Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[RESOLUTION]

Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

For such a belief to exist 2,000 years after it took place then Christ had to have rose from the dead.
The miracles and changes that ensued give credence to the actuality but at the end of the day every man must choose for himself what he believes and the basis for that belief.

 

[RESOLUTION]

A perfect reflection of something makes it one and the same. If Jesus has all the divine attributes of God, wouldn't that in itself make him God? So yes, Jesus is God.

I would disagree with you Beth. Doesn't John in his letters state clearly that Christ came in the flesh?
Jesus himself said: " My words are Spirit and they are life". Jesus divine in nature so reveals God to us. Fully human and fully divine in nature.
But we cannot change that as a Messiah he would be the final word from God. Christ never did away with God the Father in fact he tells us
if we do not love God first with all our heart we cannot love him.

The Jews never believed God would come in flesh. They believed their Messiah would be a Prophet like unto Moses.
Jesus even said " The works I do are not of myself, God does his own works through me."
In Acts 7 we see Stephen look up into heaven empowered by Gods Holy Spirit and see the Son of God Jesus stood on the right hand side of God.

Jesus like Adam was born by the Word of God. Both had God for their physical Father the Word made flesh.
Adam spoke into being formed from the soil and Gods own breath breathed into him. Jesus promised and born of a virgin the word made flesh.

This is the way, I see the truth in Jesus Christ. He never made himself equal to God, he made himself the servant of God and told others to do like wise.

I would be interested in anything you might like to add.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Nobody can know for sure.

A wise answer and gently said.

 

[oldbadger]

I thought John had been arrested because, he had taken upon himself to bitterly criticize the wife of Herod who was married to his brother.

No, he was arrested and taken to Perea. Antipas enjoyed speaking with John, but John's criticism of Philip's wife's new union with Antipas no doubt was the cause of his death.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Only John, IIRC, has the detail that water poured out of the side wound. Using this detail (though it's hardly the only explanation available with or without it), I imagine Jesus had a pre-existing medical issue (with the water detail, it could be some fluid overload disorder like congestive heart failure or pleural effusion (the lungs are filling/surrounded by fluid) and spearing him fixed it, but by that point he fainted and they thought he was dead, so they put him in a tomb (we wouldn't have this discussion had they buried him, right?), and three days later he recovered and fled the area.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You err for not knowing the Scriptures that is the Word of God. You read the texts under the spell of Christian preconceived notions in the hope to promote resurrection in order to enhance the Christian claim that Jesus resurrected. Both cases, the one of Elijah and that of Elisha are one and the same if you focus on the details of how both prophets effected the recovery of the breath of life of both boys. Only in the case of Elisha, the struggle to recover the breath of life was caused as a result of the time the boy spent in the field with his father, which was probably a very hot day in the Summer. Both prophets were effecting resuscitation as a result of sunstrokes. To understand it so, you must compare with the process of resuscitation today if you add the paraphernalia of the time. Both Elijah and Elisha were chairmen of schools of prophets and they were qua professors on first-aid emergencies. I am sorry if I have rained on your parade but you must focus on the Logic of Biblical understanding.

Now, as regards to the throwing of a body over the bones of Elisha, it was so-to-speak a reading of the chronicles of the prophets aka the annals of the prophets as an act of recollection of their memories but embellished to enhance the greatness of the prophet. Elisha with the event of a dead body thrown in his cave and Elijah with his being taken up to heavens in a whirlwind. (II Kings 2:1) All were recorded in the annals of the prophets aka the chronicles of the prophets with all the embellishments to enhance the greatness of the prophets. Now, try to understand according to Logic. How could the body of a prophet of the size of Elisha have been laying there in an open tomb? Not Elisha's I guarantee you.

