Religious Texts as Literature

[THOD]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.

 

[exchemist]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.

Literature can, I supposes, be appreciated just for its style but good literature is, I think, always also read for what it conveys to the reader. People read the bible for what it conveys about how its writers thought about God and the relationship between God and Man. The Christian accepts those ideas, but even non-Christians can find the ideas interesting. Furthermore, European non-religious literature, art and music is suffused with biblical references, making some knowledge of it important for understanding these things.

 

[THOD]

People read the bible for what it conveys about how its writers thought about God and the relationship between God and Man.

Many people believe in the divinity of religious texts and not that they simply convey what people thought about at the time of writing.
The former, I liken to how one reads what they believe to be sacred.
The latter, I liken to how one reads literature.

 

[exchemist]

Many people believe in the divinity of religious texts and not that they simply convey what people thought about at the time of writing.
The former, I liken to how one reads what they believe to be sacred.
The latter, I liken to how one reads literature.

Yes, I understand that. But the two are not mutually exclusive. Many people with religious belief also read the bible, or other scriptures, with an awareness of how they would have been conditioned by the ideas of the time at which they were written.

 

[rosends]

I took a class in college which involved reading biblical texts as literature. I had a lot of trouble with it because it limited understanding to the literal text and my religious perspective infuses the text with contextual (and theological) meaning.

It is possible (and quite common) to read even a divine text for literary DEVICE, that is methodologically, how does the divine author convey meaning using stylistic elements which we recognize as having literary value (the use of chiasmus, metonymy or rhyme as examples), but to look at the characters and "plot" as human then asks us to judge an ancient text by current literary standards. Even when I read other religions' texts, there were limits on the literary approach. We most dealt with basics of story and action, not expecting the overall piece to hold to the standards we might apply to a more modern selection.

 

[exchemist]

I took a class in college which involved reading biblical texts as literature. I had a lot of trouble with it because it limited understanding to the literal text and my religious perspective infuses the text with contextual (and theological) meaning.

It is possible (and quite common) to read even a divine text for literary DEVICE, that is methodologically, how does the divine author convey meaning using stylistic elements which we recognize as having literary value (the use of chiasmus, metonymy or rhyme as examples), but to look at the characters and "plot" as human then asks us to judge an ancient text by current literary standards. Even when I read other religions' texts, there were limits on the literary approach. We most dealt with basics of story and action, not expecting the overall piece to hold to the standards we might apply to a more modern selection.

Yes one definitely needs to understand and recognise literary devices when reading scripture. Scripture is not written like an instruction manual, after all. If it were, it would be so dull that nobody would bother with it, nobody would remember what it says and and it would not have become influential. That's why it is written as literature.

 

[THOD]

Yes, I understand that. But the two are not mutually exclusive. Many people with religious belief also read the bible, or other scriptures, with an awareness of how they would have been conditioned by the ideas of the time at which they were written.

Okay, and I agree.
I was hoping for posters to elaborate on their own experiences, but perhaps my usage of "anyone" in the op made it sound like I was inquiring more generally instead of personally.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.

I definitely read the Bible in the context of both religious teachings as a part of the evolving spiritual nature of humanity, but also read it as literature, and as set in history like many other ancient literature.

For example the moral and ethical stories concerning the weaknesses and strengths of the nature of being human in Greek epics has a similar pattern as the stories in Job, and the life of David. These stories are set in history using historical figures and events, but not necessarily factual history.

 

[THOD]

I took a class in college which involved reading biblical texts as literature. I had a lot of trouble with it because it limited understanding to the literal text and my religious perspective infuses the text with contextual (and theological) meaning.

It is possible (and quite common) to read even a divine text for literary DEVICE, that is methodologically, how does the divine author convey meaning using stylistic elements which we recognize as having literary value (the use of chiasmus, metonymy or rhyme as examples), but to look at the characters and "plot" as human then asks us to judge an ancient text by current literary standards. Even when I read other religions' texts, there were limits on the literary approach. We most dealt with basics of story and action, not expecting the overall piece to hold to the standards we might apply to a more modern selection.

Well, literature illuminates some aspect of the human condition.
And I would argue that religious texts also illuminate some aspect of the human condition, though oftentimes with relation to a concept of divinity.
So, in that sense, I think quite a lot of religious texts are considered literature.

