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Remember the Max? The cost of getting fired is disgustingly lucrative.

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Twilight Hue, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Boeing's ousted CEO departs with $62 million, even without severance pay


    Big Payouts for Getting Fired: Understanding Executive Severance Agreements


    I've been fuming over this practice for a long time and wanted to know.

    Why are executives continually rewarded gargantuan bonuses and wads of cash for being fired for poor performance, yet a common worker gets absolutely nothing except his or her last paycheck in general?

    What's your opinion on this?

    Is this a good thing, or are things rotten in Denmark?
     
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I think it's ludicrous and obscene. Most of us would be content and satisfied for life if we were given 62 million. We have at will employment states were an employee can fires at anytime for any reason and they get nothing. But these wankers get fired and get a bonus of way more money than we'll ever see for not getting fired.
     
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  3. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    In a sense, the most revealing answer to why executives get these big payouts is to found by going back to the year it began, which I recall was sometime in the 1980s, and see if you can come up with a line of inquiry that leads you to the change in a government regulation that openned wide the doors to these things.

    That's what let it happen, I have only forgotten too many of the non-essential details to recall it enough to know how to google it up.



    I probably don't have to add this, but to be sure: The change was an example of what lobbyists can get accomplished while dealing only with bureaucrats -- flying under the radar of the media on any side of the aisle.

    Two things about that. There is no better reason why the Government's Inspectors in General are necessary than for the reason shown here. No one fires an IG for an honest reason that they can't tell the public about.

    Second, this is also an example why you don't want to count yourself safer when you cut the size of government. You are then slashing the Federal Government down to a size where it's as easy for outsiders with money to toy with it as they toy with all but largest state governments. And they certainly toy with even them more than enough.

    Go ahead, if you must. Give me your best shot at telling me why I'm wrong about something that was taught nuts and bolts to me by a professor with years hands on experience working in government and who dealt with lobbyists as a routine part of his job. I'm not really talking here to anyone unlikely to suspect I might know what I'm talking about. Anyone who does know who I'm talking to, should consider checking this stuff out. Very useful to learn in so many ways.

    As a rule, the smaller the government, the more it honestly needs to risk relying on outside help to get some idea of what laws to pass, and what they might do once passed, along with almost every bit of information it must gather to figure out how to turn a law into a set of useful regulations. Imagine what unguarded candy stores small governments seem in the eyes of lobbyists.

    Fun challenge. See if you can back trace the source of any ideas you might have that your freedoms and liberties are safer the smaller your government. Tell me who you find was the source if and when you do.

    Ain't never been a substitute for citizens keeping a sharp eye on their governments. Too bad humans are always too lazy to do something they don't constantly enjoy doing. I think anyone would need to be somewhat like me to even want to try: Scared to death what the histories show can happen when citizens slack off too much from ever trying to get an accurate understanding of who this morning is trying to use their governments to screw them now.

    Life is tough for citizens in a democracy. If that's too much for you, then try being grateful you have more sex than me. Or if that doesn't work, try being grateful you or your closest female friend has never been one of my partners.
     
  4. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    If you say, it is bad, you are a communist and against individual freedom. How? Because you are saying in effect that we as a group have the right to limit the individual freedom of CEOs to get the best deal for themselves individually. You are a danger to individual freedom!!!

    Well, no. You are not a communist, you have just run into the absurd result of letting power people run the common game of all humans to their individual best outcome regardless of how the rest of us view what is fair. :)
     
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  5. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    What we got here is a difference between what reality requires & what you like. Some folks get paid a LOT. Much more than you get paid. The reason is that everyone's labor has a market value. We can try an tinker w/ the law of supply & demand w/ gov't edict but it doesn't work. econ forces are far greater than gov't forces.

    Look, in general the world is good and while there are somethings we can complain about, someone making a lot of money isn't one of them. Making a lot of money is a GOOD thing.
     
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  6. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, the bold one is to simple. There are moral, psychological and economical problems with that, if you look closer.
     
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  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    For public companies, executive pay and other compensation is signed off by shareholders. The problem is that the majority shareholders in many companies are other big companies (especially pension funds). Those shareholder companies are run by their own executives who obviously have no vested interest in pushing back against high executive pay and so it continues to cycle ever upwards. It's difficult to come up with practical ways to address it though.
     
