.
    Jesus sent out these twelve* after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10:5-6.

    It is the Catholic church, in its wholeness, not just the Roman church, that has brought Jesus to the nations. Others, including the JW's have no history in Christianity other than a few hundred years.
     
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  3. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV Strong's) 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving


    Matthew 13:11-15 (ESV Strong's) And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
    “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
    and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
    15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
    and with their ears they can barely hear,
    and their eyes they have closed,
    lest they should see with their eyes
    and hear with their ears
    and understand with their heart
    and turn, and I would heal them.’


    My Bible reads different than yours does.
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Where does he say we need to go to the bathroom?

    Same job they have now: take your money and when the poor show up, say you can't afford to help them (what happens often to a friend of mine).

    Meanwhile, Granny starves to death and lies in her own urine while the kids work out their relationship issues.

    I just can't get over how hard people work to avoid having to share.

    Do you do this in other contexts? "Sorry, I will not buy you a cool shirt, 'cause you have a shirt on." I mean, why not just be nice to people? I don't check people's tax returns prior to helping them.

    Only the ignorant would swallow everything without question?

    He could supposedly heal long distance? Why did they have to come to him? The centurion's servant didn't have to show up. Why is Jesus so lazy?

    Asclepius

    Jesus is a demigod who heals a couple of people and then we never hear from them again. Asclepius is a demigod who, according to the ancient Greeks, learned how to heal people and turned temples to him into hospitals.

    The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you." Let the evangelists market God, but the movement still needs healthcare from professionals.

    Why do we have to pretend we only have the limited issues Jesus had to deal with? Life goes on and we have to have the tools to deal with it.

    Unless God told Moses to make a bronze snake or Samuel to fill a building with art. Because short term memory loss?

    And they did ANYWAY.

    The Temple wasn't destroyed because of some golden bulls and stuff.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is my belief that the RCC has been misusing scripture to justify her beliefs for centuries. How many of their doctrines were discarded by the Protestant Reformation? Why were they discarded? Because there was absolutely no basis in scripture to support them. No scripture that tells us that Mary is the "Mother of God".....there is no place called "purgatory" or "limbo"....there can be no payment for indulgences....no "Pope"...no confessional....no rosary beads....no images...no monasteries....no vows of silence....no inquisition.....its a long list, but it demonstrates how carried away the RCC was in its own teachings and in its power over the people.

    And yet we claim to worship the same God as Jesus and his apostles worshiped....and he does not change.
    There are no new rules for the 21st century. God's laws and standards do not alter to cater to the whims of sinful humanity.
    Where can we find any sanction for breaking God's moral laws in order to meet current trends? I don't believe that putting God's laws in a modern setting alters the standard, regardless of what is happening in the world. "We obey God as ruler". (Acts 5:29)

    The Bible (especially the Greek scriptures) gives us the teachings of Jesus Christ, who was Jewish and who preached to Jews because they they were the ones to whom he was sent....not to the Pharisees, but to "the lost sheep" whom the Pharisees despised. They understood exactly what what he was saying because they were raised to believe in one God and in one set of laws and standards.

    Did anything change when the Christians broke away from apostate Judaism after Jesus' death? Only in their understanding of the significance of the blood sacrifices. They now knew that the blood sacrifices that were offered to God at the temple, prefigured the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ in their behalf. They no longer had to offer sacrifices week to week because Jesus' blood had paid the debt that Adam left to his children...in full. Their forgiveness was now possible without the literal sacrifices anymore. (1 John 1:7) The reason why a third temple was never built was because God never commissioned it. It was no longer necessary. The real temple was in heaven where Jesus would now serve faithful humanity as their High Priest. (Hebrews 9:11-12)

    Why? Have you never asked that question?
    If God's promise to Abraham was that "all nations" were to be 'blessed by means of his seed', (Genesis 18:18) then all nations were going to be blessed in the end anyway. Keeping Israel (as Abraham's descendants) separated from the nations for thousands of years ensured that the family line through which the seed was to come stayed pure. It wasn't because his descendants were better than the people of other nations, (as their conduct revealed) It was because of God's promise to Abraham that he honored his covenant. And once the Messiah had come and been rejected and murdered, then Jesus pronounced sentence upon the ones responsible. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    And yet what did this scripture go on to say...?

