Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I do not believe in the rapture, can you convince me that I should?
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I don't hold to a particular stance on the Rapture. Because, quite honestly, as long as you are walking with the Lord, and expecting His appearing, it shouldn't really matter.
You are not alone in thinking this. I would guess that the majority of Believers today think the same way. However, I don't agree for a number of reasons...
Christ returning for the Church is a major theme throughout the New Testament (John 14:1-3; Titus 2:13; Phil. 3:20; 1 Cor. 1:7; 15:51-53; 1 John 3:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; etc). If it's important enough for God to have emphasized over and over again, I think it should be a doctrine that matters deeply to us, one that we study and look into.
There are a couple different views on when the Rapture will take place (5 I think). We are commanded to accurately handle the word of truth (1 Tim. 2:15). This means we have the responsibility, and the privilege, of searching the Scriptures to discern, by the power of the Holy Spirit, which view is accurate and fits in the context of the whole Bible. What one believes about the Rapture doesn't just effect how one interprets "Rapture" passages. It effect how one interprets other extremely significant portions of the Bible. For example, is God done with Israel? Is the Church spiritual Israel? Are we in the Tribulation now? Is Revelation literal, allegorical, something that already happened? Can believers experience God's wrath? Will Christ really reign for 1000 years, or is He reigning now spiritually? All these questions in some way or another are effected by the stance one takes on when the Rapture will occur. And what we believe about all these questions will effect how we live our lives.
Hmmm... Tim LaHaye has some good ones: "Charting the End Times" has lots of colorful illustrations, charts, time-lines etc. real easy to grasp, good for young people, too. His "Revelation Unveiled" is good. Although some find him contorversial, Hal Lindsey wrote a very good one covering many views of the Rapture, etc. and argued well for a pre-trib Rapture in "Vanished Into Thin Air". Those are more 'popular' authors, I have some others, some smaller ones, and there are better books than those I mentioned I'm sure that go even deeper.
I do not believe in the rapture, can you convince me that I should?
I hold to a pre millenial view of the second coming and a pre tribulational interpretation of the Lords appearing to us and our being snatched away to be with Him (the rapture) When do you believe the rapture will occur in relation to the tribulation? (If at all)
I just want to say the last several posts have been very good! Slabbey, Hope, Rick, Paul, etc. very good!
Terry, most people do not question whether there will BE a rapture, but more of WHEN it occurs, i.e. before the Tribulation, in the middle, or at the end...and etc.
Joboonda and Paul Thanks for your posts.
for my understanding and faith... things I read in the Bible must not only have a consistency of thought with Christ's teachings of a God of Love; but also have a logical development from this. I simply do not see this in the "Rapture"
Most people in the Anglican faith Do not even speak about the rapture: nor have I ever heard anything taught about it in any of our churched during the past nearly 70 odd years.
I have never met any one, to my knowledge, who believes in it .
I am not saying no one believes it, but it is certainly not main stream belief here.
I agree that the rapture is certainly very important. And you are absolutely right. We should study about it, and be discerning, especially in these last days. I think one of the major problems with the church these days is lack of discernment. I could go into another whole tangent on that topic.
However, all that said, the very fact that so many interpretations of the timing of the rapture exist is because the Scriptures are not explicit in this regard. It is definitely a major theme, no doubt, but not one that should be divisive to the church. Because that's mainly what I see. A little camp over here, saying this is how it is, we've got it right, then another camp over here saying, no, you're wrong, this is how it is, etc., etc. And that's distracting us from where our focus should be---simply on Christ.
I've read Revelations several times, and the other Scriptures you pointed out, and have heard various viewpoints, and still haven't come away with the conviction that we can be absolutely certain when the rapture will occur. And I'm always a little bit skittish around folk who think they've got everything down pat about portions of Scripture that aren't explicit. Sometimes people get carried away, and start claiming they know the day and hour of Christ's coming (when Christ Himself said He didn't know), they know who the Anti-Christ is, and all this other stuff that the Bible does not explicitly say. We definitely need to be aware, to be watchful of the signs of the times, to be constantly grounded in His Word, and to look for His appearing, but I think holding too tightly to beliefs about things the Bible is not absolutely clear on can possibly do us more harm than good. Because what if it turns out you are wrong about the timing of the rapture? That could greatly affect your life as well! This is why I hold it lightly. I say ok, Lord, only You know for sure. I'll just keep my eyes on You, keep walking close beside you, and Your Holy Spirit will give me discernment and wisdom at the proper time.
I hope this helps explain why I feel the way I do. But I totally respect the opinions of yourself and others who hold to a certain stance. Who knows? You may be right.
Yes, Pre-millennial all the way.......
The very structure of the new testament demands that Christ shall return BEFORE the millennium. Here are a few:
1. When Christ comes He will RAISE THE DEAD, but the righteous dead are to be raised BEFORE the millennium, that they may reign with Christ during the 1000 yrs. hence, there can be no millennium before Christ returns. Rev 20:5
2. When Christ comes he will separate the "tares" from the "wheat", but as the millennium is a period of Universal Righteousness the separation of the tares and wheat must take place BEFORE the millennium. There can be no millennium before Christ returns. Matt 13:40-43
3. When Christ comes Satan "Shall be bound", but as Satan is to be bound during the millennium, there can be no millennium before Christ returns. Rev 20:1-3
4. When Christ comes Antichrist is to be destroyed, but as Antichrist is to be destroyed before the millennium, there can be no millennium before Christ returns. 2Thess 2:8, Rev 19:20
5. When Christ comes the Jews are to be RESTORED TO THEIR OWN LAND, but as they are to be restored to their own land before the millennium, There can be no millennium before Christ returns . Ez 36:24-28, Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10
I completely agree that this shouldn't be something that is divisive in the church. We have enough to deal with as it is. There are many Believers who do not hold the the Rapture view I do who I greatly admire and learn from.
You mentioned the Scriptures not being explicit in regards to the Rapture. This is very interesting to me and something I'm trying to think through. Is there really ever a time the Bible isn't explicit on anything, or is it that my sin distorted mind is unable to grasp what's being said? God is the creator of communication, order, and clarity. As His child/servant, He's commanded me to obey Him and serve Him, and He's given me His Word which is everything I need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). It seems to me that in light of all of this, He wouldn't be vague with me in His Word, but would communicate His truth clearly and so that I understand. So are there different views on different aspects of the Bible because it's unclear or not explicit, or are there different views because sin has distorted our minds?
My thought process has wandered a bit from the Rapture, but I thought I'd share.
Pre- trib rapture.:yes:
going on the first load!
You have a good point. I could very well be blinded by sin. I'll be the first to admit I don't understand many, many things in the Scriptures. And definitely we're dependent upon the Holy Spirit to reveal anything at all to us in His Word.
I do agree that God is a God of order and clarity, but for reasons all His own, He has chosen to keep some things (not all things!) hidden from us, or somewhat of a mystery, until their proper time. For instance, God chose not to tell us about much of Jesus' earthly life. It remains a mystery to us. God chose not to be explicit about what happened between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis chapter one. We only have a smattering of information pertaining to the fall of Lucifer and his angels. And there are many more examples. God is definitely not explicit about everything. As Paul says in I Corinthians 13:
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Until the fullness of times, until we see Christ face to face, we can only know things in part.
Glad to hear it Rocka. What a gathering it will be, just think of the people who we we see and the loved ones we have lost let alone Jesus Christ Himself, who wouldn't be exited about such a prospect?