  8. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    With making a lot of money?
     
  9. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yeah, for some parts of the world, I can in effect buy children from their parents and make money off the children. That is one example and yes, it is "OMG, think off the children". :) I can give you more, less extreme, yet still relevant examples.
     
  10. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    What, some kind of "team work"? The vested interest of the institutional investor's CEOs is for they themselves to make a lot of money. If it were possible for a corp to pay their CEO just $3.95 per year then the corp would save a lot of money and the shareholders would be better off --even shareholders who were major institutions.

    It really is possible to hire a CEO for just $3.95 per year, but the quality of leadership ends up being a lot less --so much less that the corps end up being a LOT worse off. So they go for the high price deluxe kind of CEO & they're much better off.
     
  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Only if profit in itself and thus money are good.
     
  12. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    Please help me follow your line of thinking. Are u saying that profit & making money are BAD things? You can't be saying that we'd be better off if they were made illegal are you?
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, money are neither good or bad. Let me explain it to you. Imagine you own 10 billion dollars in assets. You then deposited them all, the legal ownership of the assets, in a bank and ask for a check worth 10 billion dollars written out to you.
    You now have a piece of paper with ink on it. What is that worth of the paper and ink as paper and ink? Not much. Money is nothing in themselves. They are reorientations of something else and money are not things. They are social constructs that allow for certain kinds of human interactions between 2 or more humans, who share the acceptance of money as social constructs.

    The questions are, how did you get the money, what did that involve and what do you do with the money as further behavior?
    Money is nothing in themselves and they are not things. It is the behavior in regards to money that matters as goo or bad.

    Regards
    Mikkel
     
  14. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Your bargaining power is determined by your BATNA.

    Someone who's already wealthy has a better BATNA than someone who will be evicted if they don't get an entry-level job.
     
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  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    My purpose here is asking why CEOs regularly receive lucrative bonuses for being fired and a common worker has none when they get fired.

    I understand contract negotiation, but not the incentive to pay insane rewards out for failure.
     
  16. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Now I get it. Sorry for missing your point. A CEO, which is worth her money, also knows, that it is not certain that she will succeed in all cases. So she requests a sort of personal insurance, should she fail. From her POV it is not certain that she can get another high paying job again and thus she wants an insurance, that if her contract is terminated, she in effect has an unemployment insurance.
     
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  17. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    There's so much there & it's hard to see how this relates to what we're talking about. I said corps want expensive CEOs & you said that works "Only if profit in itself and thus money are good." Now you're saying that money isn't good or bad. Are we still together?
     
  18. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    So that's good isn't it?
     
  19. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Not directly in general, I expect it's mostly subconscious. It's just that most of the people making the decisions aren't going to naturally question whether senior executives should be receiving quite as much as they do (and so remuneration constantly increases year on year) because they're also senior executives and they don't want their shareholders to start asking those questions.

    That's a dishonest fallacy as nobody is talking about that much of a change. We're talking about the differences like $1 million rather than $10 million or linking executive remuneration to actual quality measures across an organisation rather than just short-term financials.

    "It's possible to hire workers for just $1 an hour but the quality of work ends up being a lot less, so much less that the company ends up being a lot worse off. So they go for the "high price" $15 an hour kind of worker and they're much better off."

    Why is your example assumed to be unquestionably true yet the latter is dismissed out of hand? Why do so many CEOs accept ever increasing millions for themselves yet fight tooth and nail to avoid any wage rises for their employees at all. Other than, of course, because they can get away with it, even when they're fired for failing at their job.
     
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  20. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Makes you wonder why this type of safeguard isn't ever extended to the common worker.

    Sure it can be argued that a CEO or executive has highly trained skill sets that makes desirable candidates valuable, but the same can be said for the value of any person working.

    If a CEO does bad then fire them like anyone else and they only collect their last compensation with no reward for failure.

    Heck, with this lucrative 'insurance' a person can actually make a living by simply getting fired and walking away with money to feed you not for one lifetime, but ten lifetimes plus.

    Who pays for all those millions thrown to the wind? The remaining workers do by the labor required to pay such luxurious compensation for doing essentially nothing at all except getting fired.
     
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