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Featured Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Chariton’s novel Chaereas and Callirhoe involves the heroine falling into a death-like coma and being buried in a tomb. She wakes up when grave robber pirates raid the tomb. They sell her into slavery. Her tomb is later found empty. But the heroine is eventually reunited with the hero.

    The date of the novel being written has been estimated anywhere from the middle of the 1st century (based on a possible reference to a portion of the title) to the late 1st century or early 2nd century (based on vocabulary) to after the first quarter of the 2nd century (based on possible influences on it from other works) to as late as the 6th century (based on style). See Chariton - Wikipedia.

    If we take the earliest estimate, it is possible that Mark may have been influenced by this novel, since he appears to have written shortly after70AD. If we take any of the other date estimates, it is possible that it is the other way around, that Chariton was influenced by Mark.

    Nonetheless, the idea that Jesus rose from the dead was around well before Paul wrote in the 50s AD as everyone he wrote to already seems to know about it, if not necessarily to have believed it. Chariton may have influenced Mark’s portrayal but it is not the origin of the resurrection story itself.

    Since Chariton’s novel ends with the heroine being found, the question arises that if Mark’s ending is just fictional why does he not make up a story about people finding the risen Jesus? All the later Gospels do. An early tradition about an empty tomb and someone claiming Jesus rose from the dead. (an element missing from Chariton) works well as the origin of the resurrection story.
     
  2. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    What you call too long rants are in fact the presentation and examination of evidence, an approach you would do well to learn. Your approach is simply to make claims without evidence and complain loudly when challenged.

    The ‘flight of the youth’ fits in very neatly with Mark’s theme of using clothing as metaphors and pointers to deeper thoughts. That is what you do not get.

    I had already pointed out that commonly used coins were accepted regardless of potential idolatry. If you think all coins were acceptable, what do you think the moneychangers were doing?

    Mark uses a number of terms more familiar to those in the western side of the empire, e.g., denarius. One theory is that his audience was exactly that mixed Christian community of Jews and Gentiles in Rome that Paul wrote to. Maybe, maybe not.

    As previously requested, please point out what part of Mark have been changed by ‘Christians’ and how you know this. And Christians would never want to turn something in a Gospel into an intentional symbol as opposed to a literal event. Your fantasy about Christians inventing such an idea is patently wrong. But I see you just love those conspiracy theories

    As I have repeatedly shown and you have repeatedly ignore, all of the comments Celsus made about he birth of Jesus are simply contradictory alternatives to specific passages in Matthew, even to the point of quoting them. That is the one and only source Celsus had in that matter. No ‘lost’ sources.

    I never said Jesus was a myth. I said the opposite, that the evidence points to there having been a real Jesus. But the story grew in the telling, mainly at the hands of Paul, whose ideas and language can be seen in the Gospels. I do not need to believe in a literal understanding of the Gospels to see what the writers intended to be understood and what motivated them to write what they did.

    I suggest you go back and read the things you wrote and see the irony of you accusing someone else of ranting.

    Do you have anything relevant to say that you can back up with evidence and/or detailed analysis? If not, don’t bother saying anything.
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Those who left everything to follow Jesus now leave everything to get away from him. Mark does not exactly have a positive view of the disciples.
     
  4. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    but his followers claim He ascended

    did they believe heaven was in the clouds?.....seems they did

    and we know better now.....don't we?
     
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  5. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    ....one point at a time.
    I don't think that all coins were acceptable..... I just told you that only Tyrian half and full shekels were acceptable in the Temple because of exact weight and silver purity, and that they wre struck with Baal's features, graven image and Caesar's abbreviated initials in Greek!
    But you clearly had no idea about that.
     
  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    This is so much fun!
    You, who don't appear to accept any of the gospels, want me to show and prove which parts were edited, added to, fabricated?

    ALL G-Jphn's timeline is a fabrication using (some) genuine anecdotes and reports. The Nativities are ALL fabrications possibly using some genuine anecdotes or facts. Marks gospel is messed with, such as the last verses being added. There is much more.

    Josephus's entry got messed with, although he did make an entry about Jesus. He placed his mention in amongst the troublemakers, revolutionaries etc which might give idea about what he really wrote.

