1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,572
    Ratings:
    +8,030
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    I do qualify as I know the true God directly and you don't. You follow a book and I have direct first hand knowledge.
     
  2. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +478
    Religion:
    None of the above
    The Apostles did not abrogate the OT (Jewish) laws. Paul records multiple instances of clashes on exactly that point. It was Paul who wanted to abrogate Jewish Law and have no one practice it anymore. Even in the Synoptic Gospels, which show strong Pauline influence, there is no indication of abandoning the Law. The Synoptic Gospels are very clear about Jesus and the Apostles being observant Jews. John seems to want to have it both ways, intimating that the Law s already repealed in the lifetime of Jesus, but having Jesus be very observant concerning the pilgrimage requirements.

    The ‘wineskin’ analogy appears even in Matthew, who has Jesus insist that the Law is not going away. To Matthew at least it does not mean forgetting Jewish Law. Notice that in all three Synoptic Gospels, the Law continues to be observed right to the end, despite the wineskin analogy.

    The teachings of Jesus were straight out of the Torah, very often exact quotes.

    Gentiles were never required to follow Jewish Law. From the Jewish standpoint only the Noahide Laws applied to Gentiles. Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

    The squabbles seen in Paul were about whether Christianity (following the Christ) was part of Judaism or not. If it was (as the apostles apparently thought) Jewish law applied to Christian converts. If it was not, then Jewish law did not apply. Paul went even beyond that, insisting that Jewish Law was to be abandoned even by Jews. This was utterly inimical to what was clearly the origin form of Christianity.

    I need once again to remind you that I am not a believer. I find the story of how Christianity came about to be truly fascinating. But unlike some non-believers, I bear no animosity. I do not think there was, is or will be any such thing as a Messiah. But who held what beliefs and why is part of the story I find so fascinating.


    The writers apparently believed in these things and presumed their readers did as well. I of course do not.

    Matthew 1 is deeper than it seems. But his adroit tour en l'air is too involved to deal with now.

    Likewise the use of the Temple theme in Mark et al.

    Next time …
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    27,360
    Ratings:
    +15,195
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Was Zeke a minor prophet? And please do not alter my quotes without making it clear that you did so. That is not allowed in any well moderated forum. I do not want others to assume that I am an abuser of "Green ink - RationalWiki"
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,800
    Ratings:
    +1,946
    Religion:
    undecided
    It's sad when these threads started by Baha'is start to fade. These are important questions to explore. The Baha'i claim that Christ has already returned, if true, is the most important thing to have ever happened for humankind. But, many times, Baha'is don't have adequate and/or convincing arguments to support their claims.

    This question about whether Jesus rose physically from the dead would destroy historical Christianity. It destroys what the NT seems to be saying. If the Baha'i are correct in this, then the whole ending chapters of every gospel has been a symbolic fabrication added into the Jesus story. Is it obviously allegory? No, not when people are told that the NT is the truth of what happened. So as unbelievable as the events in the life of Jesus are, his followers are expected to believe it. They are expected to put their trust in the writings of the NT. If those writings aren't dependable, then what do we know about Jesus? What do we know about God? And, what do we know and can trust as true about the return of Christ?

    Baha'is, by making key events in the life of Jesus allegorical, they completely change everything that was ever thought or believed by Christians. If the Baha'is are right, Christians have never had the correct beliefs about God and Jesus. He is not alive and well physically. He is not the one that will return. He is not the one that is going to judge the living and the dead. And, if the Baha'is are right, he is not even the "lamb of God" mentioned in the Book of Revelation. He is nothing in the Book of Revelation. All the references to "The Lamb" to the "King of Kings" and "Lord of Lords" and any other such things are all switched to the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

    Baha'is have some strong points they make. They have some strong prophetic interpretations. But, they also have many that aren't. Their case for the "symbolic" resurrection is somewhere in the middle. They have some good points and several very weak points. And I hope more of them take the time to respond to questions being asked here on this thread.
     
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,304
    Ratings:
    +106
    The resurrection is fundamental in saying that He conquered death itself because He's from God to carry out such a mission. Or else, He would have been just another dead man ever claimed himself a savior.

    The evidence is so obvious that each and every dead man can tell. The strong feeling of being forsaken, the giving out of spirit along with a loud cry (it won't be heard in our realm though) they are all signs of the process of a human death. We don't know the meaning simply because no dead man can come back (perhaps except me) to tell you their death experience. On the other hand, if no dead man can come back to tell the disciples what a human death process is, how come those signs signifying death were written in the Bible? Someone must have come back from death to tell the disciples about the characteristics of death for them to write down in the Bible. That's what Jesus did after His resurrection! That's the evidence!
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,800
    Ratings:
    +1,946
    Religion:
    undecided
    "I hope more of them take the time to respond to questions being asked here on this thread." I guess not. You Baha'is are all done?
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,564
    Ratings:
    +952
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe you need to read my lips: I speak the word of God and I know you do not because you have shown you don't know everything because I do not rely completely on the book, however as God I credit the book as having what I intended it to have.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,564
    Ratings:
    +952
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe Zeke was a minor prophet but he had an important message about the Messiah.

    I believe I will accommodate you about colorizing what I am referring to but have fun trying to figure out what I am referring to.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,564
    Ratings:
    +952
    Religion:
    Christian
    Maybe that is why they fade because not having a good argument leaves them vulnerable so all that is left for them to do is hide from the truth.
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,800
    Ratings:
    +1,946
    Religion:
    undecided
    It's very difficult to debate or discuss the issue of the resurrection when they believe Jesus died and is still dead. And they say all verses that talk as if he rose physically are symbolic and have been interpreted wrong.
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,192
    Ratings:
    +6,129
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I have been extremely busy CG, so haven't had too much time for RF of late. Sorry to anyone here who feels abandoned.

    I'm currently the Baha'i representative of the interfaith council of my city and so have been talking to a guy similar age to me who used to attend the church (Baptist) I used to attend. The only thing is that about 4 years ago his marriage broke down and he subsequently converted to Judaism. He attended our Ridvan celebration which was great. He believes the story of Noah as recorded in genesis is literally true. Why not you may ask. The story as written has a great deal of detail about the dimensions of the ark so one could be forgiven for having the impression from the account that it is literally true. My sense is that there's not too much point in trying to convince him that he could be wrong as that's what he believes.

    I'm a Baha'i so believe in Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah didn't rise from the dead, appear to His disciples, and then ascend througgh the stratosphere into outer spce. He didn't build a boat that housed all the animals and plants in the world and then endured a great flood that covered the whole earth. Baha'u'llah's miracle for me is somewhat more compelling and real. Over 40 years He endured torture, imprisonment and exile at the hand of the Persian and Ottoman Empires. Through it all he arose to procliam with love and wisdom a vision for huamnity that is world embracing that has become even more relevant and more urgently needed today than it was back then. That's the miracle I believe in.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    4,800
    Ratings:
    +1,946
    Religion:
    undecided
    Yeah, you're back. But the rest of the gang kind of disappeared also.
     
Loading...