Religious People are Not Stupid

[oldbadger]

Thank you again, my friend. We all have a future and a past. We are all literally moving through the space timeline. Think of the timeline as a film strip containing all your past, present, and future events on it. There is nothing predetermined, there is only what was, what is, and what will be on the film. This film will continue to run, even after we are all gone. Even before our sun runs out of fuel, or the Andromeda Galaxy collides with our Galaxy, or getting hit by a gamma ray burst 6,000 light years away, or even by a wayward asteroid, overpopulation will be the immediate threat to our extinction. Just like the other 99.999% of all species that have gone the way of the dinosaurs, ours will certainly be no exception. The end of humanity on Earth is a given.

I do enjoy your posts.
I think that humanity will claw its way into survival for a long time to come, simply because it is tenacious, even if it is reduced to tiny groups of survivors. But the Earth will surely get zapped sooner or later.
I expect that tiny organisms which live and die very quickly probably have a long lifetime by some comparisons. I expect that a Solar system's life of billions of years may seem quite short in some timescales. Maybe our Universe's initiation and termination (bounce?) might be as short as the pulse of an atom by some comparisons. Maybe our Universe is minuscule and short-lived within the order of all. At any rate, the fact that I will sleep beside my lovely wife and two skanky little dachshunds tonight in all this amazing turmoil is a miracle for me to bathe within as long as possible. I tell you this, I won't be wailing in my last breaths (but for pain), I will be thanking my lucky stars for what I have been given. How we ever lived is incredible.......... all those billions of sperm multiplied into those few hundred eggs, only one or two (on average) which made it to this life, and then to meet with my wife who somehow made it as well.......... makes the lottery wins look rather feeble by comparison. My idea of miraculous.

As my father once told me, "We should live for the moment, but prepare for the future, since we will never know just how long that moment will last". These words have served me well for the most part.

I do, and I have done. When I thought (last autumn) that I might have to face my end soon, I made a list of things that had to be done for my wife's continued convenience and security. How could she manage 'this' or handle 'that'... etc. On Thursday 19th October I went straight out and bought the timber for a decent loft staircase (her bad knee can't manage ladders) and it was installed by Saturday 21st. And on from there........... all those jobs were done within a fortnight. Oh yes...... I can plan for the future.

What I call illogical or irrational, is any belief or idea that violates, suspends, or ignores any of the natural laws of nature. A belief in the existence of aliens may be an unlikely belief, but it violates no laws in nature. Therefore it is not irrational or illogical. However, a belief in ghost, spirits, Gods, or anything supernatural or metaphysical, would violate almost every natural law in nature. Therefore it is an illogical and irrational belief. When I speak of the objective reality, I mean the reality that does not require our presence for it to exist. The moon will still exist whether we are there to see it or not. Even if we could "mind-melt" with all living organisms on the planet, we would still see only the tiniest fraction of our objective reality. Of course, this is simply my personal belief, and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

I can acknowledge your personal beliefs and perceptions. But then, for over twenty years our home and driveway has been open and available to travelling evangelists and my agnostic wife makes hot drinks for these folks on cold days and we can acknowledge their beliefs, most strange to us but producing in them some of the most trustworthy people we've ever known. Like you, they find the idea of a healer (esp in kinky leather black boots!) very strange, in their case wicked even, and so you can see how natural scientists can actually touch hands with ardent religions....by chance ........ like a stopped clock still being right every half or full day.
My truth is that it doesn't matter....... Our ducks, cats and dachshunds don't bother about it.......... they just do what they do....... they might give me good advice. If the evangelists are right then I'm in trouble, but I'll just have to cope with all as it comes along.

Death is the state of permanent nonexistence.

Hmmmmm....... but strangely, every single atom will still be around, many finding their way into life-forms...... Most of me will still be alive.

Immortality is not conducive to survival, and violates the natural laws of nature. As you have implied, we have all experienced nonexistence and will experience it again. We had no fear before our existence, yet we do now. I wonder if any other species harbour this same fear, or for the same reasons? Do they also create a Religion to supplant the fear of their mortality? Or, do they simply live in the moment, without the ability to contemplate any non-evolutionary or non-instinctive action?

They live in the moment.
But I won't knock folk's beliefs as long as they don't seek to dominate or oppress others.

IMHO, the only mystery in life is the improbability that we exist within our own timeline. Life is a blessing, a miracle, and an inevitable outcome, all at the same time. Of course, it is usually just taken for granted. True independence is achieved by the reduction of personal stress and insecurity, the enjoyment of friends and relations, and through self-discovery and intellectual enlightenment. The more things that we don't know, the more we tend to depend on those that do. We simply can never know if our religious beliefs are true or false(since we must die first), but we can know why these beliefs CAN'T be true within a 4 dimensional reality. Life is far too short and precious to commit to any belief-based pattern of Pious servitude, without any objective evidence. This IMHO is illogical and counter-intuitive.

OK......... but where a person gives up all and retreats into a shell of existence for meditation and self-denial, may they find peace and completeness in that lifestyle. There are many ways to find contentment and fulfillment I expect. I don't believe that the Intellectual attracts a more fulfilled life than a simpleton, indeed a simpleton is probably more happy and contented. Intellectuals, the few that I know, seem to be so discontented.

Thanks you again.

And thanks to you.

 

[ecco]

That has nothing to do with the myth, or what the myth represents, or the reasoning therein. There are many origin myths from many cultures and many time periods. Each with a somewhat different ideal being represented. Who's origin myth was first is of no consequence. Nor is who first mythologized the original ideal of human nature.