    "And look! a Phoe·niʹcian woman from that region came and cried out: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is cruelly demon possessed.” 23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came and began to urge him: “Send her away, because she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.25 But the woman came and did obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” 26 In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 She said: “Yes, Lord, but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” 28 Then Jesus replied to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on." (Matthew 15:22-28)

    How did it end?

    Why? Because it was not yet time for the Gentiles to be invited into the Kingdom arrangement. That came when Peter was sent to Cornelius. (Acts ch 10)

    I believe that it is the RCC that has spread the "weeds" of false Christianity that Jesus warned about. (Matthew 13:24-30) It was the only church for 1500 years and it became so corrupt that, as the end time approached, it was time for God to act. He broke the power of the Roman church, but her daughters took much of their mother's erroneous teachings with them. Christendom today stands as a monument to how many are again "lost" in the confusion of it all. Fractured into thousands of bickering fragments, the "Christianity" of today does not in any way live up to what the apostle Paul described at 1 Corinthians 1:10...."Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

    IMV, none of what Catholicism teaches remotely resembles Jesus' teachings on anything. The "weeds" spread throughout the earth virtually choking out all opposition to their false doctrines. Jesus said of the Pharisees...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)

    I believe that what is presented today as "Christianity" (in all its diverse denominations) does not reflect any of Jesus' teachings at all....in fact they are often done in direct opposition to what he taught.

    Perhaps we should discuss the many ways in which this is so?
     
    #5 Deeje, Dec 23, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do the scriptures all have equal weight in your estimations, or do we have to take one scripture as cancelling another one out?

    For example...

    If Paul writes...
    "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,

    “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
    and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people.
    17 Therefore go out from their midst,
    and be separate from them, says the Lord,
    and touch no unclean thing;
    then I will welcome you,
    18 and I will be a father to you,
    and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
    says the Lord Almighty.”
    (ESV)......and you use the scripture you quoted above to imply that it is OK to do anything as long as you offer thanks to God first....do you see one as cancelling the other out? Or must there be harmony with all scripture that is "inspired of God"?

    If you are celebrating Christmas along with the rest of Christendom, knowing full well that its roots are in pagan religion, then are you obedient to Paul's words?

    Could it be that the scripture you quoted does not mean what you seem to think it does?

    My apologies...I cited the wrong chapter. Let's try chapter 10. :)

    Matthew 10:11-15 (ESV) states....
    "11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."

    So again, I will ask the question...what work did Jesus assign to his disciples and how did they make sure that no one missed out on hearing the message? How were they to "find out who was worthy"?

    Acts 5:42..."And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus." (ESV)

    Acts 20:20...."how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house" (ESV)

    If this is a life saving work commissioned by Jesus (Matthew 28:19-20) then shouldn't it be conducted as if lived depended on it? How do emergency service personnel warn people of an approaching storm or other natural disaster? They go from house to house, making sure that people have an opportunity to escape.

    As Paul said..."For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
    (Romans 10:13-15 ESV)

    When was the last time a member of any church called at your home to give you the good news of God's Kingdom along with the warning of Jehovah's day of judgment? Were they doing so in the whole world?

    As Jesus said..."And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So unless the whole world is given this "witness"...one message of salvation....Christians are not doing what Jesus assigned to all of his disciples. People today not only miss out on getting a witness, but they are completely confused as to whom to believe when all the denominations of Christendom are teaching different things. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
     
    #6 Deeje, Dec 23, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
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  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    When was the last time you had someone come to your door to warn you there was a storm coming? I have never had that happen.


    I don't believe that Jesus commanded each and every person to go around preaching and teaching, if that were true then God would not have appointed teachers and evangelists in the church. Jesus first chose 12, then 70 to go and preach, if He commanded all to preach, why didn't He just tell everyone to do it in stead of choosing a few? We are to preach by our lifestyle, not with words. Jesus said to let our light shine among men and to give an answer for our faith, not to preach and teach, that's why the world is so screwed up now.


    This morning! This is the internet age, isn't it? All I have to do is turn on my TV or PC, and I have my teacher and preacher!! I can download sermons and have them any time, day or night. My teachers can be in thousands or millions of homes all over the world at the same time, how many can you be in at any given time?
     
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  8. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Glass houses and stones don't mix.

    "You have heard it said/but I tell you now" ... the fact we even HAVE a New Testament tells us God's mind has changed about a few things.

    The internet's mentioned in the bible? No?

    That is literally the entire bible, justifications for doing bad things to people.

    Or Greeks didn't want to listen to Jews because they weren't Jewish and wrote stories that put Jews in a bad light.

