Religion in Public Schools.

[Rakhel]

A young man in up state New York was suspended because he refused to remove the rosary he was wearing. In fact New York state in more prone to suspend a student wearing a rosary than they are for fighting. I questioned their reasoning until I found out that the rosaries are now being used as a gang identification.

 

[Kathryn]

Here is why people can get paranoid about freedom of religious expression in schools:

Michigan School Changes Policy on Honor Student Witch | American Civil Liberties Union

Free Speech Debate, Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary - ABC News

ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School | American Civil Liberties Union

Student suspended for in-school prayer called "disruptive," protests follow | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Education News

ACLU Sues to Protect Free Speech Rights of Anti-Abortion Church Group in Indiana | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Rhode Island Sues On Behalf of Town Resident's Objection to City Hall Religious Display | American Civil Liberties Union

Taunton second-grader sent home over drawing of Jesus - Taunton, MA - The Taunton Gazette

Suspended teacher's aide sues employer over wearing cross on necklace

ACLU of New Jersey Defends Second-Grader's Right to Sing Religious Song | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Oklahoma Files Federal Lawsuit on Behalf of Student Accused of "Hexing" a Teacher | American Civil Liberties Union=

 

[tumbleweed41]

Here is why people can get paranoid about freedom of religious expression in schools:

Michigan School Changes Policy on Honor Student Witch | American Civil Liberties Union

Free Speech Debate, Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary - ABC News

ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School | American Civil Liberties Union

Student suspended for in-school prayer called "disruptive," protests follow | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Education News

ACLU Sues to Protect Free Speech Rights of Anti-Abortion Church Group in Indiana | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Rhode Island Sues On Behalf of Town Resident's Objection to City Hall Religious Display | American Civil Liberties Union

Taunton second-grader sent home over drawing of Jesus - Taunton, MA - The Taunton Gazette

Suspended teacher's aide sues employer over wearing cross on necklace

ACLU of New Jersey Defends Second-Grader's Right to Sing Religious Song | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Oklahoma Files Federal Lawsuit on Behalf of Student Accused of "Hexing" a Teacher | American Civil Liberties Union=

A lot of that shows ignorance on behalf of the schools as to what constitutes a students religious rights.
Bravo to the ACLU for defending the rights of all citizens.

 

[Magic Man]

A young man in up state New York was suspended because he refused to remove the rosary he was wearing. In fact New York state in more prone to suspend a student wearing a rosary than they are for fighting. I questioned their reasoning until I found out that the rosaries are now being used as a gang identification.

I'm glad you qualified that at the end. That makes it make sense. Generally, schools are against students wearing gang signs. If students were using rosaries as such, then it's reasonable they would suspend a student for refusing to remove his gang sign.

 

[Magic Man]

Here is why people can get paranoid about freedom of religious expression in schools:

Actually the reason is they hear stories that may or may not be based in fact, but even the ones based in fact are distorted to make them sound worse. When you get all of the facts, it usually makes sense. The point is that they should understand their rights, so that if a school does infringe on them, they know they have legal recourse. Hearing that the ACLU helped a student stand up to a school that was infringing on his religious rights would only make me feel better about my rights.

Now, let's look at an example of this in action. Right above you, Rakhel made a claim about a story about a student suspended for wearing a rosary. Most people would only hear that part and get all upset. When you hear the real story, it makes much more sense.

Free Speech Debate, Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary - ABC News

First, this had nothing to do with religion. The student wasn't wearing it as a religious symbol. He was wearing it because his brother was holding the rosary when he died, and this student wears it in remembrance of him. Also, the suspension has nothing to do with the rosary as a religious symbol. They have a policy about beads being worn because beads are used as a gang sign.

Second, the student refused to put the rosary inside of his shirt. That means he was making a show of his beads. That could help lead them to believe it was a gang sign.

Now, could they sit down and discuss this and make an exception? Sure. The problem is that then opens the door for all of the other students to take advantage of the exception. The school was not wrong for acting as they did. It might be that at this point, it's clear that it's not a gang sign and it's harmless, and they can point to very good reasons for making an exception if any other students try to get away with it. But this was not religious discrimination, nor discrimination of any kind.

 

[tumbleweed41]

And from another of the links provided...