    You need to study about all this, and more.
    :)
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    We are told it is within this world, this is one quote;

    "Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work… is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call “time and place.” – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 96.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Already covered, but I've got a new angle.
    You have quoted and requoted Origen repeatedly as a foundation for refuting Celcius but there are sections where Origen had very little idea of dates or key figures. For instance, in a quote of Celcius which mentions Antipas as the killer of the Bethlehem children (!) and the Chaldeans as the Magi, Origen mocks Celcius's ignorance about...... the Chaldeans!!!! He completely overlooks the incorrect Herod, and thus the incorrect dates for the killing of the children, AND he mistakes the provinces that Antipas had control of. Only twop Herods were Tetrarchs, neither one being Herod-the-Great their father, nor Archelaus who ruled half of all after Herod's death. See here:-

    BOOK ONE
    Chapter 58
    After these matters this Jew of Celsus, instead of the Magi mentioned in the Gospel, says that Chaldeans are spoken of by Jesus as having been induced to come to him at his birth, and to worship him while yet an infant as a God, and to have made this known to Herod the tetrarch; and that the latter sent and slew all the infants that had been born about the same time, thinking that in this way he would ensure his death among the others; and that he was led to do this through fear that, if Jesus lived to a sufficient age, he would obtain the throne. See now in this instance the blunder of one who cannot distinguish between Magi and Chaldeans, nor perceive that what they profess is different, and so has falsified the Gospel narrative. I know not, moreover, why he has passed by in silence the cause which led the Magi to come, and why he has not stated, according to the scriptural account, that it was a star seen by them in the east. Let us see now what answer we have to make to these statements. The star that was seen in the
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for you, I think you need to be informed of their arguments and know why they aren't true. I don't know, but when they say if the Earth was billions of years old, then the ocean would be more salty and filled with silt. Also they say dinosaur fossils have been found with soft tissue. How's that possible?
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I'm happy to consider their arguments should they be presented to me. Had @Neb wanted to engage in a meaningful, mutuallly respectful conversation that involved exploring the evidence supporting an old and new earth. that would have been fine.

    Neither of us believe the YECs. Neither of us believe in a literally resurrected Jesus either.
     
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  11. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    When Matthew mentioned the Magi, he obviously intended Chaldeans to be understood. The Chaldeans were the Babylonians, the grand masters of astronomy/astrology in the ancient world. They would have been familiar with Jewish lore since there was still a large Jewish community in Babylon. It would be obvious to any reasonably knowledgeable person of the 1st century or even later that Matthew’s Magi were intended to be Chaldeans. It is Origen that is ignorant here, not Matthew.

    Origen was also ignorant about the different Herod’s. Herod Antipater aka Antipas was a son of Herod the Great. Antipas was the tetrarch who had John the Baptist executed. This was when Jesus was already grown. See Matthew 14:1-12. In Matthew 2 it is Herod the Great who is responsible for trying to kill the infant Jesus. This is clear by Archelaus being called Herod’s son in Matthew 2:22.

    Origen is screwed up here, not Celsus. But once again it is plain that Celsus used Matthew as his source.
     
  12. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    You claimed that the Gospels were changed by Christians after having been written. Which parts were changed, in what way were they changed, and how do you know this? Back up your claim or retract it.

    I know the Gospels and their backgrounds cold. I can see why they were written at all, and why they were written the way they were and the interactions between them and with other writings of the era. I do not see that you know very much about them at all, other than what can be found in introductory material about them. As I said earlier it is not necessary to believe that the Gospel stories all happened exactly that way to understand how and why they were put together. In fact, assuming that they are literal history can be an obstacle to understanding.
     