    Unlike the animal sacrifices, Jesus came back after three days. That's not a sacrifice. That's a check on a string.

    Forgiveness is possible without ANY sacrifice. Look, it's easy, "God said you're forgiven." See? Effortless.

    It was never necessary the first time. God was against it from the beginning. Solomon's hired prophets spread the word that God allowed it.

    But this racial purity stuff is stupid. God is known in the bible to do great things with non-Hebrews/Jews. It's not MANDATORY.

    But Jews weren't responsible. It's a farce designed to placate the Romans, who actually DID it.

    Why was Jesus such a racist to begin with?

    Gentiles were invited to shore up membership numbers. Jewish rebellions against Rome pretty much ensured low numbers. Jesus was against Gentiles until he realized the audience was small.

    EVERY denomination has its fair share of weeds.

    I only see anti-Catholic whining, because discussing the roots would accuse other denominations as well.

    I must judge a tree by its fruit. The less nutritious fruit gets cut from the menu.

    Jesus was telepathic. Why bother with this at all?

    Charles Xavier, with a power surge from Apocalypse, can talk to the entire globe but Jesus can't?

    Yeah, me neither. It's the least efficient means of doing something. It's like school fundraising drives: WHY GO DOOR TO DOOR AND RISK SAFETY WHEN YOU CAN JUST SET UP INTERNET MARKETING?
     
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  9. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    [
    Originally, not as many as you think. It is the later denominations that did, so much so the Luther would not recognize his reform.


    Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Whoever possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
    All three of the first reformers, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, accepted and defended this doctrine completely. So, if the Catholic Church believes in this doctrine and the reformers believed in this doctrine–by whose authority and when was this doctrine rejected by all the Protestant Churches?


    Martin Luther: "It is an article of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)


    John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)


    Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639




    You have absolutely no clue as to the origin and development of Catholic doctrine. The Church does not claim that its doctrine is directly based on Scripture.

    Because it is quite probable that Jesus had no intention of founding a new religion.

    It is in such a state because it has fragmented into thousands of religions, each picking and choosing what to keep from the original Christianity.

    Exactly, and the Scripture you like to copy and paste is the product of that very Church. There was Christianity that worshiped God through Christ long before any written New Testament.

    Perfect example of your deliberate exclusion of biblical texts you do not agree with. Prior to the "Woes' Jesus states "

    Mt 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples.

    2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.

    Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you,
    but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."






     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic church, he was aware of the corruption and just wanted it to stop. He was also aware of what happened to people who dared to question the church, so he was indeed a brave individual who started something monumental. Change would not come all at once.

    Where will I find any recommendation from Jesus that his mother should be given any special honor?

    The angel Gabriel said to Mary.....“You are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. . . . The child will be holy and will be called Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35, JB) The emphasis was on Jesus being the "Son of God"...not the "son of Mary".

    Where will I find in scripture that Jesus is God incarnate?

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Mary is truly the mother of God if two conditions are fulfilled: that she is really the mother of Jesus and that Jesus is really God. (1967, Vol. X, p. 21) The Bible says that Mary was the mother of Jesus, but was Jesus God? In the fourth century, long after the writing of the Bible was completed, the Church formulated its statement of the Trinity. (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 295) At that time in the Nicene Creed the Church spoke of Jesus Christ as “very God.” After that, at the Council of Ephesus in 431 C.E., Mary was proclaimed by the Church to be The·o·toʹkos, meaning “God-bearer” or “Mother of God.” However, neither that expression nor the idea is found in the text of any translation of the Bible.

    If Jesus never once said that he was "God" then Mary never was "the Mother of God".

    Where will I find in scripture that repetitive prayers should be offered at all in Christian worship?

    Matthew 6:7...."When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words." (NRSVCE) Empty repetitive phrases uttered as if they had some 'magical power' to facilitate penance, were never part of Christian worship. God would prefer a few simple words from the heart rather than repeating words by rote from your head.

    There was no ritual in original Christianity. It was organized for worship but not based on the old Jewish system. There were no priests officiating and no temples or elaborate cathedrals. Christians met in the homes of fellow believers to praise God and to learn of Christ's teachings....and when the numbers grew due to their preaching, they met in larger premises. The "Church" was the people...the congregation...not the building. It was the people who needed to adorn the teachings of Christ, not the place in which they congregated.