First we were discussing myths being irrational. Then you wanted to discuss the "ideals" that the myths represented with the concept that if the ideal was not irrational, then the myth was not irrational.
Now you want to switch to "who's on first". The myths of Santa and God are irrational, regardless of the "ideals" they were based on.

ecco previously:

Belief in "God's love" or even "God" or "god" is irrational.​

No, it's not. The label and image we apply to the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity is just part of the mythology. The fact of these traits existing within us, remains. And the fact that by allowing these traits to govern our actions toward ourselves and others will result in a better existence for all of us is likewise logical and reasonable for the vast majority of humans.

You want to believe that some beliefs of the supernatural (eg. the existence of God) are rational. Do you also feel that belief in leprechauns and ghosts is rational? What is your basis for choosing which supernatural beliefs are rational?

And you don't get to decide what is rational for everyone else.

I'll await your answer to the above question.

 

[PureX]

First we were discussing myths being irrational. Then you wanted to discuss the "ideals" that the myths represented with the concept that if the ideal was not irrational, then the myth was not irrational.

The 'rationale' for any given myth is that it's a useful means representing an ideal that's common and/or important to the people that generated the myth. The myth of Christ's resurrection, for example, represents the triumph of the divine spirit within us over the fear and meaninglessness of death.

Now you want to switch to "who's on first".

No, it was YOU who was trying too switch the conversation to the subject of who thought of an ideal, first, as a way of delegitimizing the Christian ideal. My response was that it doesn't mater who generated the ideal first, because the purpose of myth is to represent the ideal to the people who generated and used the myth

The myths of Santa and God are irrational, regardless of the "ideals" they were based on.

The Santa myth is a representation of the ideal of giving gifts to those we love and care about as a way of expressing our appreciation for them. Please explain how you think this is not rational. And there is no single God myth, there are many different God myths from many different cultures generated over many centuries. So unless you can pick one and explain why you think the God ideal that a particular myth represents is irrational, then your statement has no substance. Also, the irrationality of one God-ideal does not negate the rationality of all the others. So you have a mighty task ahead of you if you intend to irrationalize all of them.

Belief in "God's love" or even "God" or "god" is irrational.

If you think so, then you should be able to explain WHY you think so. But so far, you have not been able to do this.

You want to believe that some beliefs of the supernatural (eg. the existence of God) are rational. Do you also feel that belief in leprechauns and ghosts is rational? What is your basis for choosing which supernatural beliefs are rational?

Myths are not constrained by natural or historical limitations because they do not represent natural or historical events. They represent metaphysical idealizations about the source and purpose of natural laws, limitations, and events, and so they often depict unnatural and non-historical events as a means of indicating this.

The myths of George Washington throwing a coin across the Potomac River and never telling a lie are not intended to represent historical facts or events about George Washington. They are intended to signify his extraordinary strength and honesty. And unless we are willing and able to understand the ideal that a given myth represents, we will not be able to determine the legitimacy of it's content, or it's current applicability (if there is any). And keep in mind that just because the ideals represented in a myth do not apply to us, now, does not mean that they were irrational in their time. Times and circumstances change the things that we humans need to find rational and legitimate. And they will continue to do so in the future.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I do enjoy your posts.
I think that humanity will claw its way into survival for a long time to come, simply because it is tenacious, even if it is reduced to tiny groups of survivors. But the Earth will surely get zapped sooner or later.
I expect that tiny organisms which live and die very quickly probably have a long lifetime by some comparisons. I expect that a Solar system's life of billions of years may seem quite short in some timescales. Maybe our Universe's initiation and termination (bounce?) might be as short as the pulse of an atom by some comparisons. Maybe our Universe is minuscule and short-lived within the order of all. At any rate, the fact that I will sleep beside my lovely wife and two skanky little dachshunds tonight in all this amazing turmoil is a miracle for me to bathe within as long as possible. I tell you this, I won't be wailing in my last breaths (but for pain), I will be thanking my lucky stars for what I have been given. How we ever lived is incredible.......... all those billions of sperm multiplied into those few hundred eggs, only one or two (on average) which made it to this life, and then to meet with my wife who somehow made it as well.......... makes the lottery wins look rather feeble by comparison. My idea of miraculous.


I do, and I have done. When I thought (last autumn) that I might have to face my end soon, I made a list of things that had to be done for my wife's continued convenience and security. How could she manage 'this' or handle 'that'... etc. On Thursday 19th October I went straight out and bought the timber for a decent loft staircase (her bad knee can't manage ladders) and it was installed by Saturday 21st. And on from there........... all those jobs were done within a fortnight. Oh yes...... I can plan for the future.


I can acknowledge your personal beliefs and perceptions. But then, for over twenty years our home and driveway has been open and available to travelling evangelists and my agnostic wife makes hot drinks for these folks on cold days and we can acknowledge their beliefs, most strange to us but producing in them some of the most trustworthy people we've ever known. Like you, they find the idea of a healer (esp in kinky leather black boots!) very strange, in their case wicked even, and so you can see how natural scientists can actually touch hands with ardent religions....by chance ........ like a stopped clock still being right every half or full day.
My truth is that it doesn't matter....... Our ducks, cats and dachshunds don't bother about it.......... they just do what they do....... they might give me good advice. If the evangelists are right then I'm in trouble, but I'll just have to cope with all as it comes along.


Hmmmmm....... but strangely, every single atom will still be around, many finding their way into life-forms...... Most of me will still be alive.


They live in the moment.
But I won't knock folk's beliefs as long as they don't seek to dominate or oppress others.


OK......... but where a person gives up all and retreats into a shell of existence for meditation and self-denial, may they find peace and completeness in that lifestyle. There are many ways to find contentment and fulfillment I expect. I don't believe that the Intellectual attracts a more fulfilled life than a simpleton, indeed a simpleton is probably more happy and contented. Intellectuals, the few that I know, seem to be so discontented.


And thanks to you.

Thank you for your response. We seem to have many things in common(age, philosophies, health, experiences, family, etc.), that you could even be my doppelganger.

