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Religious Texts as Literature

THOD

The House of Death
Yes. When I read texts, I read them for their literary value or writing quality and with imagination and an artistic and creative outlook and eye, and also for their potential spiritual value and philosophical value or ability to inspire the mind and even inspire or motivate the adoption of certain appearances, behaviors, practices, whatever. I view all writing in the same way and try to extract the same sort of things out of all of it (which is as much as I possibly can in every way that I possibly can).

I find the text of the game booklets of Warhammer to be pretty spiritual and religious in nature often, particularly when they involve the things to do with "Chaos", and similarly, things from Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos are very attractive and useful to me and which I use in ways that are serious and made to be true and in accordance with my beliefs and the present reality apparent to all.

I also parse and extract whatever I can in such serious ways from every detail of auditory-visual productions such as Music Videos, and things which people might find ridiculous and mundane and "just for entertainment" which I think is a wasteful way of dealing with materials which can (using our own intelligence) be used for so much more and lots of value can be derived from it and a creative mind that is bent towards making things all the more valuable and useful and inspiring for oneself. I think most people are missing out, and I take great pleasure in these practices.

Similarly, I view the writing from anyone, such as yourself, to be almost (or entirely) "oracular" in nature, being produced by a higher power outside of your direct knowledge or at least control, which is ultimately and immediately responsible for my experience (which is including your writing right now as well as what it prompted in me to write and think about, all of which I credit to the One Ultimate Power responsible for this moment and this moment of experience and those supposedly before and expected after).

I take almost all the scriptures for everything I can, but there are some (which I still use and try to extract from) which I find almost unbearable and very unpleasant to interact with (just as some substances or experiences may be unpleasant and one finds that the unpleasantness might even outweigh, in their feelings and memories at least, anything of value they may have extracted from it knowingly or unknowingly).

Many of my interactions with people, and some texts or writing, give me this adverse sort of reaction of total revulsion and hatred. The use of what I deem bad though, is to realize that it does this and why it might do this and also develop from it what would be opposite of it or not do such or "if only it had said/shown" whatever else, and so it can inspire what is better and thus be of value in that way also.

In my Tastes and Preferences thread, I mentioned some scriptures, all of which I have read and studied and which I've parsed and extracted lots of inspiration and quotes and names or epithets of God from, which is often what I'm searching through them for or my reason for reading them. I consider them all really made by The Power, as much as Moby Dick or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde or whatever. My way of viewing the world is that it is a constant communication from The God in everything, through everything, in every way, constantly, without pause or anything from anywhere else or "Other" than that One.

My favorite spiritual text or religious text is the Qur'an, only for its clarity (in saying what I want it to say or ease in making it say what I want it to say), and message (as well as my success using it almost magically by opening it anywhere, but I've had good experiences with many texts, like Buddhist and Hindu texts). It has the highest literary quality and enjoyment factor for me as well, both in its English translations and its original rhyming and rhythmic Arabic recitation which is just profound to hear it and see what it is saying in English translation while basically singing, Wow (see Mishary's recital for some of the most beautiful available online).

I am very fond though of using thoughts, symbols, and ideas from the Vikings, Aztecs, Irish, Japanese, Mesopotamians/Akkadians, Greeks, Romans, and to a lesser degree perhaps, the Chinese, the Native Americans who are not Uto-Aztecan, and many others.

I am completely immersed in mythology, symbolism, spirituality, philosophy, and overall "art" and inspiring and stimulating materials.

I believe wholly in Poseidon, but not as a bearded man made of water or living in the sea (a barely inspiring or creative and mostly fruitless idea if anyone thinks that way, though it is impressive perhaps if people can be inspired by something which seems to me to be so dull and idiotic), but as the Truth trying to explain or describe God's connection to and control of the creation of water, what it does, where it goes, both in reality and nature, as well as philosophically and symbolically as a reference to something else or its other qualities or understood more abstractly and made to apply to many things, such as water's association with knowledge, with terms such as "ocean of knowledge".

All the "gods" are True mainly, as I understand them and make them to be, and completely "prove-able" and apparent, and in accordance with or matched up to Reality and what can be known, and are all One in my view (regardless of how people try to separate every little thing in life and reality by taking every word as a different intelligence or lifeform or whatever).