    As I mentioned, the 'daughters' took much of their 'mother's' teachings with them. This is why all of Christendom has the same core of beliefs. It is also why Christ's teachings are lost in the multitude of denominations.....all believe basically the same lies.
    i.e. 1) That Jesus is God incarnate.
    2) That humans have an immortal part of themselves that lives on after death.
    3) That all Christians are going to heaven, but they have no idea as to why.
    4) That the wicked will suffer in hell for all eternity with no way to repent.
    5) That salvation requires little more than performing ritual (by attending church or going to confession)

    None of that is based on scripture.

    Was there some scriptural reason for Mary to remain a virgin whilst being a married woman? Was Joseph to live as a celibate monk?
    In Jewish society, children were seen as a blessing from God, so why would God not bless Mary with other children?

    When Joseph was given a dream in which an angel of God told him to take Mary as his wife because the son she bore was from God's spirit, Matthew 1:24-25 states...."When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus." (NRSVCE)

    There was no reason for Mary to remain a virgin because normal marital relations were a part of God ordained marriage.

    Here's fairly good rundown on how the church embraced its teachings and where they came from......

    Paganism and Mary | Paganism and Catholicism
    Though I do not subscribe to the teachings of this group, they have certainly explained very clearly why Protestantism divorced itself from Catholicism.

    He didn't want to start a new religion, but his disciples were forced to because Israel had once again silenced the prophet sent to correct her. (Matthew 23:37-39) God now turned his attention to the Gentiles to take out of them "a people for his name". (Acts 15:14)
    He couldn't clean up the old one so he established the religion that all Jews should have embraced if they had listened to their Messiah. As the scriptures state, they were a "stiff necked people". (Deuteronomy 9:6-7)

    Since there is little from original Christianity left in the church, what are they picking and choosing from?....do you think God was responsible for this situation? Or is this what Jesus foretold would take place when the "weeds" took over and all but choked the "wheat" out of existence?

    Psalm 110:1-2 foretold that Christ would rule "in the midst of his enemies". His biggest enemies in our day are similar to his biggest enemies in the first century. They also claim to worship the same God. Satan is the god of confusion.....not Jehovah. Jesus said that satan is the one who planted the "weeds".(Matthew 13:37-43)

    I can assure you that not a single word of scripture was written by any Catholic or Protestant. All were written by Jews.
    And since it is the "word of God", then no human is responsible for its contents without his say-so. He can use even his enemies to serve his purpose, as he demonstrated in the past. The Bible is not a product of the church and never was.

    I have already addressed this. It was when God's word was read aloud in the synagogue that Jesus said to obey what they said.....not the erroneous teachings that the Pharisees had added. He pointed out their many hypocrisies in Matthew 23 and told them where they would end up as a result of adulterating God's laws with their oral traditions. Will we see the same again? I believe so.
     
    #10 Deeje, Dec 24, 2017
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You don't have this in America? What happens when a tornado is bearing down or a hurricane? If people haven't got mass media in their home...or if they live alone or are deaf or blind....what is the best way to warn them of the danger? Wouldn't neighbors call on them and see to their safety? We call on our neighbors.

    After what happened in Japan in 2011, emergency services deemed that if a similar warning was issued for Australia, (if NZ has a major quake, the east coast of Australia will be issued with a tsunami warning) they would have to go door to door to make sure everyone heard. Not everyone can hear and not everyone has a radio or TV.
    In rural Australia (where I live) we have local fire service personnel who call door to door to make sure that people are prepared for bush fires in summer. They check out guttering and any other hazards close to homes. It is welcomed, especially by the elderly or disabled who live alone. In winter they do the same with smoke alarms.

    I believe the same principle applies to us as applied to Ezekiel....." If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul. 20 Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 But if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul.” (Ezekiel 3:18-21 ESV)

    If you fail to warn those who will suffer destruction at God's hand because of following a wrong course, God will demand your own life as recompense.

    You imagine that all the people of the whole world wake up to the internet? You make no allowance for those who live in remote areas where there is no internet or the poor who have no money for cell phones or tablets? Must be nice to live in a country where the rest of the world can be ignored.

    We too have the internet and a very active website, available in 240 languages....but there is no substitute for the personal calls where people can ask their questions in private and express their concerns whilst reading someone's body language and discerning the intonation of their voice when answering. We conduct one-on-one home Bible studies for that reason.

