Satan: A Child of God?

[cardero]

Originally Posted by cardero
But the "nature" of Satan and his followers that you are purporting closely resembles the behavior of any human which makes your claim to the purpose and existence of Satan and his demons inefficient and unnecessary.

and your point?

That just because someone or something whispers “bad” advice into another's ear does not qualify for the existence of an entity called Satan, does not support the reality of a devil or give anyone the reason to have faith in demons.

 

[madhatter85]

That just because someone or something whispers “bad” advice into another's ear does not qualify for the existence of an entity called Satan, does not support the reality of a devil or give anyone the reason to have faith in demons.

I'm not asking anyone to believe in it.

 

[cardero]

I'm not asking anyone to believe in it.

And I am not asking you to convince or prove it to me. I'm telling you-you are entitled to the belief! There is nothing incorrect with having the belief. Now what I need from you is the reason why you believe in it and why you feel or want this belief to be true. So far, the only understanding that I have learned about the belief in Satan, is that you need this entity to support your claim that God has a need and a will for humankind.

My counter point is that it appears that if this entity called Satan can be upstaged and outperformed by the misguided ignorance of a mere human mortal, then how can this entity described as Satan be defined as a purposeful threat or a menacing evil to humans and God?

 

[madhatter85]

My belief stems from the doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great price the Bible, Book of mormon, and other various talks given by general authorities of the church. and also I have my own feelings on the subject which peopel have not expressed or is not technically doctrine.

What i feel is correct -

there is opposition in everything.

Jesus Christ and Lucifer would be opposites.

Jesus Christ is able to bless us physically and spiritualy and be our advocate with the father. Lucifer has the ability (in our fallen state) to persuade us because we are cast off from the presence of our father. It is LDS belief that Lucifer before his rebellion was given authority, authoirty very similar to Jesus Christ's. (namely the priesthood) but because of his open rebellion in trying to take the throne from God, he was cast out.

It is my speculation according to my belief in LDS theology that, Lucifer was merely the one who rallied those who sought to take the throne from God. hence why all those who were cast out with him can also no longer repent either, having openly rebelled against God. because he is unable to repent, he seeks to make everyone as miserable as he is by trying to keep us as far from the truth as possible.

Even without Satan, we would still make mistakes and learn from them, but it would have been easier without an adversary constantly trying to block our path of progression. without him trying to keep us retained and held back from our potential because he can never have it. He can never have an increase in power or authority. and he can not dwell in the Father's presence.

His motive is simple, he has everything to lose and nothing to gain. Like a suicide bomber, who knows he is going to die, and thus is going to try and take out as many people with him as he can.

The thing that makes us more powerful that Satan is that we have a physical body, he has never and can never experience mortality and all of its wonders. we came here to gain a body and progress towards becoming like our Heavenly Father. It is our belief that everyone who came to this earth and gained a body will be resurrected nomatter how bad they lived thier life. that Resurrection is The Free Gift given by Christ.

Having a perfect physical body by nature will make us more powerful that Satan could ever hope to be. and those who are sons and daughters of perdition will inherit Outer Darkness (or "hell" if you prefer), along with Satan and he will be subject to those who did gain a body. And, the only one who are sons and daughter of perdition are those who committed the unpardonable sin of rebelling against God after having partook of the fullness of truth.

Presidents of my church have taught "What does it take to become a Devil? you must have had enough knowledge to become a God, and rebelled against it.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm kind of wondering what you are implying by "children" Katzpur. You are not designating GOD as a Father figure, are you?

Absolutely. Acts 17:28 states, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." And Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" There are at least a dozen instances in which Jesus Christ specifically refers to God as "your Father" or "our Father." I am not a Bible literalist, but I think the evidence is pretty convincing that the word "Father" is not just some meaningless title for God. I believe that we're all His children (i.e His spirit offspring, not His physical offspring), and that Satan/Lucifer was at one time one of His spirit children as well.

I'm finding this to be kind of interesting. Several non-Christians have said that if God created Satan, then he would be a child of God. Christians don't seem to have a whole lot of thoughts on the subject, though. I wonder why.

 

[Quiddity]

So, if you believe in Satan, do you believe he was one of God's children? Why or why not?