Also, in the Abrahamic idea that man is created in the image of God, and God is the creator, couldn't the beauty of using literary devices be viewed as a reflection of the creator, thus not simply being devices for their own sake?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I view all religious text as human product.

 

[rosends]

Well, literature illuminates some aspect of the human condition.
And I would argue that religious texts also illuminate some aspect of the human condition, though oftentimes with relation to a concept of divinity.
So, in that sense, I think quite a lot of religious texts are considered literature.

Also, in the Abrahamic idea that man is created in the image of God, and God is the creator, couldn't the beauty of using literary devices be viewed as a reflection of the creator, thus not simply being devices for their own sake?

Literature as an end vs. literary-ness as a means is an important distinction. Something's being literary, and in that sense, literature might be different from seeing something only as a human literary endeavor.

I wouldn't say that the devices are for their own sake -- they are a template for and a reflection of man's world, as extensions of "God's consciousness" in a sense.

 

[THOD]

I definitely read the Bible in the context of both religious teachings as a part of the evolving spiritual nature of humanity, but also read it as literature, and as set in history like many other ancient literature.

For example the moral and ethical stories concerning the weaknesses and strengths of the nature of being human in Greek epics has a similar pattern as the stories in Job, and the life of David. These stories are set in history using historical figures and events, but not necessarily factual history.

Though you find parallels between some biblical texts and Greek myths, the biblical texts alone carry spiritual weight for you?

 

[blü 2]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

If you're going to read the Christian bible for its literary value, then the versions based on the original King James are the most literary, in the sense that the original continued and polished an earlier English tradition designed to be read aloud in church, and so has rolling cadences, good for whispering or thundering, and elegant along the flat. It's vastly more readable than the Latin (Vulgate), French, German and Italian versions, which are all dull or duller as literature. The same tradition is found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. They no longer use the Commination, cobbled together from bible extracts, but it must have been wonderful fun to thunder at an audience. Stand on a chair, or at the top of the stairs, picture the sea of faithful faces staring up at you, and let 'em have it! ─

Nowe seyng that all they be accursed (as the Prophete David beareth wytnesse) whyche do erre, and go astraye from the commaundementes of God, let us remembring the dreadful judgemente hanginge over our heddes, and beyng always at hande returne unto oure Lorde God, with all contricion and mekenes of hearte, bewailynge and lamenting our synful lyfe, [ac]knowledging and confessing our offences, and sekynge to brynge furth worthie fruictes of penaunce. For nowe is the Axe put unto the roote of the trees, so that every tree which bringeth not furth good fruict, is hewen downe and cast into the fire. It is a fearfull thing to falle into the handes of the lyvinge God: he shal poure doune raine upon the synners, Snares, fyre, and brimstone, storme and tempeste, thys shalbe their portion to drincke. For lo, the Lorde is comen out of his place, to visite the wickednesse of suche as dwel upon the earth. But who may abyde the daye of his comming? Who shalbe able to endure, when he apereth? His fanne is in his hande, and he wyll pourge hys floore, and gather his wheate into the barne, but he wyl burne the chaffe with unquenchable fyre. The daye of the Lord commeth as a thefe upon the night, and when men shall saye peace, and all thinges are saufe, then shal soubdenly destruction come upon them, as sorowe commeth uppon a woman travailyng with childe, and they shall not escape. Then shall appeare the wrathe of God in the day of vengeance, which obstinate sinners, throughe the stubburnnes of theyr hearte, have heaped unto them selfe, whyche despysed the goodnes, pacyence, and longe sufferaunce of God, when he called them continually to repentaunce. Then shall they call upon me, sayeth the Lorde, but I wyll not heare: they shall seke me early, but they shall not fynde me: and that because they hated knowledge, and receyved not the feare of the Lorde, but abhorred my counsail, and dispised my correcyon, then shall it be to late to knocke, when the dore shalbe shutte, and to late to crye for mercye, when it is the tyme of Justice. O terryble voyce of most just judgement, whiche shalbe pronounced upon them, when it shalbe sayde unto them: Go, ye cursed, into the fyre everlastynge, whyche is prepared for the devill and hys Aungeles ...​

And so on through the other two thirds.

 

[shunyadragon]

Though you find parallels between some biblical texts and Greek myths, the biblical texts alone carry spiritual weight for you?

I consider 'spiritual weight?' a separate issue. I am addressing the consideration of studying the Bible as literature in response to this thread. I do study all the scriptures and writings of the world as literature, in the context of history, and spiritual weight.