    Jehovah's Witnesses preach in every nation on earth and no matter how distant or inaccessible the territory, we will try to call on the people even in the remotest parts of the earth....by 4WD....plane.....on foot....by canoe....we will be there with the good news. I believe that this is what Matthew 24:14 means. "The end" is rapidly approaching and the world is spinning out of control....people want answers and the churches cannot provide them.
     
    #11 Deeje, Dec 24, 2017
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  12. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Is everyone where you're from "emergency service personnel"? Do you live in a small town with a population of 50 or so?

    I guess the US is more advanced then Australia, we have emergency broadcasting over here. We have emergency warnings on our cell phones, we have emergency warning sirens in every town and city. We have battery powered emergency radios that people can buy. No one ever goes door to door to warn people. I'm sure the elderly and disabled have emergency plans in place. You don't need "mass media" to get emergency warnings, just a little ol' cell phone or radio.
     
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  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    I guess every Christian will have to give their lives as recompense. How many people in Australia have lived an evil life and ended up killing someone that you didn't warn of the course they were following? Will God demand your life as recompense for someone killing another?
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, we have a larger population than that but the emergency service personnel are one body who have the same job and the same goal.
    These try to warn their neighbors of approaching danger.

    I have heard only Americans say that....but then, you have nothing to compare yourselves to, so perhaps you have no idea how the rest of the world views y'all? :D "advanced" isn't a word I would use actually.

    Physically deaf people can't hear sirens or radios.....not everyone has a cell phone, especially the elderly who find technology rather baffling.......spiritually deaf people can't hear anything, no matter how many alarms are sounded. Think about Noah's day. Do you think Noah installing sirens would have helped? :shrug:
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Strange reasoning, but not unexpected from you. Very few people have not received a visit from us. If they turned us away, then their guilt is on their own head. We tried, like Noah tried to warn the people of his day...they don't take any notice because not too many people take us seriously. (Matthew 24:37-39) Not too many took Jesus seriously either....he said that history will repeat....people will ignore the warning for all the same reasons....I believe him. The preaching work is almost complete and when God says its time...the door of opportunity will close as surely as the door of the ark was closed...not by Noah, but by God.
     
    #15 Deeje, Dec 24, 2017
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  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hello Deeje.
    I think that I might have seen such a thread as I looked through 'recent posts'.

    Not that this refers to that thread, but I'm often amused if members start threads asking for outside opinions but put them in sections where outsiders cannot post.

    I couldn't read all of your post in detail but I did 'snatch' on a couple of paras, and so would like to offer something.......

    I don't think that Jesus did. Well, he didn't!
    But Paul wrote most of the guidances, rules and laws for Christians to follow, and he did require that Christians pay in for the provision of all services in their communities and countries, but I think it meant for all people to receive, not just selected folks in an exclusive group. Most of this would be provided by taxation, I'm thinking:- Romans 13:6.
    But Jesus did ask for all sick to be looked after:- Matthew 10:8 Luke:10:9
    ??

    Interestingly, no Young Widows seem to qualify for support, which is sad because those are the ones with young children and most in need. I suppose they were expected to get married again? 1Timothy 5.11

    Whether a widow might receive support or not seems to have depended upon whether the community decided that she was/is worthy........... that's a bit wishy washy......!
    1 Timothy 5:9-16
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hey OB, nice of you to drop in. :)

    In Romans 13, Paul is speaking about the secular governmental arrangement and a Christian's position in relation to it. In context it reads.....

    "For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.
    5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. 6 That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor."


    This leaves no room for Christians to oppose the government of their nation. Paul said the ruling authorities exist by God's permission for the good of all citizens. We are to pay our taxes, which in turn entitles us to use roads, hospitals or any other service that they provide. This includes the police who "bear the sword" to protect all citizens. We will comply with all government laws as long as they do not ask us to break the laws of God. (by conscription into the military, or by making it illegal to preach, for example)

    Matthew 10:8..."Cure the sick, raise up the dead, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free." This was admonition to those who took the good news to others. In apostolic times all these things were possible by the operation of God's spirit, but it was not to last forever. The gifts died with the apostles, because Christianity was no longer in its infancy, the Christian arrangement now called for them to 'grow up' not needing the visible things to hold their faith. (Hebrews 6:1; 1 Corinthians 13:11)....but the last part of that statement in Matthew 10 was to apply always.....we are never to charge money for spiritual services rendered. The churches have ignored that memo, sadly. :(

    Yes, it seems that marriage was expected of them. Older widows were cared for because they were past marriageable age and may not have had grown sons to provide for them. I am reminded of Ruth the Moabite widow of Naomi's son. When her two sons died leaving young widows behind and childless, and she herself was a widow, Naomi determined to return to her people. Ruth's sister returned to her people at Noami's urging, but Ruth insisted on returning with her mother-in-law to a strange place and a different culture to serve Naomi's God. Under Naomi's guidance, this foreign woman of remarkable character became an ancestress of Jesus. Although still young, she married a much older man so that she and Naomi would be cared for under Israel's legal repurchasing arrangement.