Well, you didn't get it. And do you know why? Because the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus and he would not teach a gospel of contradictions. His gospel says that once dead, no one would ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)

Did they throw a live body onto Elisha's remains? Is that what you're saying? Is that how we Jews treat the wounded? We pitch them into grave sites? Have you read the Tanakh thusly, where it says, "Oh man of God! For you to visit me only to strike my child on a temporary basis with heat stroke!" Have you read where the Tanakh tells us, "And thus the child lay upon his mother's lap, heatstruck . . . "?

Do the MIGHTY miracles of Elisha, mightiest of most major prophets, involve resuscitation from heat stroke? Is that what you're saying? Did a helicopter fetch Elisha's master to Heaven, or was it a whirlwind and flame?

Did Ha Shem not shut the mouths of lions, give Sarah a child past 90 and Abraham past 100, flood the world with water? Create all in His image and power, by the Word of His mouth? Are the Sun, Moon and stars all His (Psalm 19) or no?

You seem to have a much smaller god than I. Is that a failing of the Christian worldview, do you think?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Abdu'l-Baha passed away in 1921. The land at that stage was called Palestine not Israel. Israel didn't come into existence as a Nation until 1948.

Israel - Wikipedia



What I've written is clear. The point is that the Jewish people did not recognise Jesus' Messianic claims as they interpreted their scripture literally, not symbolically.



Go back and read what was written. The author is reflecting on how the Jews would have felt about Jesus' approach to the Sabbath and other claims He made.



It is the Christians, not Baha'is who have demonstrated anti-Semitism through out the centuries. What percentage of Germans were Christian when Hitler was elected? Nearly 95%.

The name of the Jewish homeland isn't Palestine, but Israel.

You clearly are misrepresenting what Jews believe. 1) I'm a Jew who has trusted Christ for salvation. Please don't use universals referring to us and 2) most of the early believers, and the dozen people who wrote the NT, were Jews!

Some of the Jewish people believed Jesus BECAUSE He fulfilled hundreds of literal prophecies. Matthew's gospel cites dozens of such OT prophecies.

Some of the Jewish people disbelieved for the same reason some Gentiles disbelieve. It's hard, sometimes, to respond to a god who calls you out as a sinner. I was once that person, also.

Your claim that the rejection of Christ has to do with some unfulfilled prophecies is skirting the following issues:

1. There are two advents of Messiah in the scriptures. Even the disciples couldn't understand how the Messiah could both die for sin and rule the world forever. The resurrection is the bridge.

2. There are dozens of fulfilled prophecies concerning modern Israel--you can Google them for yourself. There is so much fulfilled prophecy in BOTH testaments, as a matter of fact, that I'm wholly unable to cast off Jesus or change religions. It would be illogical to do so.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where in the NT does it say not to take the resurrection literal? Yet, that's what the Baha'i Faith does. They make it only a "symbolic" resurrection. So what I'd like to know is... what did you Christians do with his body?

The Christians did with His body exactly what you would have done if you were a Christian then, and the tomb was sealed with a four-ton stone, and there was a small cohort of Roman soldiers standing guard, and the ruling religious class called for the excommunication of any Jesus follower upon discovery. The exact . . . same . . . thing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For such a belief to exist 2,000 years after it took place then Christ had to have rose from the dead.
The miracles and changes that ensued give credence to the actuality but at the end of the day every man must choose for himself what he believes and the basis for that belief.

Thank you for your response @RESOLUTION. I believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible as you do. There are problems with this line of argument but I appreciate your sincerity and faith.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You clearly are misrepresenting what Jews believe. 1) I'm a Jew who has trusted Christ for salvation. Please don't use universals referring to us and 2) most of the early believers, and the dozen people who wrote the NT, were Jews!

Thank you for letting me know about your background. Most Jews have not become Christian of course, nor would I expect they are likely to soon. There is an uncomfortable reality that your adopted religion Christianity has treated Jewish people poorly. I believe the Jewish people remains God's chose people and will be the first as a Nation to recognise the second advent of Christ. I also believe God forgave the Jewish people a long time ago. In fact Jesus indicated this (Mark 3:28-30). It is wrong and immoral to hate people because they are a different race. Jesus commanded us to love, forgive, and overlook the faults of others. I would extend that approach to peoples of other faith communities too. Baha'is are asked to consort with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship.