 

[Estro Felino]

So many people do.
Historians, philologists, translators study the Bible from a scientific point of view. So from the point of view of literature and history.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.

Yes. When I read texts, I read them for their literary value or writing quality and with imagination and an artistic and creative outlook and eye, and also for their potential spiritual value and philosophical value or ability to inspire the mind and even inspire or motivate the adoption of certain appearances, behaviors, practices, whatever. I view all writing in the same way and try to extract the same sort of things out of all of it (which is as much as I possibly can in every way that I possibly can).

I find the text of the game booklets of Warhammer to be pretty spiritual and religious in nature often, particularly when they involve the things to do with "Chaos", and similarly, things from Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos are very attractive and useful to me and which I use in ways that are serious and made to be true and in accordance with my beliefs and the present reality apparent to all.

I also parse and extract whatever I can in such serious ways from every detail of auditory-visual productions such as Music Videos, and things which people might find ridiculous and mundane and "just for entertainment" which I think is a wasteful way of dealing with materials which can (using our own intelligence) be used for so much more and lots of value can be derived from it and a creative mind that is bent towards making things all the more valuable and useful and inspiring for oneself. I think most people are missing out, and I take great pleasure in these practices.

Similarly, I view the writing from anyone, such as yourself, to be almost (or entirely) "oracular" in nature, being produced by a higher power outside of your direct knowledge or at least control, which is ultimately and immediately responsible for my experience (which is including your writing right now as well as what it prompted in me to write and think about, all of which I credit to the One Ultimate Power responsible for this moment and this moment of experience and those supposedly before and expected after).

I take almost all the scriptures for everything I can, but there are some (which I still use and try to extract from) which I find almost unbearable and very unpleasant to interact with (just as some substances or experiences may be unpleasant and one finds that the unpleasantness might even outweigh, in their feelings and memories at least, anything of value they may have extracted from it knowingly or unknowingly).

Many of my interactions with people, and some texts or writing, give me this adverse sort of reaction of total revulsion and hatred. The use of what I deem bad though, is to realize that it does this and why it might do this and also develop from it what would be opposite of it or not do such or "if only it had said/shown" whatever else, and so it can inspire what is better and thus be of value in that way also.

In my Tastes and Preferences thread, I mentioned some scriptures, all of which I have read and studied and which I've parsed and extracted lots of inspiration and quotes and names or epithets of God from, which is often what I'm searching through them for or my reason for reading them. I consider them all really made by The Power, as much as Moby Dick or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde or whatever. My way of viewing the world is that it is a constant communication from The God in everything, through everything, in every way, constantly, without pause or anything from anywhere else or "Other" than that One.

My favorite spiritual text or religious text is the Qur'an, only for its clarity (in saying what I want it to say or ease in making it say what I want it to say), and message (as well as my success using it almost magically by opening it anywhere, but I've had good experiences with many texts, like Buddhist and Hindu texts). It has the highest literary quality and enjoyment factor for me as well, both in its English translations and its original rhyming and rhythmic Arabic recitation which is just profound to hear it and see what it is saying in English translation while basically singing, Wow (see Mishary's recital for some of the most beautiful available online).

I am very fond though of using thoughts, symbols, and ideas from the Vikings, Aztecs, Irish, Japanese, Mesopotamians/Akkadians, Greeks, Romans, and to a lesser degree perhaps, the Chinese, the Native Americans who are not Uto-Aztecan, and many others.

I am completely immersed in mythology, symbolism, spirituality, philosophy, and overall "art" and inspiring and stimulating materials.

I believe wholly in Poseidon, but not as a bearded man made of water or living in the sea (a barely inspiring or creative and mostly fruitless idea if anyone thinks that way, though it is impressive perhaps if people can be inspired by something which seems to me to be so dull and idiotic), but as the Truth trying to explain or describe God's connection to and control of the creation of water, what it does, where it goes, both in reality and nature, as well as philosophically and symbolically as a reference to something else or its other qualities or understood more abstractly and made to apply to many things, such as water's association with knowledge, with terms such as "ocean of knowledge".

All the "gods" are True mainly, as I understand them and make them to be, and completely "prove-able" and apparent, and in accordance with or matched up to Reality and what can be known, and are all One in my view (regardless of how people try to separate every little thing in life and reality by taking every word as a different intelligence or lifeform or whatever).

