Salvation - permission, but no ability

[Just_me_Mike]

As it goes, there are many ways Christians teach or are taught about salvation.

My understanding is as follows:

Salvation is available, and all have permission to receive it, but no one has the ability to act upon that permission to receive it.

Much like telling a new born babe they have permission to drive to the store and buy as many pacifiers as they would like. However the babe has no ability to act upon that.

In both situation, it is equally impossible.

So then, how can one obtain salvation if this is the situation?

*** For once I would love to have the brain power of even the Atheist, so that we can determine what the bible teaches. Doesn't mean you have to agree, believe or whatever, but that shouldn't keep a person from distinguishing what the bible teaches.

 

[sandandfoam]

I agree with what I understand to be the Islamic position regarding the nature of people. I believe people are intrinsically good, that they are born innocent and I believe salvation involves being true to our essential nature - our core selves.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I agree with what I understand to be the Islamic position regarding the nature of people. I believe people are intrinsically good, that they are born innocent and I believe salvation involves being true to our essential nature - our core selves.

And this is shared in Pelagianism, another form of Christianity and one overtaking the Christian community as a whole.

The problem for me is if the bible is our final authority (for me as a Christian) what does it teach about this subject? It seems this was a hotly debated topic between Pelagianism and Calvinism. While I am not a Calvinist, I have to side with them on this topic, because there is overwhelming evidence in the bible we are inherently not good.

 

[Man of Faith]

Did the OP forget about John 3:16 where it says "whosoever"?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Did the OP forget about John 3:16 where it says "whosoever"?

Don't be so simple. Of course I know that verse, but one verse is simply not enough to stand an entire religion on.

For example Romans 3 vs 10-18, indicates exactly what I am saying in the OP.

The permission is there, but the ability is not.

 

[sandandfoam]

And this is shared in Pelagianism, another form of Christianity and one overtaking the Christian community as a whole.

Pelagius is my favourite heretic

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Pelagius is my favourite heretic

What small bit I have studied, his argument just doesn't stand the scrutiny of the scripture. I am open to learning, but the idea of original sin is saturated in the scriptures. He wholly dismissed this mostly in my opinion, to be able to have significance or partnership with God when it comes to salvation.

I don't think the scriptures teach, nor do I think it represents God in the bible to de-glorify God with a man-made works type plan to salvation.

 

[Dunemeister]

Edit. I'd say that human beings are capable of responding to the light they have been given. It just so happens they generally refuse.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Edit. I'd say that human beings are capable of responding to the light they have been given. It just so happens they generally refuse.

Living in the age in which we live, on the surface I would agree with you, that this appears to be true. The problem arises when one's beliefs are pressed, and the essence of what one believes and what the bible teaches are not in agreement.

That is where I take issue with the concept of free will in regard to salvation, as taught by the scriptures.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Generally Christians read too much.
Thre never has been a consensus, just a majority position.
with out going deeply into theology it is clear that God Favours the good.
Original sin is about Adam and Eve. (mythology)
Even catholics seem to be modifying their position on original sin and infants.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That is where I take issue with the concept of free will in regard to salvation, as taught by the scriptures.

I do not see that the scriptures teach anything about free will / salvation.
However many interpreters throught the ages have.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Generally Christians read too much.
Thre never has been a consensus, just a majority position.
with out going deeply into theology it is clear that God Favours the good.
Original sin is about Adam and Eve. (mythology)
Even catholics seem to be modifying their position on original sin and infants.

Again citing Roman 3 10-18, it may be clear God favors good, but defining what good is in the sight of God, seems to be the crux of the matter.
Clearly Paul was taught something differently.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Again citing Roman 3 10-18, it may be clear God favors good, but defining what good is in the sight of God, seems to be the crux of the matter.
Clearly Paul was taught something differently.

What Paul taught depended very much on the context and who he was writing to and their particular problems.
He is very hard to tie down in absolute terms. He was always the pragmatist.
It is a pity he was unable to spend time with Jesus as a disciple.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

What Paul taught depended very much on the context and who he was writing to and their particular problems.
He is very hard to tie down in absolute terms. He was always the pragmatist.
It is a pity he was unable to spend time with Jesus as a disciple.

Well as you put it, as mythology has it, he did indeed spend time with Jesus perhaps more than them all.

It just depends on whether or not you believe Jesus was able to do this with Paul after Jesus died.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well as you put it, as mythology has it, he did indeed spend time with Jesus perhaps more than them all.

It just depends on whether or not you believe Jesus was able to do this with Paul after Jesus died.

There is no reason to believe he ever did do so, or that Jesus has ever done so with anyone else.

The person Jesus probably spent more time with than anyone else, was Mary Magdalene and the Gospel about her is not even in the Bible.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

There is no reason to believe he ever did do so, or that Jesus has ever done so with anyone else.

This simply tells me your view of Jesus and who he is. Of course if Jesus is not equal with God, than the idea of Jesus working with people after Jesus left would be silly perhaps.

However, God worked with men throughout the ages according to scripture, just as I am suggesting Jesus worked with Paul. Beyond that is the depth and nature of what was written by Paul speaks volumes about who he learned from.

I respectfully disagree with you, and realize there is no proof either way.

 

[Dunemeister]

Living in the age in which we live, on the surface I would agree with you, that this appears to be true. The problem arises when one's beliefs are pressed, and the essence of what one believes and what the bible teaches are not in agreement.

That is where I take issue with the concept of free will in regard to salvation, as taught by the scriptures.

You're saying the bible says that we don't because we can't. I say it says that we don't because we don't want to.

 

[zenzero]

Friend itwillend,

Salvation - permission, but no ability

As it goes, there are many ways Christians teach or are taught about salvation.

Just like to point out that salvation can not be taught it is firstly to be understood by the individual and then work to remove the dust that had settled on IT.
Each one is always a part of THAT, but does not realise IT.

Besides if the message is conveyed by enlightened master it has great effect and when by parrots????

Love & rgds

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The whole erroneous Idea, that because things are in God's hands, we can not effect our salvation, what ever we do or believe. is why so few people ...

Have Compassion for others
Fight against evil
Contrary to what Jesus taught, think that gathering riches is in some way "Christian"
Think ethics don't matter
Do so little to right wrongs in the world.

There is no doubt in my mind, that what we chose to do in this world is more important than what we believe, when it comes to Salvation.

The belief that Faith alone is sufficient, is a cop out.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You're saying the bible says that we don't because we can't. I say it says that we don't because we don't want to.

I know what you are saying. Have you ever studied from both perspectives?