So my belief in and devotion to Tezcatlipoca and Tlaloc is total, I do not separate these except that I acknowledge that one is typically used to bring up some set of ideas while another is brought up perhaps to bring to mind some other set of ideas, even though these are both the same "Person" being referred to, just different powers, aspects, and epithets of this One Ultimate Power and Intelligence, and the same goes for Warhammer and its "Khorne, Nergal, Slaanesh, Tzeentch" or whatever, maybe I mispelled something, but anyway, I consider these all, even though they are literary fictions that are part of a game invented in the 80's or something (I don't know the history too well), they can be made to refer to real things, this reality, aspects of real things, qualities of the real One Power that is Chaos. That doesn't mean that the whole idea or theology written about them (that they are thoughts made by people that have taken on their own life) is an idea I subscribe to, because in my view, God exists before human thoughts and is responsible for all human thoughts, and is even the author of these "games" which may be subtly or overtly communicating messages which can be understood in more useless and false ways, and better ways that are in accordance with logic, reason, and the truth.

So Khorne is real, Nergal is real, Slaanesh is real, Tzeentch are real, they refer to real things that we can demonstrate and discuss, they can even be prayed to and one may receive what appear to be results or responses, even though these are all inspired by fictions from a game that I've never even played really.

There appear to be 6 or 7 aspects of God that have frequently appeared throughout history which seem to involve a number of things which keep appearing in combination with them.

1. Air, Force, Power, Chieftainship, Might, Planet Jupiter
2. Water, Knowledge, Information, Overwhelming, Wisdom, The Moon (and now also blue Neptune)
3. Earth, Legacy, Death, Judgment, Planet Saturn and The Earth (and now also Pluto)
4. Fire (Ionized Gas/Plasma/Electricity), Industry, Communication, Trade, The Liminal, Transformation, Speed, Travel, Change, Planet Mercury
5. Growth/Development, Ambition, Beauty, Idealism, Ethics, Sex, Caste, Role, Appearance, Vegetation, "Fruits", Planet Venus
6. Destruction/Dissolution, Disease, Healing, The Truth, Revelation, War, Apocalypse, Music, Striking (including striking notes or pulling cords), Vibrations, Planet Mars
0 or 7. Kingship, Ultimate, Dominion, All Encompassing, Yellow and Black or Gold and Black, The Sun (maybe Uranus now too)

This is a really interesting view, and I feel that perhaps we think similarly in some ways, though my language might be different.
What I want to ask about what you've posted is, do you believe all is come from the One or the Power?
As you mentioned, some people might think it's ridiculous to believe that a Warhammer manual can be inspired in this way, which I actually don't think is ridiculous.
But I'd like to take this a step further and inquire if works that detail something horrific like cannibalism or human sacrifice also come from the One.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.
I suppose it depends on how you define “religious texts,” but I certainly enjoy Greek mythology. I also like the Epic of Gilgamesh.
 

THOD

The House of Death
I have not read widely, but what liked the most is 1. a Ramayana in a local language (Ram Charit Manas in Awadhi, Central India) is beautiful when read as literature, and 2. a few essays by Bertrand Russell.

A simple line from Rama Charit Manas: "Bhūkhe bhajan na hoye Gopalā, lele apni kanthi mālā".
O Gopala (Krishna), I cannot sing your praises when I am hungry, you can take back the sacred necklace which I wear in your name and the prayer beeds
(if you want me to pray with empty stomach).

Can I ask specifically what essays by Bertrand Russell have impacted you the most?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
All literature requires interpretation. And all interpretation requires some presumption on the part of the interpreter. My point being that it's ALL LITERATURE. It's all interpretive. So that those who choose to believe that a specific text is somehow, by some act of magic, not open to interpretation, are severely deluded. The simple act of reading words on a page is interpretation.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
But if we assume a text is divine, then it can employ literary elements but still rise above the title of "literature." If we consign it to a human mind and hand then we can ask about intentionality vs. some other motivation (including capriciousness) and point out contradictions that a divine text would not be guilty of.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Can I ask specifically what essays by Bertrand Russell have impacted you the most?
Oh, that was ages ago (half a century, a small book of some 15 essays), but I remember one which wanted to let gold remain in ground and do business as if it has been mined. Bertrand Russell was partly a reason for my finally becoming an atheist.
 

THOD

The House of Death
All literature requires interpretation. And all interpretation requires some presumption on the part of the interpreter. My point being that it's ALL LITERATURE. It's all interpretive. So that those who choose to believe that a specific text is somehow, by some act of magic, not open to interpretation, are severely deluded. The simple act of reading words on a page is interpretation.