Yes...at one point he was. But since he has fallen from the good graces of our Lord, it would be incorrect to call him the brother of Jesus or those in the Body of Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes...at one point he was. But since he has fallen from the good graces of our Lord, it would be incorrect to call him the brother of Jesus or those in the Body of Christ.

I'm not saying that he is Jesus' brother -- at least not now, but congrats on being the first to zero in on where I'm heading. If he was at one time in God's good graces, and was created by God, that seems to imply to me that he was at one time a child of God and was at that time consequently a brother to God's Only Begotten Son. Of course, he no longer lays claim to that relationship.

 

[TheWhiteWizard]

Satan was one of God's children, until he rebelled and now is the adverserary of God and man alike. But why couldn't he become a child of God again? If he went back to God, would God forgive him? Many of you have already stated otherwise, he rebelled against God openly and therefore has no chance of ever getting back in God's good graces. But if God is all-forgiving as Christians say he is, Satan could become a child of God once more.

 

[astarath]

I never saw angels as anything more than servants in Christ's house. We are in a position above them as we are truly sons due to Imago Dei. Even the greatest angel would still only remain as the greatest servant!

 

[cardero]

Maddhatter85 writes: It is my speculation according to my belief in LDS theology that, Lucifer was merely the one who rallied those who sought to take the throne from God. hence why all those who were cast out with him can also no longer repent either, having openly rebelled against God. because he is unable to repent, he seeks to make everyone as miserable as he is by trying to keep us as far from the truth as possible. Even without Satan, we would still make mistakes and learn from them, but it would have been easier without an adversary constantly trying to block our path of progression.

How does this BEing Satan differ from people that we know?

For example, some of us may know of someone who demonstrates the same abilities as Satan to make everyone miserable around them because they too have difficulty accepting the Truth about their lives or themselves. Is this person Satan?

Is this person BEing influenced by Satan?

How can one tell (without judgment or reproach) if another person is BEing influenced by Satan as compared to someone who is just not obligated to the same contracts or will of God?

How can you (Madhatter88) personally tell when Satan is making things miserable to you and when it is not just you making things harder for yourself?

How can you (Madhatter88) tell when Satan is making things harder for others and it is not just others making things “bad” for themselves?

If you believe that humankind is equally capable of making their own mistakes without the assistance of demonic whisperings, what is Satan’s purpose compared to the other negative effects of people who interact or effect our lives?

If Satan cannot be attributed to every “bad” thing that happens to our lives and if it as easy to rebuke and refuse Satan as it is with any other human advice or suggestion, what is the threat that Satan poses to us?

What is the threat that Satan poses to God?

If Satan is less powerful than us, has no possible way of defeating God, is observedly ineffective in his purpose to produce misery, what is this BEing’s claim to fame? Why should this BEing be talked about, believed in or favor our concern or attention? What is the big deal about Satan?

 

[cardero]

Katzpur writes: Absolutely. Acts 17:28 states, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." And Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" There are at least a dozen instances in which Jesus Christ specifically refers to God as "your Father" or "our Father." I am not a Bible literalist, but I think the evidence is pretty convincing that the word "Father" is not just some meaningless title for God. I believe that we're all His children (i.e His spirit offspring, not His physical offspring), and that Satan/Lucifer was at one time one of His spirit children as well.

What do you believe is God’s relationship as the father to his “children”?

Do you believe that this relationship is the same for everyone?

What do you believe is God’s relationship to Satan?

What is your understanding of children in the life of the family and can this understanding be applied or compared to as the parent relationship you believe that God has with us?

In what aspects of this relationship do they differ?

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry to be brief, Patrick, but it's past my bedtime and I've got to get my beauty rest.

What do you believe is God’s relationship as the father to his “children”?

I'd say it is, by design, intended to be very much like the relationship we have with our earthly fathers. I see God as the embodiment of all of the attributes and qualities that a perfect father would have.

Do you believe that this relationship is the same for everyone?

No, but I believe it potentially could be. I believe that God wants to have the same perfect relationship with each of us, but that some of us aren't all that interested.

What do you believe is God’s relationship to Satan?

Now? I don't believe they have a Father-son relationship any more. They once did, but Satan (known premortally as Lucifer) chose to end the relationship by willfully trying to destroy the plan God had in mind for the immortality and eternal happiness of mankind. He did so knowingly and with contempt for everything his Father wanted.