I'm afraid that tenacity is not the word I'd use, after witnessing first hand what humans are capable of when their survival is threatened. I learned that Tribalism, Mob mentality, and "Deindividuation" are not simply abstract terms in a book. Especially, during the fuel crisis scare in '73. Now just imagine what a global resource crisis would cause? But you are correct, just like roaches, there will always be some that will survive. But in the end, no planet, no roaches. If we count all the succession of causes and effects(including the first life), that must had to occur before you could exist today, would have the same odds as winning the lotto everyday, for the next 100,000 years. If we include all the causes and effects that could have prevented your existence, the odds would now be near infinite. In fact it would be hundred's of Billions times more likely, that you could survive a beheading and report to work the next day. So yes, lucky to be alive is the ultimate in understatements.

I believe that the only true healer is yourself. The body is a composite of individual systems and organs. They are genetically controlled and based on cause and effect. In short, our body will heal or correct itself from injury or sickness. That is, until it can no longer do this. If we can consciously control our peripheral and voluntary systems, then theoretically, we should be able to consciously control our visceral and involuntary systems(blood pressure, vegetative, neural, etc.). But, using mysticism and the supernatural as an answer to the unexplained, is where I draw the line. Simply, because these answers create even more questions than they answer. I understand from your perspective, that the cause is irrelevant. From your perspective it is only the effect that is relevant. This is only subjective, I'm afraid.

Hmmmmm....... but strangely, every single atom will still be around, many finding their way into life-forms...... Most of me will still be alive.

I'm afraid that lifeforms are only composed of atoms, just as a chair, a car or a rock. These atoms have nothing to do with any biological system being alive. This requires billions of years of trial and error to become autonomous. Being alive requires a complicated, cooperative, interactive, communication's system of sustainable checks and balances, within the organism. This also requires the input of energy to stave off oxidation and entropy. When we die, entropy wins, and order is restored to the universe. Where some of the atoms and energy go is irrelevant. I'm afraid that none of what was you will be alive. Death is truly permanent, and irreversible.

I agree that people find fulfillment in many ways, and is not limited only to the intellectuals. I can only speak for myself, and have preference this with IMHO. Although I am somewhat limited now, I do all the repairs, maintenance, and construction work on the house, property, and cars. Having knowledge of how man-made and natural phenomena works, allows me more freedom to create and express my true nature(with the wife's permission). This is what gives me fulfillment, and less dependent on what others know. Anyway, that's just me. So thank you an good health ​

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you for your response. We seem to have many things in common(age, philosophies, health, experiences, family, etc.), that you could even be my doppelganger.
I'm afraid that tenacity is not the word I'd use, after witnessing first hand what humans are capable of when their survival is threatened. I learned that Tribalism, Mob mentality, and "Deindividuation" are not simply abstract terms in a book. Especially, during the fuel crisis scare in '73. Now just imagine what a global resource crisis would cause? ​

Thankyou for your posts and kind words. Ah, humanity in any crisis.......... yes. Last year a well known distributor warned that due to some business upset it would not be supplying supermarkets with a particular brand of tea and various other products. That same day I went to do the weekly shopping at our local supermarket, where I noticed and watched a lady loading two selections trolleys full with this same brand of tea. We both went to adjacent tills where I heard the till-operator ask the lady if she knew how many boxes of tea she was buying. 'Why do you want to know!' demanded the lady. 'If I know how many you are buying I can do a multi-scan entry and save you time' replied the till operator. The lady did not know and so a long individual item scan began. Being of an annoying and facetious disposition I called over to the lady, 'You're lucky you got those, 'cos the mad dogs will be in here any time soon, panic-buying everything in sight!'. The lady smiled and said,'I know! Isn't it dreadful? The mob, you know!..... So I thought I'd get a few now before they're all gone!'. Of course they were already all gone. We mostly all seem to have this idea that we are all good people...... it's 'them others'.

you are correct, just like roaches, there will always be some that will survive. But in the end, no planet, no roaches. If we count all the succession of causes and effects(including the first life), that must had to occur before you could exist today, would have the same odds as winning the lotto everyday, for the next 100,000 years. If we include all the causes and effects that could have prevented your existence, the odds would now be near infinite. In fact it would be hundred's of Billions times more likely, that you could survive a beheading and report to work the next day. So yes, lucky to be alive is the ultimate in understatements.

Surely. And so, please let some of us call that a miracle.
How did that Sci-Fi author write about it?...... the beat of a butterfly's wings that altered the fate of the World.

I believe that the only true healer is yourself. The body is a composite of individual systems and organs. They are genetically controlled and based on cause and effect. In short, our body will heal or correct itself from injury or sickness. That is, until it can no longer do this. If we can consciously control our peripheral and voluntary systems, then theoretically, we should be able to consciously control our visceral and involuntary systems(blood pressure, vegetative, neural, etc.). But, using mysticism and the supernatural as an answer to the unexplained, is where I draw the line. Simply, because these answers create even more questions than they answer.

Fair enough......... but I won't draw a line. You see, I wouldn't have the first clue about where this line might be placed, if at all. I don't think we have too many clues about very much. Today we can heavily criticise what we believed was true and what we were doing, say, 200 years ago. I wonder what humans might think about what we believe and do today in 200 years' time, or two thousand years' time if we survive our new inventions.??

I understand from your perspective, that the cause is irrelevant. From your perspective it is only the effect that is relevant. This is only subjective, I'm afraid.

The cause would be interesting, for instance I only discovered last year in November 17' during a BBC News report about 100 Court cases about folks who were disabled in foetal development by their mothers being prescribed with sodium valproate, that my own children must have been disabled thus...... the health service knew about this back in the 70's but witheld such knowledge and my wife died in 1991 still believing that there had to be something wrong with her. I do wish that she had known that it wasn't her. ( I kept telling her that it had to be the males sperm that was undoubtedly the cause but she wouldn't have it). But causes are irrelevant in the present unless they can be used to correct into the future. I do prefer the 'Right.... this is where we're at!' kind of approach......

