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Religious Freedom Bill passed in Missisippi.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Quatermass, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. Quatermass

    Quatermass Follower of Dagon

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    Mississippi Approves Religious Freedom Bill, Governor Signs It Into Law

    Sad but true news. I have a fist with Phil Bryant's name on it.

    I would put a sign up in my shop saying thus:

    [​IMG]


    Still. It's kind of ironic coming from a state with the highest percentage of downloads of gay pornography in the US.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2014
  2. Quintessence

    Quintessence The Elementalist Staff Member Premium Member

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    Druidic Witch
    The news article you posted is remarkable in its failure to actually describe what the law does. How about we have people look at the actual bill before making any assumptions about what it does or does not say and do. Here, I'll even make it easy for you guys:

    Oh, I'm sorry! I'm supposed to not think critically and have a knee-jerk "OMFGs HOW DARE THEY" reaction by listening to internet hearsay about what this law is and what it does. I shouldn't be looking at what the law actually says.

    And really, I shouldn't... that wasn't entirely sarcastic there. I don't have the legal expertise to make sense of it or fully understand how it would be implemented in practice. But I am certainly not going to base my assessment off a vague article from a news outlet of questionable reputation. Anybody around here have a law degree? Or a story from a reputable news outlet that covers it more appropriately? I think I've put in my homework contribution by finding the bill itself. :D
     
    dawny0826 likes this.
  3. Quatermass

    Quatermass Follower of Dagon

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    And this is a problem, since few people do. Legislators can make up laws that sound nice, and disguise its reality in legalese people either cannot understand or don't even bother to read.

    I'm not sure what passess for reputable over in The States of America: Miss. governor signs religious freedom bill; civil rights groups dismayed - latimes.com

    Mississippi religious freedom bill criticized as discriminatory

    Mississippi passes Arizona-style religious freedom bill


    Bryant signs controversial religious-freedom bill » Mississippi Business JournalMississippi Business Journal
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
    Erotic Dance
    I know just enough law to get the sense the bill is overturning at least some restrictions on people using a religious excuse to justify doing something. I could be wrong though. My family has a lot of lawyers in it, but I'm not one of them.
     
  5. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Vague. Seems like anarchy; everybody has their own religion, nowadays. Why is it that we use more words than necessary on these bills, without efficiently relaying its parameters? This made me more angry then the bill itself.
     
  6. nazz

    nazz Doubting Thomas

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    This libertarian is cheering ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2014
  7. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    If it's the same as what AZ tried to pass then I'm glad it was passed. The only reason AZ vetoed was because of the NFL. Note I am assuming it is a similar bill, but the US is not a place to play favorites. If we are a free country how can we possibly be against a right to discriminate? We can frown upon discrimination but not the right to practice it. I've noticed the most people who've been fighting or equal rights all of a sudden freak out with bills like this that say those that disagree with them should have lesser rights. Again, assuming the bills are similar (they seem it), the OP may be happier somewhere in the Mid East?
     
    dawny0826 likes this.
  8. Quatermass

    Quatermass Follower of Dagon

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    1952 called. They want their myopic view of the world back.
     
  9. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    Yup, straw men just like in AZ. Someone who believes that not forcing Jews to serve neo-Nazis and Jim crow laws are similar in any way can't possibly have anything to say that's worth listening to.
     
  10. Quatermass

    Quatermass Follower of Dagon

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    Excuse me...are you from the past? Because in the 21st Century we learned that discrimination is the antithesis of the American Constitution. But that aside, you are not a free country. Freedom has never existed anywhere in the world that we know of yet. All you have is a certain range of permitted behaviour and in some parts of the world this is greater than in others. If an Arab came to America with 6 of his wives, he would not be allowed entry to the country because American Law states a man shall have only one wife. Well that's not freedom. But this bill isn't about freedom, it's about misappropriating the word 'freedom' to meet other agendas which are far more totalitarian.
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Living Dead Girl

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    Religion:
    Ask me when I'm dead.
    That was the impression I got from reading it.

