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Featured Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    What do you teach your people if you don’t have a doctrine? Freestyling? A pinch of Christianism, a pinch of Buddhism, Taoism, Mysticism and as you move along you pick other beliefs and pattern it with Baha’u’llah’s writings and voila! a new revelation from Baha’u’llah and this is what we mean by “Progressive Revelation”.
     
  2. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    One of the reasons why a lot of people are still confused about the true meaning of Christianity is because some professed Christians still adhere to idols and statues, some to the Law of Moses [tithings and the Sabbath], some to mysticism, and some to all kinds of other religions mix into one. These are the semi-hybrid Christians and by their teachings or “DOCTRINES” one who truly adheres to the Bible should be able to recognize them just like how I recognized your twisted, adulterated “DOCTRINES”.

    Do you really think you could just pick up verses in the bible and mix it with your twisted, adulterated doctrines and hoping that no one will notice it, or even question it, and with these mixed doctrines you think you could CHALLENGE the Literal resurrection of the Lord Jesus? Do you really think that you can get away with it without anyone challenging you?
     
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  3. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    ”OWN”? What like a property? God is the owner of the Bible and we Christians just follow them. Do you own your boss’ property or follow what your boss is telling you?

    Interpretation should be within context and not out of context. Your interpretation of the bible is not just out of context or all the way out in the left field but actually out of the park.

    ”Baha’u’llah was a descendant of David” NOT IN BIBLE.
     
  4. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    ”VENDETTA”? Your OP is challenging the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, remember?

    Phil 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;
    Phil 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
    Phil 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    There is NO OTHER NAME but the NAME OF JESUS only. NOT BAHA’U’LLAH or his son. There is no room for Baha'u'llah here. You know why?

    Phil 2:5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phil 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
    Phil 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.

    Baha’u’llah did not die on any cross. Baha’u’llah did not resurrect. Baha’u’llah did not ascend into the heaven and seating, as we speak, at the right hand of God. NO! None of these took place with your imaginary god.
     
  5. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    The local church can inform you of resurrection of the people that resurrect with Christ... Its all there in their documents! This is why tombs disappear on the graveyard...this is why a mistel hung on the door of the resurrected!
     
  6. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    ”the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha” and mixed it with the “Church doctrines that were decided upon by councils of mere men”, is that what you mean?
     
  7. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    In the Bible, they had a faint recollection of Adam, and used Him in a story.
     
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  8. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    By what standard of studies or age assignments did they compare it from?
     
  9. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    If we read medicine, there are slight evidence of resurrection, there are two outcome i can come from read the idea that someone is deceased and walk among the patients of the hospital
    a. fraud
    b. he's alive from the dead.

    parhaps c. someones fault in the documents
     
  10. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    The subject is complex and requires complex sophisticated analysis. Your approach of throwing out anything supernatural sounding and assuming the remainder is historical is too simplistic to lead to historic truth. You might as well read The Jefferson Bible if that is as far as you are willing to go. The truth is that even the non-supernatural passages are not necessarily historical. This is especially true of Gospels written after Mark since clear agendas can be seen in the additions they make to Mark. The fact that these other Gospels incorporate portions of Mark but provide much other material that not only has a plain purpose in furthering a program unique to the writer but is in strong contradiction to the other Gospels points directly at invention.

    If the beliefs of a historical Jesus can be found in the NT, it could only be in the Gospel of Mark. Let’s see what we can find.

    In Mark 2:15-17, there are many publicans (tax collectors) and sinners among the followers of Jesus. These are the outcasts of society, at least according to the ‘scribes and Pharisees’ who criticized him for it.

    Mark 7:1-13 has Pharisees and scribes (again) criticize Jesus because his followers do not observe the hand-washing ritual. As pointed out here this has nothing to do with hygiene and is to be done even if one’s hands are clean. The (written) Torah contains a ritual that priests must follow but nothing like this for anyone else. Extending the ritual to those outside the Temple is apparently part of the Oral Torah tradition, a Pharisaic tradition. As can be seen in this passage, Jesus opposes the Oral Torah because it has been made to conflict with the Written Torah. The Shammai Pharisees, who were predominant in that sect at that time were all about obsessively following the letter of the Law, including the ‘mad made’ ones, as Jesus calls them. An important point here is that people at a distance from Jerusalem are not following a certain ritual that is not in the Written Torah. The take away from this passage is that the Pharisees are seeking to impose their rules on people, regardless of how it may impact the Written Torah

    Mark 10:2-12 has Jesus opposed to divorce for any reason. This makes an interesting contrast with other schools of thought. Hillel thought a man could divorce his wife for any reason at all. Shammai restricted divorce to infidelity only. (BTW in Matthew’s version of this passage he sides with Shammai.)