I'm afraid that lifeforms are only composed of atoms, just as a chair, a car or a rock. These atoms have nothing to do with any biological system being alive. This requires billions of years of trial and error to become autonomous. Being alive requires a complicated, cooperative, interactive, communication's system of sustainable checks and balances, within the organism. This also requires the input of energy to stave off oxidation and entropy. When we die, entropy wins, and order is restored to the universe. Where some of the atoms and energy go is irrelevant. I'm afraid that none of what was you will be alive. Death is truly permanent, and irreversible.

I cannot see that.........
Just atoms...?
Question:- Is our Solar System alive? It looks very much alive to me, as does our Galaxy, and our Universe.
But if I would magnify any atom on the Periodic Table until it would be easily visible I feel sure that I would see that it is very much alive, there is no death anywhere as far as I can perceive, and so I'll not worry too much about dark energy and dark matter either. Like a giant star that has commenced the production of iron and blasts itself into a giant cloud of matter and energy I can only foresee hundreds and thousands of new solar systems being formed........ there is no death anywhere.

I agree that people find fulfillment in many ways, and is not limited only to the intellectuals. I can only speak for myself, and have preference this with IMHO. Although I am somewhat limited now, I do all the repairs, maintenance, and construction work on the house, property, and cars. Having knowledge of how man-made and natural phenomena works, allows me more freedom to create and express my true nature(with the wife's permission). This is what gives me fulfillment, and less dependent on what others know. Anyway, that's just me. So thank you an good health

​

I can do most home-jobs, but you leave me behind if you can work on modern cars........ Once I could do almost any job on a car, could buy high-performance engines from insurance write-offs and fit them into my own cars etc.... but not now....... micro-processors manage everything, so I give up.
Question:- Please to tell us, how do you create and express your true nature (with your wife's permission)? The permission bit suggests high risk...... are you a skydiver, cave-diver or something?

 

[ecco]

You want to believe that some beliefs of the supernatural (eg. the existence of God) are rational. Do you also feel that belief in leprechauns and ghosts is rational? What is your basis for choosing which supernatural beliefs are rational?

Unanswered.

The myth of Christ's resurrection, for example, represents the triumph of the divine spirit within us over the fear and meaninglessness of death.

Yes, it is a myth. Belief in a myth is irrational. Believing a supernatural entity died and was resurrected is irrational.

The Santa myth is a representation of the ideal of giving gifts to those we love and care about as a way of expressing our appreciation for them. Please explain how you think this is not rational.

I've already stated giving gifts (the ideal as you put it) is not irrational. Believing the gifts come from Santa is irrational.

And there is no single God myth, ... Also, the irrationality of one God-ideal does not negate the rationality of all the others. So you have a mighty task ahead of you if you intend to irrationalize all of them.

All gods are the creations of man's imaginings. It is irrational to accept as real, things that are imagined.

Myths are not constrained by natural or historical limitations because they do not represent natural or historical events.

That is because they represent things that are not real - like Santa and gods. Therefore, believing they are real is irrational.

The myths of George Washington throwing a coin across the Potomac River and never telling a lie are not intended to represent historical facts or events about George Washington. They are intended to signify his extraordinary strength and honesty. And unless we are willing and able to understand the ideal that a given myth represents, we will not be able to determine the legitimacy of it's content.

There are myths about real people, there are myths about mythological entities. I can differentiate between them.

Times and circumstances change the things that we humans need to find rational and legitimate. And they will continue to do so in the future.

Believing in the supernatural was, is and always will be irrational.

Irrational synonyms: unreasonable, illogical, groundless, baseless, unfounded, unjustifiable

 

[PureX]

Belief in a myth is irrational. Believing a supernatural entity died and was resurrected is irrational.

Believing that myths are not mythical is irrational, yes.

I've already stated giving gifts (the ideal as you put it) is not irrational. Believing the gifts come from Santa is irrational.

Believing that a mythical representation of an actual ideal is actual reality is both irrational and foolish. I agree.

All gods are the creations of man's imaginings. It is irrational to accept as real, things that are imagined.

Every "thing" you experience and think you know, is an imaginary creation in your mind. There are no "things" in existence. There is only experienced and unexperienced phenomena, being differentiated according to the mechanisms of your mind.

That is because they represent things that are not real - like Santa and gods. Therefore, believing they are real is irrational.

They represent ideas, and ideas are real. Ideas are as real as anything is, because reality itself is an idea.

There are myths about real people, there are myths about mythological entities. I can differentiate between them.

But to do so is to miss the point and purpose of the myth: that is to present you with an ideal.

Believing in the supernatural was, is and always will be irrational.

You have no way of backing such a statement up, and in posing it, you show your naivety.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Thankyou for your posts and kind words. Ah, humanity in any crisis.......... yes. Last year a well known distributor warned that due to some business upset it would not be supplying supermarkets with a particular brand of tea and various other products. That same day I went to do the weekly shopping at our local supermarket, where I noticed and watched a lady loading two selections trolleys full with this same brand of tea. We both went to adjacent tills where I heard the till-operator ask the lady if she knew how many boxes of tea she was buying. 'Why do you want to know!' demanded the lady. 'If I know how many you are buying I can do a multi-scan entry and save you time' replied the till operator. The lady did not know and so a long individual item scan began. Being of an annoying and facetious disposition I called over to the lady, 'You're lucky you got those, 'cos the mad dogs will be in here any time soon, panic-buying everything in sight!'. The lady smiled and said,'I know! Isn't it dreadful? The mob, you know!..... So I thought I'd get a few now before they're all gone!'. Of course they were already all gone. We mostly all seem to have this idea that we are all good people...... it's 'them others'.


Surely. And so, please let some of us call that a miracle.
How did that Sci-Fi author write about it?...... the beat of a butterfly's wings that altered the fate of the World.