    How is a bill that makes discrimination legal acceptable? The AZ bill would have made it possible for businesses to deny service to people just for any arbitrary reason that they think goes against their religious views. Actually, if you ask me, a very serious problem in America is everyone is caught up in themselves and the damned precious rights. These bills a shinning example of how clearly "rights" have had people wallowing in filth and mire. Clearly not everyone is going to have a "right" in this situation, or in many others, but instead of trying to figure out how to handle this like intelligent and civilized people, we cling to a concept that really doesn't exist anyways and slow down progress for society as a whole.
    And to put this in a better perspective, such laws greatly further reduce and restrict my rights just to a normal life. But if businesses are allowed to send me out the door just because I don't fit nicely into a black/white gender binary, then my "rights" to just go to any store to buy dinner is being trampled on because of the same ********* "right" that allowed WBC to protest anywhere they please. Seriously, rights are supposed to be a good thing, not establish cesspools of society that the disadvantaged must tolerate.
    Really I don't even see how such laws are legal, because we the courts ruled that "separate but equal" is not equal. Such laws don't even give the feigned decency of "separate but equal."
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
    Lvcifer Invictvs likes this.
  12. Drolefille

    Drolefille PolyPanGeekGirl

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    Weird that the Anti-Defamation League and the Jewish Community Relations Council in AZ both supported the veto of that AZ law then, huh?

    Orthodox groups mum on Arizona religious exemption bill | Jewish Telegraphic Agency


    No it isn't the Jim Crow south anymore - oh wait having an integrated prom in MS is still a shocking thing - BUT allowing a business to discriminate based on an individuals personal belief can lead to the exact same sort of problems. It wouldn't be hard to be stuck in a small town in MS and be refused service at gas stations, motels, mechanics, and then what? It's like an unofficial sundown law.

    I have never understood how people in the US are so insistent on their free speech to the extent that their RIGHT must trample all over everyone else's toes. But because we know from specific historical experience what happens when we allow the public discrimination of people due to faith as well as race, we don't allow it. I don't know why people think that going back to that would be better. I really don't. Particularly when being non-hetero, non-cis isn't protected a universally protected class in this country already.

    Because forcing this judge to allow interracial marriages is infringing on his personal religious beliefs, and people who agree with him should be allowed to discriminate to this day... I don't think so.
     
  13. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    You guys are so cute thinking that these laws are even changing anything. Are you from somewhere where business don't have the right to refuse service or anything of the sort? You can't have it both ways - either government can or cannot tell people how to act and what to believe. I feel like I'm taking to a bunch of kids who seem to believe this law just created discrimination. It's a good law over all even if it's creators are just bigots. You know how this will affect your life? You can avoid giving money to groups so discriminatory they will screw over their own profit to feel powerful.

    If you pay attention the law is not creating danger either. The government cannot discriminate, only the people (which is how it's been for... Forever). Things like hate crimes and such will not be tolerated. All that's happening is instead of being asked to leave or whatever for unknown reasons, businesses can tell you the reasons.

    It's Even funnier with AZ because AZ is a right to work state, lol. The law legitimately changes nothing.

    I find it more disturbing that you guys think the government should be allowed to tell business who they can and cannot serve, to force a Jewish deli to cater to neo-nazis, to force a hotel run by a pro-choice family to host a pro-life gala, to force a homosexual restaurant owner to serve his homo-phobic house representative, etcerera. It's very disturbing, the lengths that supposed "free thinkers / progressives" will go to create inequality for those they disagree with.
     
    Father Heathen likes this.
  14. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    This legitimately made me laugh out loud - and cry a bit inside. So homosexuality certainly trampled over toes, I hope you vote against gay marriage. You're totally willing to force independent business owner to serve those they legitimately feel are bad people. Don't pretend like you're upset about trampling on people's toes when you're arguing for superior rights for your own group.
     
  15. nazz

    nazz Doubting Thomas

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    Totalitarian? Promoting freedom is the antithesis of totalitarianism. The entire reason we have a Bill of Rights in our constitution is to prevent runaway government control.
     
  16. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    Hey if you don't like the WBC how're you ok with being forced to serve them after a hard days work of protesting? In fact, the law doesn't say they can protest wherever they want, it's about businesses refusing service.

    I though fallacy was the job of the conservatives? Times, they are a-changing.
     
  17. Drolefille

    Drolefille PolyPanGeekGirl

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    It is illegal to refuse service due to discriminatory beliefs against protected classes. So yes I'm from a place where a business cannot do that. It's the US.

    So yes, discrimination still happens, I have personal experience with a housing discrimination issue, but because of the law, I had redress. If my landlord had wanted to refuse to let me live with someone because we're not married that would have been illegal. If it was legal, I'd have had no redress.


