Religion for Atheists

[Jackytar]

I've always felt that there is more to Atheism than the nay-saying of religious dogma. That if we are to reject the possession of divine knowledge by humans we still need ways to express those experiences of thought and emotion that transcends the material world - that address the deeply mysterious elements of our existence. The acknowledgement that divine knowledge actually exists.

While listening to a podcast of Bill Moyers interviewing Robert Wright, the author of The Evolution of God he said something that I found interesting. Although he was clearly an Atheist he said, "By William James' definition of religion, I am a religious person". I never heard of William James before but I looked him up. He was a turn of the century psychologist and pragmatic philosopher who thought and wrote quite a bit about mysticism and religious experience. Anyhow, his definition of religion was -

The belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.

I agree with Robert Wright on this. I think that by this definition I am a "religious person" too - although I'm not about to start calling myself that. But I agree with that statement. I hold this belief.

So what do you Atheists think? Would you agree or disagree with this statement and why?

Jackytar

 

[BucephalusBB]

Well, so far I have troubles understanding the "our supreme good"

 

[Jackytar]

Well, so far I have troubles understanding the "our supreme good"

I would go with the Buddhist tenet of the abatement of suffering.

Jackytar

 

[MSizer]

I suppose it's possible, but I don't see any evidence for it myself. Maybe I'm missing the point.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"All human beings are religious if religion is broadly defined as the impulse for coherence and meaning." - Yi-Fu Tuan

 

[BucephalusBB]

Then if that is the definition of religion, I belong there as well..
I am not sure if every religion has an unseen order though, so I am not sure if I would agree that that is the definition of religion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then if that is the definition of religion, I belong there as well..
I am not sure if every religion has an unseen order though, so I am not sure if I would agree that that is the definition of religion.

Much of it seems to depend on whether you are speaking of religion as verb or as noun. Have you read Goodenough's Sacred Depths of Nature?

 

[Jackytar]

Much of it seems to depend on whether you are speaking of religion as verb or as noun. Have you read Goodenough's Sacred Depths of Nature?

Looks interesting. And I see that she references William James.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

I am not sure if I would agree that that is the definition of religion.

There are a lot of definitions of religion, none of them wholly adequate to be sure. I was more interested if other Atheists would agree or disagree with the statement, putting the definition aside.

Jackytar

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Looks interesting. And I see that she references William James.

She also likes red wine ...

She's an interesting person. The book is well worth reading.

 

[Alceste]

There are a lot of definitions of religion, none of them wholly adequate to be sure. I was more interested if other Atheists would agree or disagree with the statement, putting the definition aside.

Jackytar

It's a pretty Taoist statement, and I agree with the it but wouldn't call myself "religious". Taoist philosophy and taoist religion are not as tightly knit as theology and religion in the west. Religious taoism involves a lot of rituals, a huge pantheon of gods and demons, several alternative dimensions (something like heavens and hells) and some pretty clear views on life after death. Taoist philosophy is essentially apophatic and questions the value of ritual and belief.

I think "religious" implies "member of an organised religion" - with all its associated rituals and ideological trappings. So, I understand why people distinguish between "spiritual" and "religious".

I'm spiritual, and my own self-constructed world view is so similar to Taoist philosophy (as expressed in the Tao te Ching) the two are pretty much indistinguishable to me, but I still can not call myself a "Taoist", or call Taoism my "religion". The TTC is just a book I read. To be a "Taoist" would require a significant investment of time and effort - 24 / 7 / 365. I'd have to eat a Taoist diet, practice Taoist martial arts and meditation, learn the intricacies of Taoist cosmology... meh.

 

[linwood]

I've always felt that there is more to Atheism than the nay-saying of religious dogma. That if we are to reject the possession of divine knowledge by humans we still need ways to express those experiences of thought and emotion that transcends the material world - that address the deeply mysterious elements of our existence. The acknowledgement that divine knowledge actually exists.

"Divine knowledge".
Nope don`t believe in it.

Now if you`re implying such a thing as laws of the cosmos/physics/biology and all it entails.Sort of a "force" or "tao" to an extent.

I`m game for that.

I was under the impression atheists found many different ways to express this "spirituality".
Maybe I`m wrong.

The belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.

I don`t know Robert Wright nor have I looked him up (yet) so I don`t know in what age he made his statement but I would alter it to imply that the "order" he speaks of is far less "unseen" than he implies.
I agree with it`s tenor over all.

 

[Jackytar]

Religious taoism involves a lot of rituals, a huge pantheon of gods and demons, several alternative dimensions (something like heavens and hells) and some pretty clear views on life after death. Taoist philosophy is essentially apophatic and questions the value of ritual and belief.

Oh, so that's what "Taoish" means .

My sister-in-law started practicing Buddhism about 10 years ago. At first my brother (an Atheist) was okay with it and even tried to go along with it but she has become a "religious fanatic" according to him and her adult son, practicing daily rituals, attending numerous meetings and retreats and even forgoing vacations and employment so they won't interfere with her "practice" which seems to have become an obsession - occupying her every waking thought and action. That's not Buddhism as I understand it. They will probably divorce over this.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

"Divine knowledge".
Nope don`t believe in it.

Now if you`re implying such a thing as laws of the cosmos/physics/biology and all it entails.Sort of a "force" or "tao" to an extent.

I`m game for that.

I guess that's what I'm implying - knowledge, truth, beauty, order that surely exists but is beyond our reach, outside, even well outside, of our current knowledge. Perhaps "divine" is not the best word but It works insofar as theists and non-theists contemplate the same "unseen order".