Fair enough......... but I won't draw a line. You see, I wouldn't have the first clue about where this line might be placed, if at all. I don't think we have too many clues about very much. Today we can heavily criticise what we believed was true and what we were doing, say, 200 years ago. I wonder what humans might think about what we believe and do today in 200 years' time, or two thousand years' time if we survive our new inventions.??


The cause would be interesting, for instance I only discovered last year in November 17' during a BBC News report about 100 Court cases about folks who were disabled in foetal development by their mothers being prescribed with sodium valproate, that my own children must have been disabled thus...... the health service knew about this back in the 70's but witheld such knowledge and my wife died in 1991 still believing that there had to be something wrong with her. I do wish that she had known that it wasn't her. ( I kept telling her that it had to be the males sperm that was undoubtedly the cause but she wouldn't have it). But causes are irrelevant in the present unless they can be used to correct into the future. I do prefer the 'Right.... this is where we're at!' kind of approach......


I cannot see that.........
Just atoms...?
Question:- Is our Solar System alive? It looks very much alive to me, as does our Galaxy, and our Universe.
But if I would magnify any atom on the Periodic Table until it would be easily visible I feel sure that I would see that it is very much alive, there is no death anywhere as far as I can perceive, and so I'll not worry too much about dark energy and dark matter either. Like a giant star that has commenced the production of iron and blasts itself into a giant cloud of matter and energy I can only foresee hundreds and thousands of new solar systems being formed........ there is no death anywhere.

​

I can do most home-jobs, but you leave me behind if you can work on modern cars........ Once I could do almost any job on a car, could buy high-performance engines from insurance write-offs and fit them into my own cars etc.... but not now....... micro-processors manage everything, so I give up.
Question:- Please to tell us, how do you create and express your true nature (with your wife's permission)? The permission bit suggests high risk...... are you a skydiver, cave-diver or something?

Thank you for sharing, and my heartfelt condolences for your past loss. I was building a shower from the walls up. After putting in the walls, plumbing accessories, and insulations, etc., I wanted to do something to express my true nature. I decided to add to the walls a pebbled finish, to give me the feeling of being in a health spa, than just a regular shower. Unfortunately, only one wall was finally agreed on to avoid a guaranteed trip to the emergency room. Even today I am still reminded of that limitation. These limitations were also applied to the construction of my man-made lake with water features, and my "Tim the tool man type, hyper-techno storage shed. Self-expression will never trump long term psychological warfare. However my man-cave, or "safe house"(as I prefer), is relatively off-limits. My true nature is express over every centimeter of its space. Including the sign posted outside the door, "Only stupid people beyond this point". The "No tidying allowed" sign just wasn't working. Even the local pubs use my "safe house" as the source for their inspiration, I think.

Since no natural laws are violated, I'm afraid that all the factors that have led to being alive, is based entirely on the laws of probability, not supposition. That is, given an infinite amount of possible events, an infinite amount of outcomes are possible. There is a tiny probability that one of your atoms is on the moon right now. The line that I draw is, any belief, idea, thought, or thing, that can't be supported by natural law, inductive and deductive reasoning, or can be tested by any rational or objective method of inquiry. These fall on one side of the line. Those that are supported, will fall on the other side. There are only things that we know, things that we want to know, things that we will know, and things that we can't possibly know. The last category represents those things that are unfalsifiable, and are meant to assuage our ignorance. Forget about what people will think about humans today, 200 years from now. Just ask your own children what they think about floppy discs, typewriters, polaroid cameras, waterbeds, pet rocks, and VHS/VCR, and you will have your answer.

Is the Solar system alive? Are we only a composite of atoms? All biological systems on this planet are composed of cells. Cells are basically a protein-making robots that are too small to feel or experience anything. They have the same properties that we assign to life. But none of these properties are alive. They are only chemical processes, that control other chemical processes, that collectively provide functions. Several million chemical processes each day in fact. Think of a car moving at 100 kph, constantly rebuilding every part of itself, with the stuff that it collect along the way. Again no part of the car is alive, but collectively perform many functions. These parts are simply dead matter(composed of atoms) being moved by the laws of the Universe. So NO, the solar system is not alive, in the sense that it is living. But YES it is certainly dynamic, in the sense that it is always changing. I'm afraid that atoms will never be alive, no matter what the magnification is. Even if you could know their position and speed (which is impossible), these particles would never be alive or sentient. In a chemical sense, there is no death. But in a biological sense, death is certain and permanent. The conservation of energy refers to chemical and biochemical reactions, not to the self-awareness of sentient beings.

Thanks again. It has been my pleasure

 

[ecco]

Every "thing" you experience and think you know, is an imaginary creation in your mind. There are no "things" in existence. There is only experienced and unexperienced phenomena, being differentiated according to the mechanisms of your mind.

Rocks are things in existence. Your head is something in existence. Hold a rock over your head. Let it fall onto your head. You will experience the phenomena of pain. Since you believe that the pain is only an imaginary creation in your mind, you should have no problem doing this over and over.

Please let me know when you have done this fifty times.

They represent ideas, and ideas are real. Ideas are as real as anything is, because reality itself is an idea.

Yes, ideas are real. However, that does not mean that the subject of the ideas are real or realistic. Perhaps you have had an idea that you could jump off a twenty story building and not be injured.

The idea is real. Care to test to see if the subject of the idea is real or realistic?

But, please, do the rock thing first.

But to do so is to miss the point and purpose of the myth: that is to present you with an ideal.

Nonsense. What was the ideal, the purpose, of setting the period of the Winter Solstice as the time of Jesus' birth?

Believing in the supernatural was, is and always will be irrational.

You have no way of backing such a statement up, and in posing it, you show your naivety.

Perhaps you could counter my comment by showing an example of where a supernatural belief was rational.