    In Mark 10:17-29 Jesus is asked how to obtain eternal life. He replies with certain commandments to follow. These are straight out of the Decalogue. They are the commandments that relate to action. Since Jesus is clearly an observant Jew based on his strong defense of the Torah in chapter 7 above, he would surely not have meant to discard the others. After all, in verse 18 Jesus emphasizes the supremacy of God, who gave the commandments. Jesus can be seen to be stressing the importance of action. This fits well with the attitude of Jesus in chapter 7 in opposing mere obsessive rule-following.

    This is followed by Jesus pointing out that wealth can be a serious obstacle to entering the kingdom of God. The disciples were astonished at this. Why should that be? At that time (and other times including now) material wealth was considered a sign of God’s favor. If even a rich man did not make the grade, what hope was there for the disciples who had given up everything? But Jesus says that it is really the other way around. The last shall be first.

    Mark 11:15-18 has the famous episode of Jesus chasing the moneychangers out of the Temple. He calls them thieves. Apparently, they were not just changing money to the appropriate kind but ripping off their customers by charging exorbitant exchange rates. But notice that Jesus was on the Passover pilgrimage to Jerusalem. If he opposed the Temple or the priesthood he would not have done that.

    In Mark 12:13-27 it is clear that Jesus believes in a resurrection. It is the Sadducees who challenge him on this, the only mention Mark makes of the Sadducees. It was the Sadducees, the wealthy upper class, who were responsible for maintenance of the Temple. If Jesus were opposed to the Temple and/or priesthood, Mark would surely have said more about the Sadducees.


    In Mark 12:28-44 Jesus says that the greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus already spoke of the need to follow the (written) Torah. As in chapter 10, he is not rejecting it but underlining what is important about it. It is the ‘love your neighbor’ part that has been forgotten and needs to be remembered again. Notice that in verse 33 the scribe refers to Hosea 6:6, that Matthew makes explicit and puts in the mouth of Jesus. What Jesus said “is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices”.

    If you want to know what the mission of Jesus was all about, read and think on the above.

    Concerning your post, I have no idea what baptism has to do with ‘mercy before sacrifice’, or where you find reference to demonstrations and picketing at the Temple. Mark refers to an uprising but there are no details given. However, I am sure you will provide some.
     
  11. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Back in Post #900 you did not seem to have any notion that KP and KAP were the Greek letters Kappa Rho and Kappa Alpha Rho. Now suddenly you knew all about it.

    Back in Post #878 you said that KP and KAP meant “'Kratros (sic) Romaion' or The Power of the Romans”. This is in fact the suggestion made by Meshorer in 1982 as documented here and previously quoted. Now you say it is a contraction of the Greek for Caesar. That is an intriguing possibility. But it is not what you said previously.

    Back in Post #860 I presented a long list of my opinions on the development of the Gospels that I came up with by individual investigation. I challenged you then and now repeat that challenge to tell me what institution teaches these ideas. Do I need to repeat that long list? Very obviously I am not institutionally indoctrinated. But you continue to repeat that claim without basis and in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.


    It is possible that I may have misunderstood statements you made and responded inappropriately as a result. I am not aware of any such instances but we have exchanged many posts now so I could be wrong. Can you provide examples? If so, I will address them as may be needed.


    I am not sure what a myther is. If you mean that I believe in myths as real history, I do not. If you mean that I think the Jesus story is entirely mythical, I do not, If you mean that I recognize that the Gospel writers were inventing what could be called myths to suit their individual purposes, that I do. However I think the word ‘myth’ is not really appropriate. If you want to know about myth read Campbell or Armstrong or even Hamilton. Myth is eternal. It takes place in a time out of time. The Gospels were telling stories about supposedly recent historic events.


    Hundreds of years? What did that mean?

    You have given zero evidence of a real historic Jesus opposing the Temple and the priesthood. I have given very substantial reason for thinking that is definitely not the case. Yet you continue to make this claim again and again.


    Despite your imaginings, the Pharisees are not the priesthood as I have repeatedly pointed out. Yet you cling to the priesthood idea. Simply repeating it without any backing accomplishes nothing.


