Religious fervour/ mental illness, apology to non theists.

[Wombat]

I met one today.

One of those people who in (almost) every respect is sane and normal.
He has a profession/career (Opera singer), makes a good living, has a nice partner, dresses well, doesn’t smell, seemingly articulate/well versed if not well educated, smokes but does not drink/take drugs, has no psychiatric history............no excuse for it really....but he was an absolute religious nutter.

A fervent faith frootloop.

A Bible Bashing Buffoon.

Interrupting a (important/work related) conversation between myself his partner and three others he took the first obscure opportunity to raise the issue of his faith and proceeded to pursue it with dogmatic determination in the face of the clear disinterest of all present. It was obsessive, compulsive, rude and disturbing behaviour.

It was quite apparent that he occupied a ‘separate reality’ that had only minimal and passing connection with the reality/circumstances around him...and no apparent interest in anything other than what >he< had to say re God/faith/the Bible.(Is there such a thing/condition as ‘Biblical Narcissism’?...the inability to interact with others other than through a self absorbed-self obsessed and singular focus on the Bible?)

This separate reality seemed to switch on and off...he was quite capable of ordering coffee and a meal without mentioning Jesus and even said something in passing pertinent to purchasing real estate without mentioning God...then, when others were discussing something else, he would latch onto some obscure irrelevant link and clumsily force a conversational segue back to his faith.

When he rose and briefly left us I thought there might be some respite...alas...he had only gone next door to the bookshop to purchase a ‘Good News Bible’ for his partner to present to a (shared) client- a troubled teenage girl. “Oh!” said the partner with delight “It’s not drab and black, it’s Aqua! Her favourite colour!”

I resisted the temptation of suggesting that a girl that stays out drinking and smoking dope all night is probably not going to see an Aqua Bible as a fashion accessory...but did point out to the partner (the girls Caseworker) that it is a breach of The Welfare Act and >illegal< to attempt to influence a client in your professional care in relation to their religion (lack thereof), politics or sexuality.

The partner/Caseworker was dismayed at news of this restriction on her civil liberty to proselytize and nutjob Bibleboy declared “No one can stop the work of the Lord”.

I advised that I had another meeting to attend and a co-worker smiled knowingly and said “I bet you do”.:run:

To the non theist/atheists I wish to say- Yes, they are ‘out there’ in every sense...I have met some...I met one today...they are very unpleasant and potentially dangerous...though they have nothing to do with me/theists in general and I/we are not responsible for them....................I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge and apologise for their existence.

 

[ChristineES]

It is my considered opinion that some anti-theists do have an almost religious fervor, but, thankfully, most do not. I can make a deal with that (or any any other) person, I will agree not to talk of my faith to him or her and he or she will not speak of his or non-faith to me. The workplace is not the place to proselytize and it is not the place to "anti-proselytize", as well.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Maybe if they repeat their fairy tales enough times, they will become true. Although, they may want to try clicking their heels together too.

 

[ChristineES]

You will always find someone who doesn't approve of you, whether it's your religion (or non-religion), your hair color, how much you weigh, how tall you are, how much make-up you wear. You have to live with that sort of thing because it will happen- even though it shouldn't. There are some people out there who thinks that everyone should look, think, and and act alike- and it ain't never gonna happen.

 

[Wombat]

It is my considered opinion that some anti-theists do have an almost religious fervor,.

True, but I am yet to meet the atheist/anti-theist who thinks it is his/her God given right to influence the beliefs of a Client in Care when to do so is illegal.

I can make a deal with that (or any any other) person, I will agree not to talk of my faith to him or her and he or she will not speak of his or non-faith to me.

That sounds reasonable. You sound reasonable. The individual I encountered today was not so open to reason. I strongly suspect that in any attempt to "make a deal" my imortal soul would have been on the table....and not of my choosing.

The workplace is not the place to proselytize and it is not the place to "anti-proselytize", as well.

Well...In my workplace to "anti-proselytize" is central and core. We work with kids, damaged and vulnerable kids. >Nobody< has the right to take their personal beliefs into this environment governed by a 'Duty of Care' and attempt to influece these kids in regard their beliefs. To do so is unhealthy and dangerous.

I guess that is what upset me the most- The Caseworker/partner did not know/understand the law and why it is there and he, the Bible Basher, refused to even consider such a law valid. He was quite happy to encourage his partner to break the law in the name of "The Lords work".