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  13. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    The Tyrian shekel and half-shekel stopped being minted around 19 BC. Duplicates were made in secret somewhere in or around Jerusalem until the War. Just how pure and accurate of weight these ‘counterfeits’ really were is a matter of speculation. But tradition is tradition. These coins were common currency in the region. They were also used for the annual Temple Tax, which was separate from purchases made in the Temple both during Festivals and for miscellaneous individual sacrifices throughout the year. (See Luke 2:22-24 for an example) The coins used for both the tax and at the Temple were common currency with the image of the Emperor on them as I previously stated. If they were not common currency, how would the annual Temple Tax get paid? And if they were not common currency, what good would it do the Temple to collect that kind of coin? How would they spend it? Those pilgrims from outside of the general Palestine area might not have that particular type of coin. Remember pilgrims came from all over the Empire and beyond. That is where the moneychangers came in.

    The Tyrian shekel had the Herakles-Melqart Eagle on the reverse. As you said, Melqart is the Baal mentioned in the OT, who had been syncretized with Herakles when the region was Hellenized.

    A related topic:

    In Matthew 17:24-27, there is the discussion of whether to pay the tribute tax. Jesus says that the money for the tribute will be found in the mouth of a fish. The KV translates this as “a piece of money”. The Greek word Matthew uses is staterThis is a silver coin equal in value to a shekel, but is a different coin, of Greek origin.

    Matthew wrote around 80 AD or so. At that time, the Temple Tax was still being collected from Jews by the Romans but it was not going to the no longer existing Temple. Instead it was war reparations. The tribute was not required to be paid only in Tyrian coins, as the Romans were not interested in tradition but value. Anyway, the Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were no longer being minted anywhere and the Temple treasury was raided by the Romans in 66 AD, a significant factor in starting the War.

    The above passage about paying tribute takes on a rather different meaning when it is understood that Matthew is talking about whether it is appropriate to pay the ‘Temple Tax’ to the Romans and not to the Temple.

    In Matthew 22:17-21, Matthew has Jesus again address the issue of paying tribute. The KJV refers to the associated coin as “a penny”. The Greek word used by Matthew is dēnarion, that is, a denarius. The value of this coin at the time Matthew wrote after the War was about the same as a drachma. See Denarius - Wikipedia Two drachmas was about the same as a shekel. See stater This would make a denarius a half-shekel, the tribute required of each Jew.

    Again, we see the ‘Temple Tax’ having become a war reparation tax paid not to the Temple but to the Romans and paid in whatever currency was convenient, not the Tyrian half-shekel required by the Temple.
     
  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and the Carpenter said......My kingdom is not of this world
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Which is what was offered. The kingdom is not of this world, but now we know it is around us all the time. Christ come in The Glory of God, is, too all of us, just one heart beat away.

    Jesus the Christ also said he would Come like a Thief in the night, too which Christ did indeed do.

    Regards Tony
     
    #795 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  16. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    the kingdom is not all around us
    it is written.....
    the kingdom of heaven is within you

    and that last heartbeat will put you .....at the Door
    naked
    gathering your 'self' .....you will raise your hand to knock of the Door

    a voice behind you will say......
    To knock on that Door is betrayal to me!

    Some of us will panic and throw ourselves unto the Door
    Some of us will try to remain calm.....either way.....
    you will raise your hand a second time.....and again that voice

    Oh yeah! as it is written!......knock and the Door will open
    and they will let you in!

    But won't they look you over?......as they did Me
    and won't they throw you out????......as they did Me

    and then you will deal with Me!!!
    traitor......


    just and idea I've been living with for a long time
     
    #796 Thief, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  17. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Are you talking about the t-rex they've found in Montana said to be 70 millions years of age? How they figured out the age? Soft tissues are datable with 14C dating method. A half-life of Carbon is 5730 years.
     
  18. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    How do you explain John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
     
  19. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    How can I reason, i.e., show you proof or evidence, if I can’t argue or convince you of this evidence or proof?

    Your premise, "Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection" needs answers and the only place I can get them is from the bible where it literally says, Christ, manifested in the flesh. This is my proposition or argument based on your premise.

    If you call this an argument between two religions as wrong then, why start an argument? If the word argument has a negative meaning or connotation in your mind then we should consider arguing as a form of a positive conversation between us based on your premise or let’s call it a debate.
     
  20. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Soft tissues are datable with 14C dating method. A half-life of Carbon is 5730 years. If tested with 14C and found out that it was indeed less than 10,000 years then all those millions of years or billions of years would be in question, right?
     
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