    The passage you are referring to is Matthew 22:15-21

    Verse 17 makes it very clear that they are talking about tribute to Caesar, not the Temple. They wanted to entrap him on the question of Roman taxation, an unpopular topic. If he spoke for the tribute, he would be unpopular in the mind of those present. If he spoke against the tribute, that was grounds for the Romans to arrest him. If they were talking about the Temple Tax, he would certainly not speak against it and there would be no opportunity for entrapment. Your premise is just wrong.

    The Greek word used for the coin they showed to Jesus in verse 19 is dēnarion. This is a denarius, a Roman coin. It is not the shekel or half-shekel required for the Temple Tax. Jesus asks whose picture is on it and what the inscription says. (Verse 20) They say Caesar. (Verse 21)

    Here is the most common denarius of that era, depicting Tiberius Caesar. All denarii from Augustus on had the image of an Emperor and the word Caesar.

    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...enarius.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121113035554

    The image is Caesar’s. The inscription says Caesar. The word used in denarius. Not a Temple Tax coin, about which there would be no controversy about ‘rendering’ ad no chance for entrapment.

    I have previously discussed this passage and the passage in Matthew 17:24-27 where the coin involved is a stater. In both of these passages, a coin is mentioned that is not a shekel but has the value of a half-shekel (denarius) or of a shekel (stater, payment for 2 people). Also notice that in the Matt. 17 passage, there are people who collect the tribute in Capernaum. According to the Mishna on the Tekalim, the Temple Tax was collected at the Temple, not in ‘field offices’. And once more, notice that in Matt. 17, there is debate as to whether to pay the tribute.

    These passages in Matthew are not about the Temple Tax, they are about the war reparations tax levied on Jews, of the same amount as the Temple Tax. The Romans would have no problem in accepting whatever popular currency there was of the right value and the Tyrian shekel was no longer minted. Matthew invented these passages when he wrote around 80 AD or so, apparently to discourage resistance to the Roman taxation and the problems that would bring.




    Incorrect. Eastern Aramaic was (and is) the Aramaic originally spoken in the general Mesopotamian region, and later further west. Galilean Aramaic was spoken in the Galilee, as opposed to the Judean dialect spoke in Jerusalem. (Ibid.)

    Read my previous post about finding a historic Jesus in Mark and tell me what you think it shows abut the Jesus story. In a subject such as this, ‘short’ is not ‘sweet’. But here is the basic idea.

    Jesus opposed the program of the Pharisees to impose on all Jews man-made rules that are not in the (written) Torah and that abrogate the spirit of the Torah. Jesus wanted instead to spread the idea of focusing on the spirit of the original Torah, with emphasis on (1) love of God {2} love of our neighbor. He got in trouble with the authorities for basically disturbing the peace on a grand scale and the Romans did their thing on him.

    Just what Jesus believed in terms of messianism and apocalypticism is unclear. Did he view himself as a messianic figure? Did the common people view him that way?
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Christians use that same argument. They say Creation is real. The Flood and the devil and hell are real, because Jesus believed them. But I guess Jesus was wrong?
     
  13. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    How throughough are we???
     
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Then why say that Adam is a manifestation? How about Noah and Abraham? You don't believe what the Bible says happened in their lives, but you believe in them? That they were manifestations? Little things add up to a lot of questionable inconsistencies.
     
  15. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    The evidence is there for you, it's not only in the bible. The historical Jesus, is still among us today... he resurrected didn't he!
     
  16. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    According to Acts 1:1-11 Jesus ascended into the clouds, presumably into heaven. Which parts are to be believed and which not?
     
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  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the scholars are speculating.
     
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Who had a faint recollection of Adam? And if they used this mythic character in a story isn't that more myth?
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe my way is to look at the evidence. The world speculates and fantasizes.

    I don't believe Abraham can be considered a messenger but certainly he had a relationship with God.
    I don't believe there is enough evidence to say that Krishna is anything more than a religious philosopher.
    I believe Moses qualifies as a messenger and had a personal relationship with God.
    I believe I don't know much about Zoroaster so I would consider him a religious philosopher unless I find out more.
    I believe the Buddha is a religious philosopher.
    I believe Jesus is God in the flesh so God'smessage comes to us straight from the mouth of God.
    I believe Muhammad is a messenger of God and may have had a personal relationship but his reputed comments listed in the Hadiths may be nothing more than forgeries from religious philosophers.

    I believe the BAB and Baha'u'llah did some religious philosophical writing.

    I believe there is no evidence to support this statement and that the statement is false.

    I believe they must receive Jesus as Lord and Savior to be part of the Resurrection except for Jesus who is the Resurrection.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Moses wrote the book of Genesis so it is possible that he was receiving his information from God. It is a stretch to think that folklore lasted that long.
     
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