Such fervour saddens and frightens me.

Thanks for your reply

 

[BruceDLimber]

It is my considered opinion that some anti-theists do have an almost religious fervor....

Precisely why atheism is sometimes descxribed as quasi-religious.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vinayaka]

One of those people who in (almost) every respect is sane and normal.

Interrupting a (important/work related) conversation between myself his partner and three others he took the first obscure opportunity to raise the issue of his faith and proceeded to pursue it with dogmatic determination in the face of the clear disinterest of all present. It was obsessive, compulsive, rude and disturbing behaviour.

It was quite apparent that he occupied a ‘separate reality’ that had only minimal and passing connection with the reality/circumstances around him...

This sounds very medical to me, although you seem to indicate it isn't. OCD and adult ADHD explain some of it. I think often we jump to conclusions regarding people, and use the simple idea that the person is just a _#$%_, when actually its very medical, and in need of diagnosis/counselling. One of the problems is an unwillingness of such people to go for a diagnosis.

Asperger's syndrome (google it) is another example. The inability to socialize in any normal way makes life difficult.

I certainly don't see any solution, but I think considering that its medical sometimes helps with our own tolerance.

I dealt with a few undiagnosed students as a teacher. These are memorable:
1) a kid who 'wouldn't listen' had ear wax buldup
2) a kid who made funny faces all the time to get attention had minor Tourettes
3) a thief of food was hungry

 

[Rakhel]

There are some that just cannot separate religion from life. True, it can be an important part of your life, but that doesn't mean it is as important to others.
Some just seem to be under the impression that "If you have Jesus, all your problems will vanish."
I never really know what to say to them. My grandfather is like this. Every Sunday, if I happen to make the mistake to call him on Sundays, he asks if we went to church and what the pastor talked about and what type of church it is and how he has done this and that for his church. And if we say we didn't go today, he will go on about the 700club and what they talked about.....It can be maddening.
Now on the other end of the spectrum, my granny, who was also a firm believer in "Jesus fixes all," was not so quick to judge or insist that you believe as she does. She knew half her kids and grandkids weren't firm believers and felt no need in imposing her beliefs on them.

 

[Kathryn]

Jerks come in every color, weight, height, profession, income level, education level, and belief system.

So do narcissists.

So do people with OCD.

Sounds like you ran into a real nutjob. I wouldn't assume that his religious beliefs really even have that much to do with his personality disorder - most Christians definitely do NOT act like him. I'd say that he's, well, just a jerk who happens to be a jerk especially regarding religion.

I've met jerks whose political beliefs manifest in this same way - liberals and conservatives alike.

I've met people who are just as OCD about their job, or their kids, or their own personal life in general.

I do my best to avoid them.

 

[Wombat]

This sounds very medical to me, although you seem to indicate it isn't. OCD and adult ADHD explain some of it.

Appreciate the insight and concede the possibility. I currently work with kids with behavioural difficulties... and have worked with psych disabled, also have daughter with Asperger's.....sooo...yes...could be a medical condition....but I’m going to suggest that even if that is the case and there is an underlying imbalance....Religion sure aint helping... but rather exacerbating an existing condition or potentially excusing bad behaviour with religious zeal. Either way I encounter far to many for whom religion is an excuse to get up in someone’s face.

I certainly don't see any solution, but I think considering that its medical sometimes helps with our own tolerance.

ADHD in combination with passionate interest in cars/football I can handle/tolerate, I listen politely and when I reach my tolerance level I firmly advise thereof...Few Auto/Football nutters then go on to explain why I >must< pay heed for my immortal soul depends on it.

I dealt with a few undiagnosed students as a teacher. These are memorable:

1) a kid who 'wouldn't listen' had ear wax buldup
2) a kid who made funny faces all the time to get attention had minor Tourettes
3) a thief of food was hungry

I couldn't agree more. When I first entered the Welfare Sector, thirty years ago, the first kid I encountered was designated “uncontrollable and dangerously violent” and confined in ‘Isolation’.....turns out he was ‘deaf’ (no one knew) and in a rage of frustration.

Knowing this, conceeding this...I still encounter far too many (per head of population) who take their religion as an excuse/reason/mission for appalling behaviour.