Student suspended for in-school prayer called "disruptive," protests follow | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Education News

“To cause a disturbance, that's the entire reason that I started doing any of this,” Aly said. “I want to show everybody that God is the only way.”
“She was extremely fired up. She was lit up,” said her mother Carla White. “She’s like Mom. I've felt called and I really want to do this. I really feel like I have to.”
But Principal Rob Stephenson had a different take on the issue.
“I approached the girl. I didn't know what she was doing and I asked her to get down off the chair. You can't do that,” he said.
Stephenson, who carries a cross in his pocket, says the problem wasn't Aly praying.
“She can't put herself in a dangerous situation. She can't stand up on the cafeteria benches,” said Stephenson.
Aly was suspended for two days.


She was not suspended for praying. She was suspended for creating a disturbance and putting herself in a dangerous situation.

From my OP...

May students pray together in public schools?
Yes. Students are free to pray alone or in
groups, as long as the activity is not disruptive
and does not infringe upon the rights of others.
These activities must be truly voluntary and
student-initiated. For example, students are
permitted to gather around the flagpole for
prayer before school begins, as long as the event
is not sponsored by the school and other
students are not pressured to attend. Students
do not have a right to force a captive audience.


The student admitted in the interview that her intent was to cause a disturbance.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Taunton second-grader sent home over drawing of Jesus - Taunton, MA - The Taunton Gazette

From the article...
The image in question depicted a crucified Jesus with Xs covering his eyes to signify that he had died on the cross. The boy wrote his name above the cross.....
“I think what happened is that because he put Xs in the eyes of Jesus, the teacher was alarmed and they told the parents they thought it was violent,” said Toni Saunders, an educational consultant with the Associated Advocacy Center.....
“Generally speaking, we have safety protocols in place,” Hackett said. “If a situation warrants it, we ask for outside safety evaluations if we have particular concerns about a child’s safety. We followed all the protocols in our system.”....
The boy made the drawing and was sent home from school on Dec. 2. He went for the psychological evaluation — at his parents’ expense — the next day and was cleared to return to school the following Monday after the psychological evaluation found nothing to indicate that he posed a threat to himself or others....
This is not the first time in recent years that a Taunton student has been sent home over a drawing. In June 2008, a fifth-grade student was suspended from Mulcahey Middle School for a day after creating a stick figure drawing that appeared to depict him shooting his teacher and a classmate.


The teacher may have overreacted to the picture, however their is no indication that this had anything to do with a violation of the students religious rights.

 

[MW0082]

Here is why people can get paranoid about freedom of religious expression in schools:

Michigan School Changes Policy on Honor Student Witch | American Civil Liberties Union

Free Speech Debate, Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary - ABC News

ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School | American Civil Liberties Union

Student suspended for in-school prayer called "disruptive," protests follow | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Education News

ACLU Sues to Protect Free Speech Rights of Anti-Abortion Church Group in Indiana | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Rhode Island Sues On Behalf of Town Resident's Objection to City Hall Religious Display | American Civil Liberties Union

Taunton second-grader sent home over drawing of Jesus - Taunton, MA - The Taunton Gazette

Suspended teacher's aide sues employer over wearing cross on necklace

ACLU of New Jersey Defends Second-Grader's Right to Sing Religious Song | American Civil Liberties Union

ACLU of Oklahoma Files Federal Lawsuit on Behalf of Student Accused of "Hexing" a Teacher | American Civil Liberties Union=

Did you even read any of those articles?? You're not doing a very good job in proving a point. In the majority of those cases it had nothing to do with religion or practice there of, it was general rules the schools had and they pertain ironically to a religous aspect. Such as rosery beads or a girl styanding in the middle of a cafeteria. Again nothing to do with religion. your exaggerated the situation to help your cause,....:no:

Religion should be allowed to be practiced everywhere, as long as it does not interfer with the day to day lives of others around them. Then thats when it should be limited and kept at bay. I think you have a huge misunderstanding of what ones individual rights to religion are and the safety of others.....

p.s. what is wrong with the girl who got to wear her Pentagon in school to honor her religion? So you feel only a sepcif religion should be allowed in school?

 

[AxisMundi]

The SCOTUS ruling being referenced is (primarily) Abington School District v. Schempp, which noted in part that "...it might be well said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." This is what created the distinction between teaching religion and teaching about religion, thus opening the door to religious studies.