This is what I always found amusing about protestantism--that it is taught that the Christian Bible is infallible, yet there are dozens upon dozens of different denominations because there are so many interpretations.
What good is an infallible text if those who interpret it are, themselves, fallible?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

LIke @rosends I took a college course that involved reading the KJV Bible as literature. I came to appreciate it at that level and find modern versions "flat" without the poetry even if they are more accurate translations in part.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Yes. Typically for me these have been stories which are retelling of themes common in religion such as a savior/Christ/Avatar and a longed for New Humanity/Heaven on Earth/...

Some like Chronicles of Narnia and The Great Divorce are written from a religious perspective which is clearly visible.

Some others include Zenna Henderon's "People" stories “In any age when people pervert goodness, love, and obedience and set up a god small enough to fit their shrunken souls...Anything is evil,...It lies on the other side of the line you draw around what you will accept as good. Some people's lines are awfully narrow.”
― Zenna Henderson, The People: No Different Flesh

Another is "Cordwainer Smith"'s "The Rediscovery of Man" has a retelling of the story which in the West is attributed to Christ but applies in other cultures as well: “Joan commented, upon sentence, "My body is your property, but my love is not. My love is my own, and I shall love you fiercely while you kill me.”

There have also been short stories such as "A Man Named Saul" in "Man-Kzin Wars XIV" which has an obvious tie-back to the NT.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I appreciate your insight.
But perhaps because of Protestantism predominating in North America, I have never heard of the "Book of Common Prayer" or the "Commination."
You've piqued my interest, though, especially after a quick online search and finding that many phrases still in use today are from these.
Is there an online source to which I can go to read these texts?
You can read a facsimile of the King James Bible 1606 here (the "Geneva bible") ─ it opens with the texts of Anglican services which are in effect the Book of Common Prayer first edition (the Commination is on page 38, by the display numbering to the right of the slider). The rest is the usual bible.

Old typefaces and spelling become less opaque with practice, but for the bible itself, if you get tired of them, any modern edition based on the KJV will serve. My habit is to use the Revised Standard Version (RSV) 1952 (because I own an annotated one), though that has since been updated ─ the New Revised Standard Version 1989 (Bart Ehrman's preference for theological study too ─ he also dislikes the NIV for being tendentious) and the English Standard Version 2001. There's one called the New King James Version but I've never looked into it.

Hunt around the net ─ there's a lot of material out there.
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.

Depends on which religious texts and what their function are as texts. Leaving aside your comment on belief (as there is one in particular I strongly "believe" in, and the rest I respect and love on varying levels):


Things like half of the Tanakh ("old testament") and the Four 'gospels' (according to) in the NT, can all be read in a fictional manner, for the most part, as they are written as narratives (historical or not).
Things like the Ketuvim can be read likewise as literature, as they are literally considered "Wisdom literature" (by Jews at least, since Christians are usually literalists and can't distinguish between styles, lol).

As for other types of religious texts. Only certain Surahs of the Qur'an, like the Surah of Joseph, could be potentially read in such a manner, but the Qur'an is too much of a direct conversation and debate with the reader, as well as an immersive supplicative basis, for such literary use to be possible (seeing also that the Qur'an is truly not a 'story' book and only contains fragmentary bits of stories that serve doctrinal and argument purposes). Though the Qur'an has literary features, such as it's poetic eloquence (which explicitly not being poetry itself). So the Qur'an is a paradox in regards to literature.
Also in terms of Islam, however I would say that the Seerah of Prophet Muhammad (which not unanimous) could also be potentially taken in such a way, seeing that things are compiled in a chronological narrative way.

As for other religous texts. Poetic qualities are common, seeing that so many religious texts outside of the Abrahamic religions are of a hymn-esque quality.
The Vedas, Guru Granth Sahib, the Gathas and so forth all being supplicative with doctrinal aspects, and occasionally polemical tones. They are not entertaining though.

Aside from those, what we often find in the Dharmic religions is philosophical treaties, instructional texts and debates. Upanishads for instance are not much help if you're looking to be entertained, but if you're doing some serious spiritiual work then they may be of help, for instance.
Buddhist texts are usually not very entertaining either in a literary sense (there are exceptions though). Stories in Buddhist texts (whether it be in the Tripitaka or it be Mahayana and Vajrayana texts, i.e. Lotus Sutra, Lankavatara Sutra etc) are usually either just tiny transition passages surrounded by massive philosophical essays (figuratively) or merely just metaphors in conveying something for doctrinal points.

