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Satan

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jaiket, Oct 26, 2005.

  1. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

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    Religion:
    Something else
    I'm sure it has come up before, but it seems a curious affair to me.

    This God created Lucifer, a nice chap by all accounts, who then decided by his own free-will (which I thought angles lacked but not the point) to become evil, as some kind of pastime I presume.

    Concerning Lucifer's covetous nature, why did God decide to make him as so?

    If he was created perfect how did he become imperfect?

    Where does the definition of perfection allow for tainting?

    Why was he allowed to wander Earth corrupting humans?

    Is Lucifer really Satan?

    What is difference in the Hebrew accounts and Christian tradition?
     
  2. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Through choosing to
    In itself. Perfect is an "imperfect" word.
    Perhaps to show mankind that God would be able to display that his power exceeds all,
    regardless of adversary.
    Is the Pope really God?
     
  3. Nick Soapdish

    Nick Soapdish Secret Agent

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    I believe it all comes back to love. Love is not meaningful without creatures with freewill. To create a world with love, there must exist free creatures who are capable of rebelling against that which is good.

    If God subverted any attempt to harm others, we wouldn't have much freewill.
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Rebellion against Jehovah God is not a good place to put one self, it will lead to destruction eventually. and that is what will happen to the opposer satan the devil:tsk:

    He lusted for power ,and longed to place himself above Jehovah God. the name Lucifer in the bible is not a scriptual name for satan the devil its a translation thing again

    The Hebrew word translated "Lucifer" means "shining one." The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means "bringer of dawn." Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew "morning star" or "Daystar." But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses "Lucifer" (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible

     
  5. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    I was certain it meant "adversary"..
    but then again would make little sense referring to planet Venus in its appearance as the morning star.
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    the name satan means resister or adversary
    "Devil" means "Slanderer," "Accuser," or "Maligner.

    Satan is also called the "serpent" because he used a serpent to deceive Eve in the garden of Eden.

    And he is termed the "dragon" because of his propensity to devour

    Who is this Lucifer?

    The expression "shining one," or "Lucifer," is found in Isaiah 14;4,15,16

    "Is this the man that was agitating the earth?" Clearly, "Lucifer" refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.

    The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of "the god of this system of things"—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan





     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Satan:

    from:- http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7079.asp


    The devil was created by God as an angel, who was free, and as a free agent chose to oppose the plan of God. That is, the devil is a fallen angel. Satan is not evil by nature, but by will and action. In Satan there is no truth whatsoever; he is absolute falsehood and deception. Satan is not just a negation or deprivation of good, but a positive force with free will that always chooses evil. The devil has the ability to recognize divine power, as in the incident of recognizing Christ as the Son of God (Matt. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-3). Satan has under his leadership legions and invisible powers, with their own "satanic teachings." The devil and evil spirits know that God exists and recognize true and devoted Christians, but pious Christians discern the plans of the devil. The devil, however, constantly employs every method of deception to enslave man to satanic forces and causes rebellion against God. He is the cause of corruption and disorder, a parasitic power in the world that will ultimately be destroyed by the power of God in the "last days." Because there is no compromise between God and the devil, the struggle will continue until the end.

    Lucifer
    from:-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm



    The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
     
  8. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    i look at this as sort of a challenge. Satan was "cast down" because he disagreed with the creation of mankind. Satan, believing man would only sin and destroy each other, thought man should not be created. Satan, in an effort to prove his side, is allowed to try to corrupt mankind, but God knows what he does not. God knows man will eventually succeed in evolving to a state of messianic consciousness despite the evil temptations from satan.
     
  9. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

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    simple, he wasn't created perfect - as far as i am concerned, there is only one being that is perfect, and that is God! no other being is supremely perfect, this includes angels ;)

    because he can - it is within his power to tempt every lifeform on earth, and he has the free will to decide to do it

    C_P
     
  10. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    To show that God allows chance to anyone to come to him, regardless of whom or
    what they were. In the end, God knew that the time would come for him to expel
    all the bad in this "judgement day".
     
  11. pandamonk

    pandamonk Active Member

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    EVIL? If you want to see evilness look here. I give the moral argument for Satan here too if you facny reading that.
     
  12. Bea Ond

    Bea Ond cixelsyd rebmem

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    Angles do have free will, but only to a degree, and they do have a point. Angels on the other hand are another matter. (sorry Jaiket, I couldn’t resist :p )
     
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  13. angellous_evangellous

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    You've asked some pretty insightful questions, particularly the last one. As far as I know, Satan and Lucifer are pretty much the same "person" in Christian tradition.

    The definition for perfection allows for taiting by means of freewill. Lucifer/Satan had a choice as to whether or not to obey God, he chose to rebel, and therefore became "tainted" in his rebellion.

    The difference in Hebrew and Christian tradition is also seen in the different Hebrew traditions. The Ha-Satan was simply an accuser in the heavenly court (like the first chapter of Job) in early Hebrew tradition - I think that the name came from a Babylonian god who had a similar name (shatan if I remember correctly). The Hebrews simply adopted the Babylonian god's name and gave him a nagative role in their tradition. In later Jewish texts, Ha-Satan took on a more personalized role, which is why we see Satan/Lucifier as having a personal role in the NT.
     