As a student of religious studies in a public school, I'm somewhat fascinated by your claim that one cannot study religion in general/ Abrahamic religion in particular without some level of prosetylization and indoctrination. What exactly do you base this claim on? I can't really see how a course studying different Christian thinkers, the evolution/ diversity of Christian thought, it's impact on society at large, etc. is any different or more "indoctrinating" than any other area of study in history/ sociology/ anthropology/ philosophy/ etc.

Firstly, while many colleges are indeed public institutions, it is an elective course, not a requirement.

Secondly, one cannot explain about relgiion to the younger students in elementary and high schools about relgiion without giving a basis in the beliefs of said religion, ie the creator god of the Abrahamics.

Remember, said religious instruction would be targeted at vulnerable and highly impressionable young people.

 

[Magic Man]

p.s. what is wrong with the girl who got to wear her Pentagon in school to honor her religion? So you feel only a sepcif religion should be allowed in school?

I think her point with that one was that in some cases students are denied certain religious rights. And of course, that's true, which is why stories like that one would only make me feel more secure in the protection of my religious rights. Also, I think the story was a bad choice because we all know religions other than Christianity do have problems with discrimination like that. This thread is directed towards the Christians who feel they're being persecuted and their religious rights are being taken away.

 

[Kathryn]

I think her point with that one was that in some cases students are denied certain religious rights.

Yes, that is my point, and yes, in some cases the students' rights WERE violated.

And of course, that's true, which is why stories like that one would only make me feel more secure in the protection of my religious rights.

Yes that's my point. And I'm grateful that in this country we do have legal recourse. However, I personally don't want that sort of drama, or the expense of a lawsuit, in my life, and I think that most other people feel the same way. We'd rather not have to worry about that sort of thing.

Also, I think the story was a bad choice because we all know religions other than Christianity do have problems with discrimination like that. This thread is directed towards the Christians who feel they're being persecuted and their religious rights are being taken away.

I intentionally chose the stories that also had nothing to do with Christianity because the truth of the situation is that when religious freedoms are restricted, ALL religions are affected.

 

[Kathryn]

Tumbleweed and Mball and MW0082 - I didn't give my opinion on any of the articles posted - I simply said that these types of articles are what fuel fear of religious persection.

]Did you even read any of those articles?? You're not doing a very good job in proving a point. In the majority of those cases it had nothing to do with religion or practice there of, it was general rules the schools had and they pertain ironically to a religous aspect. Such as rosery beads or a girl styanding in the middle of a cafeteria. Again nothing to do with religion. your exaggerated the situation to help your cause,....:no:

You apparently are approaching my posts on this from a biased perspective. I did not say that anyone's fears were completely reasonable - all I did was post headlines and say "This is why people get concerned about the infringement of religious freedoms." You are slapping your preconceived notions on my post. :no:

Yes, I did read the articles - every one of them. Some of them are understandable examples of school discipline, and others are examples of restrictions of religious freedom, or at the least terrible judgement on the part of teachers or administration.

Religion should be allowed to be practiced everywhere, as long as it does not interfer with the day to day lives of others around them. Then thats when it should be limited and kept at bay. I think you have a huge misunderstanding of what ones individual rights to religion are and the safety of others.....

Why do you think I have a huge misunderstanding when it comes to the rights and safety of others? What do you base this assertion on?

p.s. what is wrong with the girl who got to wear her Pentagon in school to honor her religion? So you feel only a sepcif religion should be allowed in school?

Pentagram. The Pentagon is the US military headquarters.

Wow - where do you get this stuff? What on earth in my post would make you assume that I feel that only specific religions should be protected?

 

[NeoSeeker]

Is it constitutional to teach about religion in public schools?
Firstly, I would like to know which SCOTUS ruling is being referenced. Second, particularly with the Abrahamics, it is impossible to teach about relgiion without some level of indoctrination and prosetylization. relgiion needs to be left up to religious institutions to keep the relgiion pure and "unsullied" by government.

I think an Atheist could teach it in a neutral way and it's the only place children would possibly get a neutral view. At religious institutions the kids would be getting a sales pitch. However I'm undecided if teaching it in public school would be a good idea.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Tumbleweed and Mball and MW0082 -......

Sorry if you misunderstood my intent Kathryn. I did not comment on why you may have posted the stories. I was just pointing out that the people who may think some of those stories indicate religious persecution would be wrong.
I also applaud you for showing that the ACLU will, and does, defend everyones religious freedoms. No matter what their belief.