    And if you're discriminated against you have no redress. None. You're boned.


    Right to work just means you're not required to join a labor union.
    If you're referring to "at-will employment" that's different.
    It's as if you're suggesting that anti-discrimination laws do nothing because people can just be sneakier about it. Have you forgotten that people used to be incredibly blatant about it, and it was socially acceptable to do so? Are you arguing that we are not better off now?

    Again, funny that the Jewish groups were against the law if that was the true purpose of it.

    A pro-choice deli shop owner should provide sandwich trays to an organization without care of what that organization is meeting for. Because it doesn't matter, they're just buying sandwiches. I work for a company whose interests I strongly dislike, and I work with clients who are incredibly homophobic, who refer to women as "females" and who call watching their own children "babysitting." I shouldn't be protected for saying "nope, not gonna do it" because of my personal beliefs. I should lose my job.
     
  18. Drolefille

    Drolefille PolyPanGeekGirl

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    Yeah no, a gay marriage, or my poly relationship doesn't do a damned thing to hurt anyone else.

    I was literally referring to people who complain about their speech - "I can't say that gays are immoral because people don't like it. I can't say the n-word because I'm not black. I see women calling each other whores, why can't I?"
    "I must express my beliefs at the expense of you and yours."
    If you work in a restaurant you're required to provide them service. I find nothing wrong with that. They can decide whether or not they want food from my going to hell heathen hands or not, but they'll get untampered food and service.
     
  19. The Doors of Perception

    The Doors of Perception New Member

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    You're driving down the road at night and there's a man standing there. He's wearing black robes, a strange geometrical pendent, has a large bag with him, and is covered in something dark and sticky that you can assume is blood. You're well versed, and you make the safe assumption that this man has participated in something you certainly want no involvement in and you keep driving.

    The next day there is a knock on your door. A man asks you to confirm the incident and you do so. He then turns you around and arrests you for discrimination. The man was offended that you chose not to pick him up and grabbed your license number. You're living in the world YOU created, and so are arrested for discrimination.

    You enjoy that.
     
  20. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Living Dead Girl

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    I do not understand this being forced to serve them. And yes, many states do allow them to protest pretty much wherever, which includes the door steps of a funeral home. And my grievance with this is the same exact "right" that allows their venomous-charged protests to exists, here in America, is the same "right" that many think is their own right to discriminate; be it bullying, hiring, firing, who is offered service, who gets to stay at your apartments or whatever.
    And I am using "rights" that way because in many other countries things like the WBC simply would not have the right to be an obnoxious public nuisance. As I said, we are so caught up in our own damn rights that we refuse to acknowledge the folly of what we think are rights-to-do-whatever, and we do not even think of or have any regards to the consequences of our insatiable lust to be selfish ********.

    Actually, I live in a state where, until the Supreme Court recently ruled that "gender expression" is protected under the "sex" part of the Civil Rights act, it was legal for a tenant to evict someone for no other reason than being transgender.
    And it's bills like these that are turning the clocks back. It used to be that businesses could discriminate against black people, and turn them away just for being black. But we ruled, as a society, in favor of reason and logic, and decided that people should have legal protections from discrimination. What a novel idea that was! That if someone is going to discriminate, then at least there will be some loops for them to jump through.
    And right-to-work has nothing to do with work. It is a law that makes it so you don't have to join a union, and right-to-work states have a lower average income than non-right-to-work states. Also Indiana is a "right-to-work" state, but state lawmakers are so against homosexuality that a state law banning gay marriage is not enough for them.

    But they thing is, they aren't bad people. Our nation's courts already ruled decades ago that you cannot refuse service to a protected class. It is unfortunate the government has to step in, but if it didn't we would have made very little, probably no progress at all. After all it was government intervention that created the Civil Rights laws and ended Jim Crow laws, it was government that said landlords cannot evict a tenant for reasons that are not clearly stated and defined (such as delinquent payments and trashing the place) and not because they live with an unwed partner, are gay, or are a man wearing that which pertains unto a woman. It even took government intervention to do something about domestic violence as well as addressing the tolerance of murdering black people.
    And I see no one as arguing for superior rights. Demanding equal treatment and that no one become a less-than-second-class citizen because of a few uptight pricks can't get along is not arguing for superior rights; it's arguing that we shouldn't be expected to deal with and tolerate even more piles of **** that society piles on us.
     
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