What is your understanding of children in the life of the family and can this understanding be applied or compared to as the parent relationship you believe that God has with us?

I believe that every person who has ever lived or will live is part of God's family and that our familes here on earth are essentially microcosms of a much larger eternal family. I believe that all of us are the spirit offspring of heavenly Parents (yes, you read that right), and that our relationship with them is, or can be, very much like the relationship we have with our mortal parents -- except perfect.

In what aspects of this relationship do they differ?

I'm not sure if my last paragraph answered this or not. If it didn't, maybe you could rephrase your question and let my try again.

 

[gnostic]

So, if you believe in Satan, do you believe he was one of God's children? Why or why not?

I don't believe in Satan. But if God created all the angels, from reading the non-canonical biblical literature, then Satan would indeed be a child of God, fallen or not.

Sorry to be brief, Patrick, but it's past my bedtime and I've got to get my beauty rest.

And I always thought that cat sleeps too much. Apparently, I was wrong.

 

[gnostic]

Satan was a spirit child of God, who rebelled against God, by choosing not to come to earth to obtain a body and be tested.

The version I got in regarding to Satan's fall, was that he indeed arrogant, but it had nothing to do with coming down to earth to take on physical body.

According to the Haggada, shortly after God created Adam, he wanted all the angels to bow down Adam, because God had created man "in his image". Satan and some of his followers refused to him. Satan considered Adam to be a lowly being created from the soil of the earth, whereas he was the greatest of angels, because he had 12 wings.

Satan wanted to test Adam on his intelligence, which God agreed; if Satan lost this wager then he must bow to Adam as Satan's superior. Satan was not able to identify a single animal God created (species), but Adam knew what to call each animal specie. So Adam won, but Satan refused to bow to Adam. So God flung Satan and other angels to earth for arrogance.

THE FALL OF SATAN

The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels. They attempted to consume him with fire, and he would have perished, had not the protecting hand of God rested upon him, and established peace between him and the heavenly host. In particular, Satan was jealous of the first man, and his evil thoughts finally led to his fall. After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven, with twelve wings, instead of six like all the others, refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, "Thou didst create us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now Thou dost command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which Thou didst fashion out of the dust of the ground!" God answered, "Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than thou." Satan demanded a trial of wit with Adam, and God assented thereto, saying: "I have created beasts, birds, and reptiles, I shall have them all come before thee and before Adam. If thou art able to give them names, I shall command Adam to show honor unto thee, and thou shalt rest next to the Shekinah of My glory. But if not, and Adam calls them by the names I have assigned to them, then thou wilt be subject to Adam, and he shall have a place in My garden, and cultivate it." Thus spake God, and He betook Himself to Paradise, Satan following Him. When Adam beheld God, he said to his wife, "O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord our Maker." Now Satan attempted to assign names to the animals. He failed with the first two that presented themselves, the ox and the cow. God led two others before him, the camel and the donkey, with the same result. Then God turned to Adam, and questioned him regarding the names of the same animals, framing His questions in such wise that the first letter of the first word was the same as the first letter of the name of the animal standing before him. Thus Adam divined the proper name, and Satan was forced to acknowledge the superiority of the first man. Nevertheless he broke out in wild outcries that reached the heavens, and he refused to do homage unto Adam as he had been bidden. The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels. Michael addressed Satan: "Give adoration to the image of God! But if thou doest it not, then the Lord God will break out in wrath against thee." Satan replied: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High! "At once God flung Satan and his host out of heaven, down to the earth, and from that moment dates the enmity between Satan and man.'

Source: The Legends of the Jews, vol. 1 chapt. 2, The Fall of Satan.

 

[gnostic]

Satan was one of God's children, until he rebelled and now is the adverserary of God and man alike. But why couldn't he become a child of God again? If he went back to God, would God forgive him? Many of you have already stated otherwise, he rebelled against God openly and therefore has no chance of ever getting back in God's good graces. But if God is all-forgiving as Christians say he is, Satan could become a child of God once more.

Now that's a really interesting thought.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Some things would need to be cleared first for me to say yes or no.