In the conversation with my daughter over bringing a Bible to school, one of the things I told her was that I was sure I would have both the ACLU and the Americans United for Separation of Church and State supporting her right to bring a Bible to school.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The following is an example of what happens when religion pervades school policies.


GEORGETOWN, Del. - After her family moved to this small town 30 years ago, Mona Dobrich grew up as the only Jew in school. Mrs. Dobrich, 39, married a local man, bought the house behind her parents' home and brought up her two children as Jews.
For years, she and her daughter, Samantha, listened to Christian prayers at public school potlucks, award dinners and parent-teacher group meetings, she said. But at Samantha's high school graduation in June 2004, a minister's prayer proclaiming Jesus as the only way to the truth nudged Mrs. Dobrich to act.
"It was as if no matter how much hard work, no matter how good a person you are, the only way you'll ever be anything is through Jesus Christ," Mrs. Dobrich said. "He said those words, and I saw Sam's head snap and her start looking around, like, 'Where's my mom? Where's my mom?' And all I wanted to do was run up and take her in my arms."

After the graduation, Mrs. Dobrich asked the Indian River district school board to consider prayers that were more generic and, she said, less exclusionary. As news of her request spread, many local Christians saw it as an effort to limit their free exercise of religion, residents said. Anger spilled on to talk radio, in letters to the editor and at school board meetings attended by hundreds of people carrying signs praising Jesus. "What people here are saying is, 'Stop interfering with our traditions, stop interfering with our faith and leave our country the way we knew it to be,' " said Dan Gaffney, a host at WGMD, a talk radio station in Rehoboth, and a supporter of prayer in the school district.
After receiving several threats, Mrs. Dobrich took her son, Alex, to Wilmington in the fall of 2004, planning to stay until the controversy blew over. It never has.

A homemaker active in her children's schools, Mrs. Dobrich said she had asked the board to develop policies that would leave no one feeling excluded because of faith. People booed and rattled signs that read "Jesus Saves," she recalled. Her son had written a short statement, but he felt so intimidated that his sister read it for him. In his statement, Alex, who was 11 then, said: "I feel bad when kids in my class call me 'Jew boy.' I do not want to move away from the house I have lived in forever."
Later, another speaker turned to Mrs. Dobrich and said, according to several witnesses, "If you want people to stop calling him 'Jew boy,' you tell him to give his heart to Jesus."


Full story HERE.

 

[Atomist]

I think an Atheist could teach it in a neutral way and it's the only place children would possibly get a neutral view. At religious institutions the kids would be getting a sales pitch. However I'm undecided if teaching it in public school would be a good idea.

It definitely should be done in a comparative religions class.

 

[Rakhel]

You will find many a class in the south, where prayer is still made available in the classrooms. When My oldest two were younger, we lived in a very rural part of Mississippi. You could walk down the halls of the school, just before lunch, and hear a prayer said by students and teachers. The school had found a legal loophole in the law about prayers in schools. If the student led the prayer,the teachers couldn't get into trouble. All they had to do was ask if the students wanted to pray and who want to led the prayer and there you go.

 

[NeoSeeker]

The following is an example of what happens when religion pervades school policies...

I'm not surprised. Zealots no matter their cause are the same. The shame is they actually think God and Jesus approve of their actions.

 

[Quiddity]

No thanks......but not for fear of a theocracy or that somehow this will take us back to the stone ages. I just don't trust a liberal ran bureaucracy to teach anything about what the Catholic Church teaches (we have plenty of those already). They'd probably spend most their time complaining about the priesthood, marriage, and eat granola bars.

 

[AxisMundi]

I think an Atheist could teach it in a neutral way and it's the only place children would possibly get a neutral view. At religious institutions the kids would be getting a sales pitch. However I'm undecided if teaching it in public school would be a good idea.

I listed but one concern, but to be frank I seriously doubt anyone could teach religion to younger kids without some indoctrination occurring. Things like "Creator" echo in a child's mind.

There is also the simple problem of WHICH religion's to teach. How Christianity effected, say, Ireland? Well, one would have to go into some detail of the pre-Christian religion and then the pre-Celtic religions as well. Then one would have to delve into the religions that spawned festivals and holidays still in use today, as well as religions that influence Christianity itself.

See the problem?

When are kids supposed to learn the basic foundational curricula, the "Three R's"?

At the college/university levels is another matter. But there is simply no reason to teach religion to impressionable grade schoolers.