In regards to the Jews rejection of Christ I stand by the words of Abdu'l-Baha as to how many of the Jewish peoples misunderstood their own scripture in regards to the Messiah they were expecting. The main theme of that rejection was a literal understanding of verses that had symbolic or allegorical meaning.

Jesus clearly prophesised the destruction of the Jewish temple and for His follows to flea Judea when the time of tribulation was near. There was emphasis on turn the other cheek rather than rebel against the Romans leading to the destruction of Jerusalem. If Jesus had been recognised and His advice followed the diaspora would never have happened.

Some of the Jewish people believed Jesus BECAUSE He fulfilled hundreds of literal prophecies. Matthew's gospel cites dozens of such OT prophecies.

Agreed

Some of the Jewish people disbelieved for the same reason some Gentiles disbelieve. It's hard, sometimes, to respond to a god who calls you out as a sinner. I was once that person, also.

Sure

1. There are two advents of Messiah in the scriptures. Even the disciples couldn't understand how the Messiah could both die for sin and rule the world forever. The resurrection is the bridge.

I agree with the advent of two Messiah's. While we are of course all sinners I find the understanding that many Christians have about exclusive salvation problematic. In fact this approach has contributed to anti-Semitism and atrocities committed against many peoples. You are projecting on to me hatred of Jews that does not exist because its uncomfortable for you to acknowledge the crimes perpetrated by my ancestors who called themselves Christians.

2. There are dozens of fulfilled prophecies concerning modern Israel--you can Google them for yourself. There is so much fulfilled prophecy in BOTH testaments, as a matter of fact, that I'm wholly unable to cast off Jesus or change religions. It would be illogical to do so.

I agree that the establishment of modern Israel represents fulfilment of key prophecies in the bible. I understand why you would feel obliged to remain a Christian and how that might be viewed amongst some of your people. However I would argue that Christianity is a divided body that in many respects has lost sight of Christ.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Thank you for your response @RESOLUTION. I believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible as you do. There are problems with this line of argument but I appreciate your sincerity and faith.

You are most welcome, however, I am intrigued and I am going to ask the question you expected. " What problem do you perceive?"

 

[Ben Avraham]

Did they throw a live body onto Elisha's remains? Is that what you're saying? Is that how we Jews treat the wounded? We pitch them into grave sites? Have you read the Tanakh thusly, where it says, "Oh man of God! For you to visit me only to strike my child on a temporary basis with heat stroke!" Have you read where the Tanakh tells us, "And thus the child lay upon his mother's lap, heatstruck . . ."?Do the MIGHTY miracles of Elisha, mightiest of most major prophets, involve resuscitation from heat stroke? Is that what you're saying? Did a helicopter fetch Elisha's master to Heaven, or was it a whirlwind and flame? Did Ha Shem not shut the mouths of lions, give Sarah a child past 90 and Abraham past 100, flood the world with water? Create all in His image and power, by the Word of His mouth? Are the Sun, Moon and stars all His (Psalm 19) or no? You seem to have a much smaller god than I. Is that a failing of the Christian worldview, do you think?

Perhaps not a live body but a body not totally dead but cataleptic. Someone who has experienced an attack of catalepsy can spend even a day unconscious but still not dead. There has been cases of people who turned in the grave when they woke up and found out they had been buried. Lucky enough for the guy in the chronicles of Elisha who woke up as he was thrown in the cave of Elisha. But, literally, I tell you again, it never happened. The annals of the prophets aka their chronicles were composed of many records that had never happened literally. Only to enhance the great. I have told you already that
the grave of Elisha could not be there open and ready to throw any other body into it. Makes no sense.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The name of the Jewish homeland isn't Palestine, but Israel.
You clearly are misrepresenting what Jews believe. 1) I'm a Jew who has trusted Christ for salvation. Please don't use universals referring to us and 2) most of the early believers, and the dozen people who wrote the NT, were Jews!