 

[Wombat]

Sounds like you ran into a real nutjob. I wouldn't assume that his religious beliefs really even have that much to do with his personality disorder -.

And therein resides my doubt and problem Kathryn...I do believe that his "religious beliefs have that much to do" with it...."personality disorder" perhaps, common garden variety "jerk" perhaps, "narcissists" certainly....but whatever else is going on it is aplified and exacerbated by unrestrained religious fervour.

And I strongly suspect that we/all/society make it worse by tollerating and excusing the religious jerk in ways that we would not with other offensive individuals.

It seems to me that in many respects 'religion' can become a licence to be obnoxious/rude and that we become complicit in excusing it.

most Christians definitely do NOT act like him..

Undeniably true. But does that fact become part of the rationale of acceptance of his/others obnoxious behaviour?

I look back on the encounter and others like it and wonder if I would have been as polite/tollerant had they been agressive sales people or agressive tellemarketers... those jerks I frequently promptly advise- "Take a long walk off a short pier"!

I do my best to avoid them.

Yea...me too...But I wonder if we/collectively do our best to advise the religious jerks how innapropriate and unproductive their behavior is.....or do we turn a blind eye, make excuses we would not accept for other bad behaviours/jerks and thereby let the problem fester?

 

[blackout]

I knew two kids in college,
(in the jazz department)
who were part of some bible cult thing.

You couldn't talk TWO sentences,
without their bible/god/jesus/salvation talk.
really.
And the rest of us were like.... ok......:areyoucra

Then I had a friend who was thinking of joining,
and I was thinking this would not be a good thing,
(judging by the two I knew)
(and also for other reasaons)
so I went with him,
to check them out,
and truly it was bible bible bible ad neasuem.
They would never answer a single pointed question.
Just tell you to read the bible.

A whole bunch of them shared this one apartment,
and it really was SO surreal.
Kind of like a "pod people" pad.

Some people REALLY are like this,
and it's not healthy.
They cannot have a normal conversation
about anything without bringing in religion.
(their religion of course, and how wonderful it is,
and how we all need it.)

I remember the male was in my first year improv class,
and actually he made me sad.
He seemed so personless.
Like empty behind the eyes.
His music was empty too.
He didn't make his horn resonate,
the sound was flat,
like him. Like his personality.
I wanted to snap my fingers in his face,
and say "Snap out of it!"

 

[Wombat]

They cannot have a normal conversation
about anything without bringing in religion.

Yes...and I get the very distinct impression they are talking >at< me not 'to' me...or worse, thousand yard glazed eye stare and talking right 'through' me.

It is the same impression that I sometimes get on this (or similar) religious forums...that I am not actually required for the 'other half' of the dialogue because the person I am attempting to converse with is providing >both< sides of the exchange and I am superfluous to a conversation that would continue (inside the others head) without me.

He didn't make his horn resonate,

Ah!.....There ya go!...>proof conclusive< that something is terribly terribly wrong and religious fervour is probably afoot!

 

[Kathryn]

And therein resides my doubt and problem Kathryn...I do believe that his "religious beliefs have that much to do" with it...."personality disorder" perhaps, common garden variety "jerk" perhaps, "narcissists" certainly....but whatever else is going on it is aplified and exacerbated by unrestrained religious fervour.

And I strongly suspect that we/all/society make it worse by tollerating and excusing the religious jerk in ways that we would not with other offensive individuals.

It seems to me that in many respects 'religion' can become a licence to be obnoxious/rude and that we become complicit in excusing it.





Undeniably true. But does that fact become part of the rationale of acceptance of his/others obnoxious behaviour?

I look back on the encounter and others like it and wonder if I would have been as polite/tollerant had they been agressive sales people or agressive tellemarketers... those jerks I frequently promptly advise- "Take a long walk off a short pier"!


Yea...me too...But I wonder if we/collectively do our best to advise the religious jerks how innapropriate and unproductive their behavior is.....or do we turn a blind eye, make excuses we would not accept for other bad behaviours/jerks and thereby let the problem fester?

You did not address the main point of my post, which was this:

Religion, politics, sexual orientation, hobbies, socioeconomic status (and other hot topics) CAN bring out the worst in an already unbalanced personality. I've seen people act just as you've described regarding all of the above.