Black cats? Umm, no.
Friday the 13th? Umm, no.
Atlas carried the heavens on his shoulder? Umm, no.
The earth resides on the back of a turtle carried by an elephant? Umm, no.

 

[Audie]

Rocks are things in existence. Your head is something in existence. Hold a rock over your head. Let it fall onto your head. You will experience the phenomena of pain. Since you believe that the pain is only an imaginary creation in your mind, you should have no problem doing this over and over.

Please let me know when you have done this fifty times.




Yes, ideas are real. However, that does not mean that the subject of the ideas are real or realistic. Perhaps you have had an idea that you could jump off a twenty story building and not be injured.

The idea is real. Care to test to see if the subject of the idea is real or realistic?

But, please, do the rock thing first.


Nonsense. What was the ideal, the purpose, of setting the period of the Winter Solstice as the time of Jesus' birth?






Perhaps you could counter my comment by showing an example of where a supernatural belief was rational.

Black cats? Umm, no.
Friday the 13th? Umm, no.
Atlas carried the heavens on his shoulder? Umm, no.
The earth resides on the back of a turtle carried by an elephant? Umm, no.

Maybe we are being too hard on him.

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you for sharing, and my heartfelt condolences for your past loss. I was building a shower from the walls up. After putting in the walls, plumbing accessories, and insulations, etc., I wanted to do something to express my true nature. I decided to add to the walls a pebbled finish, to give me the feeling of being in a health spa, than just a regular shower. Unfortunately, only one wall was finally agreed on to avoid a guaranteed trip to the emergency room. Even today I am still reminded of that limitation. These limitations were also applied to the construction of my man-made lake with water features, and my "Tim the tool man type, hyper-techno storage shed. Self-expression will never trump long term psychological warfare. However my man-cave, or "safe house"(as I prefer), is relatively off-limits. My true nature is express over every centimeter of its space. Including the sign posted outside the door, "Only stupid people beyond this point". The "No tidying allowed" sign just wasn't working. Even the local pubs use my "safe house" as the source for their inspiration, I think.

My goodness....... the last bastion of a beleaguered male?
Before I drifted in to sleep the other night I decided that with your car maintenance abilities and your need for permissions, then you had to be involved in some kind of motor-racing. Oh well....
There is a retired RSM who lives near me who restores British racing motorcycles. He has Gold-Stars and Velovettes etc, each one a treasure, but his two darlings are Manx-Nortons, a 350 and 500, and these he races at the age of 78.
Pub? You've got Pubs where you are? I thought you would be a Texan, or Oz or something. Pubs......... are you a Brit? I live in Kent, UK.

Since no natural laws are violated, I'm afraid that all the factors that have led to being alive, is based entirely on the laws of probability, not supposition. That is, given an infinite amount of possible events, an infinite amount of outcomes are possible. There is a tiny probability that one of your atoms is on the moon right now. The line that I draw is, any belief, idea, thought, or thing, that can't be supported by natural law, inductive and deductive reasoning, or can be tested by any rational or objective method of inquiry. These fall on one side of the line. Those that are supported, will fall on the other side. There are only things that we know, things that we want to know, things that we will know, and things that we can't possibly know. The last category represents those things that are unfalsifiable, and are meant to assuage our ignorance. Forget about what people will think about humans today, 200 years from now. Just ask your own children what they think about floppy discs, typewriters, polaroid cameras, waterbeds, pet rocks, and VHS/VCR, and you will have your answer.

OK, I get your reasoning, and as I read your proposals so images of Spock keep jumping in to my head, and I keep hearing phrases such as 'life as we know it' and 'OldBadger is not logical' etc......

Is the Solar system alive? Are we only a composite of atoms? All biological systems on this planet are composed of cells. Cells are basically a protein-making robots that are too small to feel or experience anything. They have the same properties that we assign to life. But none of these properties are alive. They are only chemical processes, that control other chemical processes, that collectively provide functions. Several million chemical processes each day in fact. Think of a car moving at 100 kph, constantly rebuilding every part of itself, with the stuff that it collect along the way. Again no part of the car is alive, but collectively perform many functions. These parts are simply dead matter(composed of atoms) being moved by the laws of the Universe. So NO, the solar system is not alive, in the sense that it is living. But YES it is certainly dynamic, in the sense that it is always changing. I'm afraid that atoms will never be alive, no matter what the magnification is. Even if you could know their position and speed (which is impossible), these particles would never be alive or sentient. In a chemical sense, there is no death. But in a biological sense, death is certain and permanent. The conservation of energy refers to chemical and biochemical reactions, not to the self-awareness of sentient beings.

Self-awareness of sentient beings? Whilst life as we know it (Spock!!) might fit our ideas about life, I just happen to perceive life in everything. Hard as that might be to swallow, you would need to get used to that idea before my next bite-sized-chunk which is that there is life (existence) even in the nothingness, the energies....... everything and no-thing.
I don't think that the great mystics, the river-crossers, sages and prophets were all stupid....... not by any means. I think that they could sense the unknowable, untouchable, intangible........ and many of them referred to the nothingness which was also a part of their Gods.

Maybe a Christian can recite John's words which describe God as 'beyond our understanding' which I can't place exactly?

Because I can't perceive (and science mostly refutes), for instance, what that young lady with Gothic makeup and boots can perceive........ should I dump it? I didn't tell you........ On October 16th when she put her hands upon my chest, head etc the heat was more than extraordinary.... it was quite amazing. A couple of weeks later I went back to tell her about myself and she offered healing again...... on this second time, when she touched me with her hands........ there was no heat, nothing that I could feel through T-shirt and jumper. I can understand how such happenings must be experienced personally before they can be considered.

Thanks again. It has been my pleasure

And thanks to you......