Some of the Jewish people believed Jesus BECAUSE He fulfilled hundreds of literal prophecies. Matthew's gospel cites dozens of such OT prophecies.

Some of the Jewish people disbelieved for the same reason some Gentiles disbelieve. It's hard, sometimes, to respond to a god who calls you out as a sinner. I was once that person, also. Your claim that the rejection of Christ has to do with some unfulfilled prophecies is skirting the following issues: 1. There are two advents of Messiah in the scriptures. Even the disciples couldn't understand how the Messiah could both die for sin and rule the world forever. The resurrection is the bridge. 2. There are dozens of fulfilled prophecies concerning modern Israel--you can Google them for yourself. There is so much fulfilled prophecy in BOTH testaments, as a matter of fact, that I'm wholly unable to cast off Jesus or change religions. It would be illogical to do so.

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of literal prophecies! I read the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach every single day and I don't remember a single one of those hundred prophecies you claim. Can you mention a single one to me? Even a single one I have missed. Can you remind me of one. I don't need any more. One is enough. Thanks!

 

[Dawnofhope]

You are most welcome, however, I am intrigued and I am going to ask the question you expected. " What problem do you perceive?"

I think you may be assuming too much. Just because Christianity has prospered I would not assume the truth of the physical resurrection has contributed. What is apparent is the power of the words of Christ to influence hearts of men and bring them from the death of unbelief to spiritual life. That is the reality of Christ for me.

 

[Muffled]

It's by experience not by interpretation of scripture. If you have not experienced communion and resurrection from communion, of course things in the Bible would be symbolic. Though, I don't think many Christians would define their religion as symbolic.

I don't believe I can imagine how anyone could think there is a resurrection from communion other than symbolically of course.

I don't believe experiencing communion will get a person into Heaven. I don't believe that believing the resurrection took place physically can get anyone into Heaven.

 

[Muffled]

Sure there is. Jesus could not be in more than one place at the same time. There were times when He did not know the answser and He said what He could do nothing on His own iniative.

I believe you are talking about the physical body which is only part of Jesus. The other part, the Spirit of God is everywhere.

I believe that is a bogus interpretation of a one time event.

I believe that means He can do everything as God.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of literal prophecies! I read the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach every single day and I don't remember a single one of those hundred prophecies you claim. Can you mention a single one to me? Even a single one I have missed. Can you remind me of one. I don't need any more. One is enough. Thanks!

I believe the temple will be destroyed and the poeple will have to flee Jerusalem are two of them that have been fulfilled.

 

[Muffled]

I think you may be assuming too much. Just because Christianity has prospered I would not assume the truth of the physical resurrection has contributed. What is apparent is the power of the words of Christ to influence hearts of men and bring them from the death of unbelief to spiritual life. That is the reality of Christ for me.

I believe I received Jesus as Lord and Savior because of the resurrection. THe resurrection convinced me that there was a Spirit to receive.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't believe I can imagine how anyone could think there is a resurrection from communion other than symbolically of course.

I don't believe experiencing communion will get a person into Heaven. I don't believe that believing the resurrection took place physically can get anyone into Heaven.

Every Christian experiences it differently. In my experience, it was a literal communion and resurrection. Saying it's anything other than literal is belittling many Christian's experiences that they feel is a fact not a symbol of their salvation.

 

[Muffled]

Every Christian experiences it differently. In my experience, it was a literal communion and resurrection. Saying it's anything other than literal is belittling many Christian's experiences that they feel is a fact not a symbol of their salvation.

I believe you need to explicate the process since I don't see any way for this to happen literally. Are you going to tell me that in the process of taking communion you actually physically died and then physically came to life again?