I believe we are all a portion of god. That is to say, each soul is split off from god, a part of God. That's what I think is meant by "in his image and likeness" and that we are "children of god". So, going with that, if Satan is an actual soul, a spirit, then yes, Satan is a child of God. If, however, like I believe, satan is a metaphor for the creation of two poles - "right"/"wrong", "evil"/"good", left/right, up/down, light/dark, fast/slow, then it's entirely different. It is not a child of god in the same sense as a candle lit from a fire, but more in that it is a mythology, a symbol for the creation of here and there - the spawning of relativity - where things are relative to one another.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm not saying that he is Jesus' brother -- at least not now, but congrats on being the first to zero in on where I'm heading. If he was at one time in God's good graces, and was created by God, that seems to imply to me that he was at one time a child of God and was at that time consequently a brother to God's Only Begotten Son. Of course, he no longer lays claim to that relationship.

They were brothers in the same sense that Christ is both my brother, my God, and my Lord. It's not a biological type of relationship.

 

[madhatter85]

How does this BEing Satan differ from people that we know?

I'm not sure because alot of other chrisitans don't believe that satan is really there, they think he just sits in hell torturing "bad people" has horns, a tail, and a trident. I think very much away from that viewpoint. If you have ever seen constantine this is the best holywood version of Satan

For example, some of us may know of someone who demonstrates the same abilities as Satan to make everyone miserable around them because they too have difficulty accepting the Truth about their lives or themselves. Is this person Satan?

of course not, where would you get this idea?

Is this person BEing influenced by Satan?

I think they could be influenced by satan of any one of his multitude of followers who are in the same position as he is.

How can one tell (without judgment or reproach) if another person is BEing influenced by Satan as compared to someone who is just not obligated to the same contracts or will of God?

It is not up to us to judge anyone on thier motives or why they do certain things, It is up to the individual person to understand the reality of Satan and the influence he and his followers can have on thier own hearts because of how they live thier life. Everyone is subject to the will of god nomatter who they are, God is no respecter of persons, there are those who are more subject because they have taken covenants upon themselves to do so. but nobody is exempt. Everyone is born with the Light of Christ, but living your life in a deviant fashion only makes the spirit of the lord withdraw and allows for other influences to be stronger in your life.

How can you (Madhatter88) personally tell when Satan is making things miserable to you and when it is not just you making things harder for yourself?

He can not make you feel the way you do or make you do anythign, he can only entice you to "stay angry" as an example. say someone has wronged you. and you get mad, which is a normal human trait, It is my belief that Satan will try to stir your heart up to more anger by trying to keep you angry rather than forgiving.

How can you (Madhatter88) tell when Satan is making things harder for others and it is not just others making things “bad” for themselves?

It is not my place to judge any of this. only my own life.

If you believe that humankind is equally capable of making their own mistakes without the assistance of demonic whisperings, what is Satan’s purpose compared to the other negative effects of people who interact or effect our lives?

I've already stated what i believe he does and what his motive is. He only makes it harder by trying to keep us is a state of misery by telling us that it is "ok" to be angry or it's "ok" to not forgive, or it's "ok" to lie a little, or to steal a little.

If Satan cannot be attributed to every “bad” thing that happens to our lives and if it as easy to rebuke and refuse Satan as it is with any other human advice or suggestion, what is the threat that Satan poses to us?

It's our human carnal nature, selfishness, anger, fear, lust, materialism. he uses those things against us to try to keep us from being truely happy. Just as real human beings give bad advice, or try to manipulate people, Satan does the same thing.

What is the threat that Satan poses to God?

He poses no threat to God, only his children and God's plan for our happiness.

If Satan is less powerful than us, has no possible way of defeating God, is observedly ineffective in his purpose to produce misery, what is this BEing’s claim to fame? Why should this BEing be talked about, believed in or favor our concern or attention? What is the big deal about Satan?

He is not completely powerless. he is not unproductive in his efforts to produce misery to people, look at the state of the world we live in. Let's think about a ninja for a minute, the ninja's biggest advantage is people not knowing he is there. if you know where he is at, and can feel his movements in the shadows behind you, you will know where he is going to try and strike from. same applies to Satan. The ninja does not want you to even suspect he is there or will be there, he wants you to think he doesn;t exist because then your guard is completely down.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I think that this is really a simple anwser it's yes IF the christian God did create everyone that would include Satan, which would make Satan his son.

 

[Katzpur]

They were brothers in the same sense that Christ is both my brother, my God, and my Lord. It's not a biological type of relationship.

Okay, well if they were brothers in this sense, then we have no disagreement.