 

[Truly Enlightened]

My goodness....... the last bastion of a beleaguered male?
Before I drifted in to sleep the other night I decided that with your car maintenance abilities and your need for permissions, then you had to be involved in some kind of motor-racing. Oh well....
There is a retired RSM who lives near me who restores British racing motorcycles. He has Gold-Stars and Velovettes etc, each one a treasure, but his two darlings are Manx-Nortons, a 350 and 500, and these he races at the age of 78.
Pub? You've got Pubs where you are? I thought you would be a Texan, or Oz or something. Pubs......... are you a Brit? I live in Kent, UK.


OK, I get your reasoning, and as I read your proposals so images of Spock keep jumping in to my head, and I keep hearing phrases such as 'life as we know it' and 'OldBadger is not logical' etc......



Self-awareness of sentient beings? Whilst life as we know it (Spock!!) might fit our ideas about life, I just happen to perceive life in everything. Hard as that might be to swallow, you would need to get used to that idea before my next bite-sized-chunk which is that there is life (existence) even in the nothingness, the energies....... everything and no-thing.
I don't think that the great mystics, the river-crossers, sages and prophets were all stupid....... not by any means. I think that they could sense the unknowable, untouchable, intangible........ and many of them referred to the nothingness which was also a part of their Gods.

Maybe a Christian can recite John's words which describe God as 'beyond our understanding' which I can't place exactly?

Because I can't perceive (and science mostly refutes), for instance, what that young lady with Gothic makeup and boots can perceive........ should I dump it? I didn't tell you........ On October 16th when she put her hands upon my chest, head etc the heat was more than extraordinary.... it was quite amazing. A couple of weeks later I went back to tell her about myself and she offered healing again...... on this second time, when she touched me with her hands........ there was no heat, nothing that I could feel through T-shirt and jumper. I can understand how such happenings must be experienced personally before they can be considered.


And thanks to you......

Thanks again. I'm not a Texan, but we also have a Botany Bay here. I have a completely restored '72 Norton Commando(750cc), and a '61 E-Type Jag Roadster(flat floor) in my safe house. These are my two babies. My car maintenance savvy is now limited to the knowing, not to the doing so much. I've been a "trekkie" since its conception, but I still "come in peace". Even my pizza cutter is a replica of the Starship Enterprise(Excelsior). Of course a retired RSM would still be racing at 78, they're not human like the rest of us.

I think confirmation bias is the enemy of objectivity. Belief and testimonials are not objective evidence, they are subjective. If there were people that could actually heal the sick, see into the future, or speak to the dead, can't you see how having these abilities should have noticeably change the world, "as we know it". This has not happened, unless there is only ONE healer, One clairvoyant, ONE psychic, or ONE person with extrasensory perception, all keeping a low profile. This is similar to a religious belief. Billions of people can believe that a person can be raised from the dead, have a virgin birth, or live forever, even when all evidences demonstrates it can't happen. And, not one bit of evidence demonstrates that it can happen. Go figure. If these things were true, the human race would be instinct by now. No one would die, money would be worthless since everyone would be rich, and all natural resources would be depleted.

I find happiness in the things that I know to be true. Not things that I want or believe to be true. Those things that I can depend on, predict, create, and understand, are what gives me my security and comfort. I accept the nature of existence as my reality, including the circle of life. I don't fear my own mortality, since I have already experienced it before. What I fear is all the events that lead towards mortality.

At the end of the day, what we believe or disbelieve is irrelevant. Its been fun.

 

[PureX]

At the end of the day, what we believe or disbelieve is irrelevant. Its been fun.

Except that as we've acted on these 'beliefs', and actively rejected those others, we have been defining ourselves. We have been becoming what we are to and within the rest of world. And that's certainly relevant to it, even if not to us.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Except that as we've acted on these 'beliefs', and actively rejected those others, we have been defining ourselves. We have been becoming what we are to and within the rest of world. And that's certainly relevant to it, even if not to us.

Who is "we"? Why do you(we) need to define yourself? And, what other beliefs have you rejected?

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks again. I'm not a Texan, but we also have a Botany Bay here. I have a completely restored '72 Norton Commando(750cc), and a '61 E-Type Jag Roadster(flat floor) in my safe house. These are my two babies. My car maintenance savvy is now limited to the knowing, not to the doing so much. I've been a "trekkie" since its conception, but I still "come in peace". Even my pizza cutter is a replica of the Starship Enterprise(Excelsior). Of course a retired RSM would still be racing at 78, they're not human like the rest of us.

72' Norton Commando. They vibrated........ and vibrated..... and shook.... and so Norton mounted the engine on rubber bearers. And so the rider didn't notice the shaking. They still shook themselves crazy, but nobody knew it with those bearers. The E-Type roadsters are the most valuable as I remember.
I have a Fiat Panda, about 37bhp. My wife has a Fiat Panda eleganza 60bhp automatic. Hers has got air-con.... I just open the windows. I have a cheap mountain bike and a little folder, which I ride both all over the place...... keeps me fit.

I think confirmation bias is the enemy of objectivity. Belief and testimonials are not objective evidence, they are subjective.

OK, but Science likes confirmation and testominials of a kind.

If there were people that could actually heal the sick, see into the future, or speak to the dead, can't you see how having these abilities should have noticeably change the world, "as we know it". This has not happened, unless there is only ONE healer, One clairvoyant, ONE psychic, or ONE person with extrasensory perception, all keeping a low profile. This is similar to a religious belief. Billions of people can believe that a person can be raised from the dead, have a virgin birth, or live forever, even when all evidences demonstrates it can't happen. And, not one bit of evidence demonstrates that it can happen. Go figure. If these things were true, the human race would be instinct by now. No one would die, money would be worthless since everyone would be rich, and all natural resources would be depleted.

But you've plumped a whole lot of stuff together there, not connected, really. I believe that there was a Jesus (or Yeshua BarYosef) who supported the Baptist in a mission against Temple and priesthood corruption. Yeah, for sure. I just don't believe in the Christianity that it got turned into later.
And most people that I know have superstitions of one kind or another......