I was under the impression atheists found many different ways to express this "spirituality".
Maybe I`m wrong.

Yes, but this struck me as a bit more immediate and personal than the usual treatment. And if Atheists do share this "spirituality" with believers they seem to me to be reticent to acknowledge it. Even "The God Delusion" completely ignored it.

I don`t know Robert Wright nor have I looked him up (yet) so I don`t know in what age he made his statement but I would alter it to imply that the "order" he speaks of is far less "unseen" than he implies.
I agree with it`s tenor over all.

It was William James and he lived in the late 1800s / early 1900s. While we may know more about the world and ourselves than we did in his era, surely we will never get our arms around the whole of it.

Jackytar

 

[linwood]

I guess that's what I'm implying - knowledge, truth, beauty, order that surely exists but is beyond our reach, outside, even well outside, of our current knowledge. Perhaps "divine" is not the best word but It works insofar as theists and non-theists contemplate the same "unseen order".

Understood.
I`ll stop nitpicking.

Yes, but this struck me as a bit more immediate and personal than the usual treatment. And if Atheists do share this "spirituality" with believers they seem to me to be reticent to acknowledge it. Even "The God Delusion" completely ignored it.

It`s my assumption that acknowledging this "spirituality" for the atheistic ego would be kind of like expressing doubt in divinity in the theistic ego.
It`s not something to be talked about.

Harris did touch on spirituality for the atheist in "The End of Faith".
I don`t particularly agree with his conclusions but at the least he doesn`t avoid the subject.

Dawkins is at times to rational even for me.

It was William James and he lived in the late 1800s / early 1900s. While we may know more about the world and ourselves than we did in his era, surely we will never get our arms around the whole of it.

I would hope we don`t ever.

 

[freethinker44]

While listening to a podcast of Bill Moyers interviewing Robert Wright, the author of The Evolution of God he said something that I found interesting. Although he was clearly an Atheist he said, "By William James' definition of religion, I am a religious person". I never heard of William James before but I looked him up. He was a turn of the century psychologist and pragmatic philosopher who thought and wrote quite a bit about mysticism and religious experience. Anyhow, his definition of religion was -

The belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.

I agree with Robert Wright on this. I think that by this definition I am a "religious person" too - although I'm not about to start calling myself that. But I agree with that statement. I hold this belief.

So what do you Atheists think? Would you agree or disagree with this statement and why?

Jackytar

If we can make up definitions to say whatever we want, then I guess, but isn't that kind of intellectually dishonest.

 

[Autodidact]

I've always felt that there is more to Atheism than the nay-saying of religious dogma. That if we are to reject the possession of divine knowledge by humans we still need ways to express those experiences of thought and emotion that transcends the material world - that address the deeply mysterious elements of our existence. The acknowledgement that divine knowledge actually exists.

While listening to a podcast of Bill Moyers interviewing Robert Wright, the author of The Evolution of God he said something that I found interesting. Although he was clearly an Atheist he said, "By William James' definition of religion, I am a religious person". I never heard of William James before but I looked him up. He was a turn of the century psychologist and pragmatic philosopher who thought and wrote quite a bit about mysticism and religious experience. Anyhow, his definition of religion was -

The belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.

I agree with Robert Wright on this. I think that by this definition I am a "religious person" too - although I'm not about to start calling myself that. But I agree with that statement. I hold this belief.

So what do you Atheists think? Would you agree or disagree with this statement and why?

Jackytar

Me too. In fact, I would go so far as to say I have faith in it, which is why I always go with reality. Is there a name for this belief system?

I wouldn't call it religion, because to me all religion violates this approach.

 

[Nepenthe]

While listening to a podcast of Bill Moyers interviewing Robert Wright, the author of The Evolution of God he said something that I found interesting. Although he was clearly an Atheist he said, "By William James' definition of religion, I am a religious person". I never heard of William James before but I looked him up. He was a turn of the century psychologist and pragmatic philosopher who thought and wrote quite a bit about mysticism and religious experience. Anyhow, his definition of religion was -


The belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.
I agree with Robert Wright on this. I think that by this definition I am a "religious person" too - although I'm not about to start calling myself that. But I agree with that statement. I hold this belief.

So what do you Atheists think? Would you agree or disagree with this statement and why?

Jackytar

I think Wright is at times far too poetic and vague. he actually identifies himself as an agnostic and is extremely critical of atheists (and even erroneously labels the dreaded "New Atheists" as right-wingers!). His education is in journalism and this is reflected in his science writing (yes, that was an insult), though I did enjoy The Moral Animal.
Here's a recent article where he expounds on the idea of innate morality and James' "unseen order" and "harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto". A Grand Bargain Over Evolution | The New America Foundation
Wright all too often oversimplifies or mischaracterizes some issues in his essays- he quotes Steven Pinker in the article I linked but does so in a slightly deceptive manner imo. Heres Pinker on innate morality: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html?_r=1

I find William James' definition of religion would probably apply to myself, but it's vague enough to be interpreted pretty broadly.

 

[Jackytar]

If we can make up definitions to say whatever we want, then I guess, but isn't that kind of intellectually dishonest.

Okay, but would you agree or disagree with the belief?

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

It`s my assumption that acknowledging this "spirituality" for the atheistic ego would be kind of like expressing doubt in divinity in the theistic ego.
It`s not something to be talked about.

Ha! Well said. But aren't Atheists, you know, supposed to be better than that?

Jackytar