  14. Jack E Martling

    Jack E Martling New Member

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    Man, I am so not down with the Devil. I think Satan is hella bogus, dude.
     
  15. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Satan did not decide to become evil. He decided that he wanted to be ruler instead of rulee, lord instead of servant. The deeper meaning here is that such a decision may have led him to evil, which is an interesting topic for discussion in and of itself, but Satan did not wake up one morning and say, "I think from now on that I will be evil."

    It's not that angels have no free will (depending on who you ask). It's that angels are so close to God that it would be very hard for them to rebel against God's will. Very hard but not impossible.



    It's not that God made Satan covetous. God made Satan with free will, then Satan became covetous.

    perfect what?

    Again, perfect what?

    free will. God's plan. I dunno.


    There is only one reference to "Lucifer" in the bible, a reference to his "fall" in Isaiah 14:12. And actually, the Isaiah text does not say "Lucifer," which is Greek for "bringer of light." The Hebrew in Isaiah refers to the "son of morning," which was then translated into "Lucifer." The reference to the "fall" of "Lucifer" has traditionally been interpreted to be a reference to Satan, and thus Lucifer and Satan were thought of as one and the same. But biblical scholars tend to believe now that "Lucifer" was a reference to the planet Venus, or the morning star, and the "fall" refered only to the fall of the king of Babylon.


    "Ha-Satan" in Hebrew means "the Adversary." And he is considered to be our adversary, but he is not the "prince of darkness," working in opposition to God. Satan in the Hebrew tradition is not "fallen"; he is a servant of God. He is, ironically, the devil's advocate, always arguing the unpopular side. He's the one who tests us, places obstacles in our way, to see if we really are as good on the inside as we claim to be on the outside.

    Satan in the popular Christian tradition is a fallen angel who now works in opposition to God. At one time he was second in command in heaven, second only to God, and he was beloved by God and the most beautiful and glorious of all the angels. His beauty and high position made him arrogant and he decided that there was no reason why he should be a servant instead of "lord." So he rebelled and a third of the heavenly host sided with him. A big battle raged but Michael finally defeated him and cast Satan and his followers into hell.

    To be honest, it's not clear to me how much of this story is biblical and how much of it is appocryphal and how much is due to popular culture and Milton. Milton's Paradise Lost has had such a profound effect on how I view the Christian Satan that I can't see him any other way. He is an anti-hero, almost sympathetic in his flaws, and much more understandable than God who is aloof in the story. That's why Blake approvingly said that Milton was "of the devil's party" even tho he did not know it.

    What's really interesting is when you contrast the Jewish version with the Christian version with the Islamic version. In Islam Iblis (Satan) is not a fallen angel, nor is he a servant of God. He is a Jinn, and his transgression is that he refused to bow to man. God made Adam and commanded the heavenly host to pay homage to him. All of the angels obediently bowed to the new creation but Iblis refused, and for that was cast out of heaven. On this, I believe, all Muslims agree. But where they differ is in the interpretation as to why Iblis refused to bow. Traditional Islam says that Iblis was simply too arrogant, too prideful. But Sufism says that Iblis refused to bow to Adam because he would bow to no one but God, such was his love for God. And that God loved Iblis for his devotion in return even as He cast him out for disobeying Him. It's almost like a Shakespearean tragedy, King Lear or something. I reeeeeeeally like Sufism! :)

    In case it isn't obvious, you've hit on one of my favorite topics. I've always had sympathy for the devil. ;)
     
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  16. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    This passage confuses me. Is it that Satan always disguises himself as an "angel"
    of light to disguise his evil intent?
     
  17. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Yes. Satan is an angel, albeit a fallen one, and appears as an angel of light to deceive Christians. That's why we're told to test the spirits to see if they are of God. Just because something looks good and holy doesn't mean it is.

    James
     
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  18. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Your answer looks good so I will frubal it :)

    What forms, besides the serpent and the crowned dragon did he appear as?
    [font=arial,]..to my knowledge, the Bible does not reveal where Satan originated. It is enough that we are told he exists, and that he must be resisted (James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8-9)...What other background does he have?[/font]
     
  19. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well, much of what we know about Satan (his rebellion and casting down) actually comes from the Book of Enoch. That was well regarded by the early Church and is still considered useful reading for us, despite its not being in our canon - rather like other texts such as the Didache or the Protoevangelion of James, though Enoch is a pre-Christian text. It would, in actual fact, be rather an exaggeration to call Enoch non-canonical as it is in one modern canon, that of the Ethiopian Church, but then we don't have the same sort of a scripture/non-scripture dichotomy as many, particularly Protestant, Christians have.

    James
     
  20. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    i read your moral argument for satan and totally disagree. satan has done much more than 3 things wrong, but i do not wish to debate it now as i feel it would be a complete waste of time.

    Peace
     
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