My point was that I don't think that it's simply a matter of religious fervor. I believe that fervor is a SYMPTOM of an underyling personality trait, not the CAUSE of that sort of behavior.

 

[Wombat]

You did not address the main point of my post, .

Sorry...didn’t know it was the “main point”...thought it was just one of several.
As I understand Netiquette a ‘main point’ is identified thus-
>>MAIN POINT<<!!!

Religion, politics, sexual orientation, hobbies, socioeconomic status (and other hot topics) CAN bring out the worst in an already unbalanced personality. I've seen people act just as you've described regarding all of the above..

My (albeit oblique) response was that while folk can be fanatical jerks in relation to "politics, sexual orientation, hobbies, socioeconomic status (and other hot topics)" religion seems (to me) to often add an extra twist and take it to a (frequently) quite different dimension.
Yes I encounter political zealots, yes I encounter hobby obsessives....but for an encounter with someone from the Twilight Zone I don't believe you can beat your good old Bible Bashing fruitloop.
While the political and hobby fanatics might bore me to tears it is the religious fanatic that more often simply frightens me with the conclusions drawn from or based on 'faith/scripture'.
I recently met an Evangelical who told me "Aboriginals had no grounds for Land Rights claims...they are, by the will of God, a conquered people".
I do not believe the man was inherantly racist/prejudiced but drew his stance directly from scripture and was more than prepared to go to great lengths to explain it.
And I still strongly suspect that if his pov had not been presented in the context of 'scripturally based and thereby sound’ (to be tollerated because it is religious) those hearing such a pov would have been vocal in their outrage.

My point was that I don't think that it's simply a matter of religious fervor. I believe that fervor is a SYMPTOM of an underyling personality trait, not the CAUSE of that sort of behavior.

I have allready conceeded the posibility of "underyling personality traits" and/or mental illness...but I still hold that religion can 'cause' people, even otherwise stable people, to go quite loopy...and that 'religion' (for both the perp and the victims of such loopyness) provides some kind of 'social licence' for obnoxious behaviour.

If you like, in the interests of ballance and fair play, I could give you >dozens< of examples from my encounters within the Baha'i community!

 

[Kathryn]

No thanks. I think it's pretty clear that your personal biases are coloring your perceptions. I don't mean that to sound harsh - we ALL have personal opinions, biases, and "hot buttons" when it comes to what we can or will tolerate from others, and what peculiar traits and behaviors push us to the limits of our personal endurance.

but I still hold that religion can 'cause' people, even otherwise stable people, to go quite loopy...and that 'religion' (for both the perp and the victims of such loopyness) provides some kind of 'social licence' for obnoxious behaviour.

Sure it does - but you could also substitute the words "politics" or "sports" or any other number of interests which some people fixate on and you'd see the same behaviors.

 

[waitasec]

You did not address the main point of my post, which was this:

Religion, politics, sexual orientation, hobbies, socioeconomic status (and other hot topics) CAN bring out the worst in an already unbalanced personality. I've seen people act just as you've described regarding all of the above.

My point was that I don't think that it's simply a matter of religious fervor. I believe that fervor is a SYMPTOM of an underyling personality trait, not the CAUSE of that sort of behavior.

i think any religion that gives an individual an undue sense of importance (i'm on gods side and i am right) attracts people with those personality traits because it justifies their controlling behavior... especially when it comes to those hot button topics. interestingly enough, christianity pulls rank with 30% of the worlds population...islam with 19%. that right there is just about 50% of the worlds population...
so the odds that an individual with this personality disorder is either christian or muslim is very very high...

edit:

i also should add that not only do these religions justify this behavior it also makes people act differently.
i think of my own mom, who is one of the sweetest people, but when it comes down to these hot button issues she changes into this nasty person :sad:

 

[waitasec]

And I strongly suspect that we/all/society make it worse by tollerating and excusing the religious jerk in ways that we would not with other offensive individuals.

i agree...

how do you think society tolerates this religious fervor?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You'll find the same fervor from non-theist, and you'll find theist that are very nice people. You even find it when debating politics.

 

[ChristineES]

I was picking my daughter at school (this was years ago) and I saw a man who was on drugs (I assume) who was screaming at the top of voice. He wasn't saying anything religious or non-religious. As Kathryn pointed out, people who are mentally ill don't come in one size, shape, faith or non-faith.