Hinduism though does have a heads-up in a manner that the Bible does, in regards to the Mahabharata (a classic favorite of mine) and the Ramayana. Both of which are massive stories, which also culturally take on similar roles often that the Bible does in terms of media and identity (though not being taken as literally as the Bible).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.
Depends what you mean by "literary value."

The Bible has certainly had an impact on English speech... to the point where it's almost impossible for us today to avoid using figures of speech that were derived from the Bible - whether we realize it or not - but it's not exactly high quality literature.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.
The collected works of Steven Jay Gould come to mind, especially Full House. They changed my perspective on the world do dramatically that it would be fair to call it an epiphany.

Apart from them, The Checklist Manifesto and Structures, Or Why Things Don't Fall Down stand out for me as being especially epiphany-inducing. Possibly some poetry of Robert Burns, too.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
I am curious to know if anyone reads religious texts for their literary value rather than a belief in their divinity.

Inversely, I would also like to know if anyone has read non-religious texts that have affected their life in such a way that it might look like a spiritual or religious change.

Name the texts and expand on your experiences as you please.
when young, it was just a given that I take it [religious texts] as the older people thought about it....
later on, after reading them several times and discovering etymological tool sets, I recognized that there is more to every picture than meets the eye..... which was a significant epiphany since I had taken the relatives and community seriously and was studying to be involved in some manner.....
So I left, and learned a craft, became a finishing stone mason, so as to do something useful....

To me all books are the literature of man...nothing is infallible and certainly no man ever will be....neither any literary works men craft.
Over the years I have come to value the books which explain the mechanics of things, how things work, how to fix them, how they came to be a thing in the first place....and there are too many fields being explored to learn them all well at this point.
 
This is a really interesting view, and I feel that perhaps we think similarly in some ways, though my language might be different.
What I want to ask about what you've posted is, do you believe all is come from the One or the Power?
As you mentioned, some people might think it's ridiculous to believe that a Warhammer manual can be inspired in this way, which I actually don't think is ridiculous.
But I'd like to take this a step further and inquire if works that detail something horrific like cannibalism or human sacrifice also come from the One.

In my view, they do. All comes from the One Power (The One, The Power, they are the same thing when I use the terms, The One Power or One Intelligence Behind Everything has the Power to generate information/experience, so that is what it does, and everything, from the ships sailing on the sea to how they sail and where they sail, what you see, what you see yourself saying, what you see yourself reading, is all generated as your experience that moment and comes from that same One Source, in my belief).

So yeah, horrific things, evil things, wrong things, lies, truth, logic, illogic, propaganda, racism, hate, love, romance, every single letter you read and when you read it and how you read it and what you think about it even is generated that moment as your experience that you are experiencing and basically being made to experience.

The Qur'an for example says "All is from Allah" and "You and your Handiwork", meaning all that people do, make, think, say, everything that they see and experience is generated moment to moment by the One Power, and nothing at all isn't.

So, that doesn't mean The Power is omnibenevolent, that doesn't mean everything is good or right or true or should be followed, because a lot of it is harmful, evil, and crap. So, whatever benefit one can derive one way or another, take it out, and whatever will lead to harm for oneself or those one cares about, avoid it or fight against it if you can.

So, without a doubt (in my mind at least) all the stuff about Cannibalism, all the stuff encouraging it, all the actual cannibalism, the invention of Cannibalism, that people ate people, who ate who and when and where and how, all the pain experienced, all of it, is from The One. Doesn't mean it was good or a good thing or good for anyone involved, doesn't mean it was sane or right, but some novelty horror, created by the Master of Horrors. Similarly, that Cannibalism has become less common and more fought against, is also from The One, all experiences, all histories, all truths, all realities, all that happens moment to moment, and the state we live in and experience in every detail, is being generated right now by The One, so if we look outside, its The One blowing the leaves that way and selecting where we see them land or how they appear to us, and all we are any moment is just a layer of experience, like a photograph, then we are gone and replaced with the next photo and the next photo, generated then eliminated then generated and then eliminated and generated again, and everything in our experience is just made up as part of the experience that moment, like "you reading this right now" or "your finger is here, now it is there" as you type, so "you seeing your finger here, you feeling your finger there".
 
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