    Repurchase, Repurchaser — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    It wasn't just the community, but the elders in the congregation who determined who was worthy. As verse 16 says..."If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her assist them so that the congregation is not burdened. Then it can assist those who are truly widows."

    Finances were not unlimited so relatives were supposed to step up and provide assistance in these cases. Even Paul worked at his trade so as not to become a financial burden on the congregations he visited.

    1 Thessalonians 2:9...."Surely you remember, brothers, our labor and toil. We were working night and day, so that we would not put an expensive burden on any one of you, when we preached the good news of God to you." This is why none of the shepherds in our congregations are paid. They all work and earn their own living....that way congregation funds are spent where they are most needed.
     
    #17 Deeje, Dec 24, 2017
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  18. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Right, Luther felt betrayed by the church he loved and rightfully so.

    Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” Lk 1:28, 30

    We believe that God gave her special privileges, but these are related to the graces of discipleship given through Christ and in no way divinize her. All believers in Christ are delivered by his grace from the sin of Adam: All believers in Christ will be raised from the dead. Catholics believe that Mary, the first one to profess belief in Christ as revealed by an angel, was through Christ's grace the first to be totally freed from Adam's sin.

    Then why present them?

    The Pharisees, unlike the Sadducees, believed the Law could be interpreted. Again, Jesus
    admonished people to observe what they teach as they hold the seat of Moses. What He spoke against was their hypocrisy.

    "I and the Father are One."

    Your entre post simply testifies to your ignorance of the Catholic Church, and of the formation and compilation of the Gospels. themselves.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Was this the immaculate conception? Where can I find any scripture that even remotely suggests that Mary was sinless?

    In the law of Moses, (Leviticus 12) it stated that when a woman gave birth...."When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest."

    If Mary was sinless, then don't we have to ask why she made a "sin offering" at the temple in accord with God's law?

    The law also said...."But if she cannot afford a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

    Was the sinless Mary "unclean" and needing atonement? What did she offer so that the priest could make atonement for her?

    ".... when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” 24 And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:22-24)

    Do you believe that the magi were at the stable where Jesus was born? If that was the case, then Mary and Joseph held back the correct offering, which was a young ram. They offered "a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons", the offering of the poor. With expensive gifts from the magi of gold, frankincense and myrrh they would have sold one of the gifts and purchased the correct offering.
    The magi were never at the stable. They came much later when Mary and Joseph were living in a house. (Matthew 2:9-11)

    I already told you why. I agree with their expose' on the origins of Catholic beliefs.

    He did speak of their hypocrisy and as a result they could expect the judgment of "gehenna".
    In Matthew 16:6...."Jesus said to them: “Keep your eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

    The teachings of both sects were corrupt.

    Matthew 15:1-3..."Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why do your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.”
    3 In reply he said to them: “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?
    "
    After giving an example he said..."So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition."
    Their oral traditions 'invalidated' God's word. Have the traditions of "the Roman Church" done the same thing?


    A few chapters on in John 17:20-22 Jesus said....."I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

    So....unless you think all of Jesus' disciples were also part of the godhead, I think you have a wrong slant on that verse. This has nothing to do with a trinity, but is a statement of unity....'oneness' of thought and purpose.

    If my information is incorrect, then I invite you to please defend your church's teachings with scripture.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    How can you possibly see Jesus in these pictures? This is not the Christianity started by the Son of God.
    So where did all this come from?
     
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  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Noah prepared by building an ark. How have you prepared? The minimum one has to do is seek the LORD while he may be found and forsake their wickedness and their unrighteous thoughts. Yeshua said that the end comes when the kingdom of heaven is preached throughout the world (Matthew 24:14). I am thinking that you preach the false gospel of grace in its place. The "end" includes the gathering up of the tares "first", and then the gathering of the wheat (Matthew 13:30). Isaiah 26:20 says to go into your rooms and shut the door. Have you prepared a room to go into for a little while the tares are gathered?

    Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. 7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
     
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