I must finish this later on......

 

[oldbadger]

I find happiness in the things that I know to be true. Not things that I want or believe to be true. Those things that I can depend on, predict, create, and understand, are what gives me my security and comfort. I accept the nature of existence as my reality, including the circle of life. I don't fear my own mortality, since I have already experienced it before. What I fear is all the events that lead towards mortality.

How did you experience your own mortality? The death(s) of loved one(s)?
I don't find much happiness in all the things that I know to be true. Sadly, most sadly, I see humanity as a less than beneficial species for this planet........ I can't think of a species which is wicked, or evil as some might say; all creatures just do what they do. I don't think that a bacteria evolving to survive an antibiotic, thus killing thousands or millions of other creatures is evil..... it just seeks to survive. Or a hobby stooping to snatch a dragon fly, etc..... but some humans, only some of the ones with intellect, now they can be wicked/evil whichever word you prefer. Obviously babies, mentally and IQ disabled are excluded. Human badness produced various needs within society which in turn gave me a livelihood and so now in retirement I just accept the state of the world as it is and enjoy it all regardless. But my Deist beliefs don't offer much reassurance to any who seek it...... My Deity is as unaware of us as I am from one of the hairs on the back of my little right finger. So your ideas don't really fit too closely into my beliefs.

At the end of the day, what we believe or disbelieve is irrelevant. Its been fun.

Fair enough...... I just hope that a high % of folks think it was all worthwhile. Trouble is, wherever I look around I do see quite a lot of miserable unhappy dissatisfied folks at every level of wealth, intellect and security. They all want(ed) more of everything. Me? I need nothing more than we have.

But I do enjoy listening to what most people believe in. There's only one religion that I despise, a very small one at that, and even then its founder was a wonderful person; his religion just got badly distorted.

Does riding that Norton make you smile? The bloody thing shaking itself to pieces must worry you!
Flog it and buy a Goldie!

 

[PureX]

Who is "we"? Why do you(we) need to define yourself? And, what other beliefs have you rejected?

Every choice we make defines us. And every action we take based on those choices effect the world around us. What we believe or don't believe in and of itself is of little consequence. But our beliefs don't exist 'in and of themselves'. They are part and parcel with the way we view ourselves and our relationship with the world. And that drives how we exist in the world. It defined who and what we are in relation to everything and everyone else.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Every choice we make defines us. And every action we take based on those choices effect the world around us. What we believe or don't believe in and of itself is of little consequence. But our beliefs don't exist 'in and of themselves'. They are part and parcel with the way we view ourselves and our relationship with the world. And that drives how we exist in the world. It defined who and what we are in relation to everything and everyone else.

Thank you. I can't disagree that it is our actions, beliefs and decisions that defines our human condition. But what defines our beliefs, actions, and decisions? Indulge me if you will. Our inherited genetic makeup(expression of alleles), provides over 50% of the framework for our five personality dimensions(Neuroticism, Extraversion, Openness, Agreeableness, and Conscientiousness). Over 50% of our personality, beliefs, and behavior, have already been defined by how our genes express themselves(or not express themselves). Of course this doesn't mean that experiences, environmental and social factors do not play a role in the development of our personality traits. However, the basic framework cannot change, it can only be suppressed or altered. In truth, we are defined by the inherited traits we've received through our lineage or pedigree. If you own 60% of the company, then basically what you say goes. This evolutionary genetic diversity, insures that most of the species will survive. We can't have an entire species with alpha males and alpha females traits, or a species with only a single trait, can we?

My point was whether you have the acumens of a saint or a sinner, the mind of a murderer or a genius, or the faculties of a world leader or a crazed despot, at the end of the day the essence of how we are defined, or what we believe in, becomes insignificant and totally irrelevant. There are just no categories of death, that is directly related to how we have lived our life. Unless there is some evidence for this, Occam's razor seems the only rational option.

 

[PureX]

Thank you. I can't disagree that it is our actions, beliefs and decisions that defines our human condition. But what defines our beliefs, actions, and decisions? Indulge me if you will. Our inherited genetic makeup(expression of alleles), provides over 50% of the framework for our five personality dimensions(Neuroticism, Extraversion, Openness, Agreeableness, and Conscientiousness). Over 50% of our personality, beliefs, and behavior, have already been defined by how our genes express themselves(or not express themselves). Of course this doesn't mean that experiences, environmental and social factors do not play a role in the development of our personality traits. However, the basic framework cannot change, it can only be suppressed or altered. In truth, we are defined by the inherited traits we've received through our lineage or pedigree. If you own 60% of the company, then basically what you say goes. This evolutionary genetic diversity, insures that most of the species will survive. We can't have an entire species with alpha males and alpha females traits, or a species with only a single trait, can we?

This is why it's difficult for us to change. But not impossible.

My point was whether you have the acumens of a saint or a sinner, the mind of a murderer or a genius, or the faculties of a world leader or a crazed despot, at the end of the day the essence of how we are defined, or what we believe in, becomes insignificant and totally irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but then so does this 'point' you're making, doesn't it? So does this whole conversation. So does everything ... "in the end". But we are not there, now. We are HERE, now. And we CAN still change. We CAN still matter. We CAN become gloriously significant to ourselves and to others, even if only for the present.

There are just no categories of death, that is directly related to how we have lived our life. Unless there is some evidence for this, Occam's razor seems the only rational option.

No evidence does not become evidence of 'no'. Death is a mystery. It is an 'unknowable unknown'. Honesty would ask us to respect this mystery, not pretend that we have solved it when we have not.

 

[Audie]

Does riding that Norton make you smile? The bloody thing shaking itself to pieces must worry you!
Flog it and buy a Goldie!

I think I'd be best suited to the Black Shadow.