So my belief in and devotion to Tezcatlipoca and Tlaloc is total, I do not separate these except that I acknowledge that one is typically used to bring up some set of ideas while another is brought up perhaps to bring to mind some other set of ideas, even though these are both the same "Person" being referred to, just different powers, aspects, and epithets of this One Ultimate Power and Intelligence, and the same goes for Warhammer and its "Khorne, Nergal, Slaanesh, Tzeentch" or whatever, maybe I mispelled something, but anyway, I consider these all, even though they are literary fictions that are part of a game invented in the 80's or something (I don't know the history too well), they can be made to refer to real things, this reality, aspects of real things, qualities of the real One Power that is Chaos. That doesn't mean that the whole idea or theology written about them (that they are thoughts made by people that have taken on their own life) is an idea I subscribe to, because in my view, God exists before human thoughts and is responsible for all human thoughts, and is even the author of these "games" which may be subtly or overtly communicating messages which can be understood in more useless and false ways, and better ways that are in accordance with logic, reason, and the truth.

So Khorne is real, Nergal is real, Slaanesh is real, Tzeentch are real, they refer to real things that we can demonstrate and discuss, they can even be prayed to and one may receive what appear to be results or responses, even though these are all inspired by fictions from a game that I've never even played really.

There appear to be 6 or 7 aspects of God that have frequently appeared throughout history which seem to involve a number of things which keep appearing in combination with them.

1. Air, Force, Power, Chieftainship, Might, Planet Jupiter
2. Water, Knowledge, Information, Overwhelming, Wisdom, The Moon (and now also blue Neptune)
3. Earth, Legacy, Death, Judgment, Planet Saturn and The Earth (and now also Pluto)
4. Fire (Ionized Gas/Plasma/Electricity), Industry, Communication, Trade, The Liminal, Transformation, Speed, Travel, Change, Planet Mercury
5. Growth/Development, Ambition, Beauty, Idealism, Ethics, Sex, Caste, Role, Appearance, Vegetation, "Fruits", Planet Venus
6. Destruction/Dissolution, Disease, Healing, The Truth, Revelation, War, Apocalypse, Music, Striking (including striking notes or pulling cords), Vibrations, Planet Mars
0 or 7. Kingship, Ultimate, Dominion, All Encompassing, Yellow and Black or Gold and Black, The Sun (maybe Uranus now too)

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

I have not read widely, but what liked the most is 1. a Ramayana in a local language (Ram Charit Manas in Awadhi, Central India) is beautiful when read as literature, and 2. a few essays by Bertrand Russell.

A simple line from Rama Charit Manas: "Bhūkhe bhajan na hoye Gopalā, lele apni kanthi mālā".
O Gopala (Krishna), I cannot sing your praises when I am hungry, you can take back the sacred necklace which I wear in your name and the prayer beeds
(if you want me to pray with empty stomach).

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I have not read widely, but what liked the most is 1. a Ramayana in a local language (Ram Charit Manas in Awadhi, Central India) is beautiful when read as literature, and 2. a few essays by Bertrand Russell.

A simple line from Rama Charit Manas: "Bhūkhe bhajan na hoye Gopalā, lele apni kanthi mālā".
O Gopala (Krishna), I cannot sing your praises when I am hungry, you can take back the sacred necklace which I wear in your name and the prayer beeds
(if you want me to pray with empty stomach).

Great quote, I love it!

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Though you find parallels between some biblical texts and Greek myths, the biblical texts alone carry spiritual weight for you?

Greek material has impacted me more I think (I wasn't the person you asked this question to though).

 

[THOD]

If you're going to read the Christian bible for its literary value, then the versions based on the original King James are the most literary, in the sense that the original continued and polished an earlier English tradition designed to be read aloud in church, and so has rolling cadences, good for whispering or thundering, and elegant along the flat. It's vastly more readable than the Latin (Vulgate), French, German and Italian versions, which are all dull or duller as literature. The same tradition is found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. They no longer use the Commination, cobbled together from bible extracts, but it must have been wonderful fun to thunder at an audience. Stand on a chair, or at the top of the stairs, picture the sea of faithful faces staring up at you, and let 'em have it! ─

I appreciate your insight.
But perhaps because of Protestantism predominating in North America, I have never heard of the "Book of Common Prayer" or the "Commination."
You've piqued my interest, though, especially after a quick online search and finding that many phrases still in use today are from these.
Is there an online source to which I can go to read these texts?