Relics and Idol Worship

[Jethro Tull]

The most sacred relics we have of past prophets and revolutionaries, such as Jesus, Mohammad, and Sakyamuni Buddha, are the words which they left, the scriptures and the writings, and all those ideas which can be verified in personal experience as valuable truths. Words, thoughts and ideas are not material things, they are spiritual. It is true that they are transferred by material means in books and manuscripts, and by the air vibrations of sounds, but it is not the paper of the book, or the fibers of the manuscript, or the sound-waves that are sacred, but the ideas which are conveyed by them.

Thus, all treasures regarded as holy are spiritual, not material. The worship of relics, be they bones, hair, teeth, depictions, works of art, images, or any other substance of the body of a saint, is a mistake. The do not possess any other value than the remains of ordinary materials, or depictions of the mind. The soul of the Buddha, the soul of Jesus, is not in their bones and their made-up images, but in their words. Those who worship images of a dead man, or relics themselves, are in an incomplete stage of religious development in which devotees have not as yet attained to full philosophical clearness.

Relics should not be worshiped. They should be recognized for the teachings and the words that are preserved in spirit for us to interpret.

In truth, it does not matter if Jesus, Mohammad, Sakyamuni Buddha, or any of their followers existed or not. It does not matter if they ever walked the Earth. You don’t have to believe anything that is not here now. Regardless of whether or not they existed, their words and ideas are preserved in spirit to this day. The words of religious saints are preserved in scriptures such as the Bible, the Koran, and ancient sutras.

It is not the material relic that matters; it is the words that are preserved in spirit.

With this understanding, we can stop arguing whether or not Jesus and the Buddha actually walked this Earth. It simply does not matter, because they left behind something far more important: words and ideas which can be verified in personal experience as valuable truths.

The Present (with religion) at http://www.thetruthcontest.com, page 103:
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Fighting over things: No one that is fighting over land or other things for religious reasons knows the truth. The most misguided Christians, Jews and Muslims are fighting over a little place called Jerusalem. They think that their God lives there, and they have to get it back for him. Their God needs their help, even though he is all powerful. It makes no sense, but nothing they do does. The truth is, the beast occupies the “holy land” inside them.

Relics: Why do people think that things like the shroud of Turin, the lost ark, a piece of wood from the cross, or other things that may or may not have been close to a prophet have some mystical power? It is idol worship.

People will travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars to see a stain on a wall that some people think looks like one of their saints. Worshiping idols, images and relics is a pagan practice, and against the teachings of Jesus, but so-called Christians do it anyway. What are they thinking? A piece of wood or something that has been blessed by some misguided preacher has no value, except to the devil/mind. Wake up people. The truth is, everyone involved in relic worship is hurting their religion and misguided by the devil/mind.

So-called holy things and places just give the devil/mind something to fight over. They are a dangerous deception. The truth is, God/life is everywhere you are all the time; there is nothing to fight over in the name of God.
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[Ben Dhyan]

Words, thoughts and ideas are not material things, they are spiritual.

Hi Jethro Tull, to my understanding, words, thoughts and ideas are conceptualizations that represent the REAL, but are not real in themselves except as concepts. The concept 'spirit' represents a reality presumed to BE on the other side of the word/thought/idea, but spirit can only be 'known' by spirit, not by the mind concept of it.

It follows then that words, thoughts and ideas can become confused with the reality for which they stand, and become items of worship just like the more material counterpart.

Truth is always on the other side of conceptual descriptions and statements.

 

[Jethro Tull]

Hi Jethro Tull, to my understanding, words, thoughts and ideas are conceptualizations that represent the REAL, but are not real in themselves except as concepts. The concept 'spirit' represents a reality presumed to BE on the other side of the word/thought/idea, but spirit can only be 'known' by spirit, not by the mind concept of it.

It follows then that words, thoughts and ideas can become confused with the reality for which they stand, and become items of worship just like the more material counterpart.

Truth is always on the other side of conceptual descriptions and statements.

Completely agreed, well put my friend. Truth is beyond conceptualization. It is.

I was just trying to show that physical relics and 'holy lands' are not to be worshiped. I feel that this understanding would dissipate much confusion in interpreting religious scriptures. I also feel that this whole 'fighting over the promised land in the name of God,' or fighting over anything in the name of God for that matter, is all because of this misunderstanding. It is contradictory; if God is omnipresent, why is it important to brutally kill millions over a hunk of dirt?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

With this understanding, we can stop arguing whether or not Jesus and the Buddha actually walked this Earth. It simply does not matter, because they left behind something far more important: ...

This may be a bit difficult to grasp, but if they did not 'actually walk this Earth,' they left behind absolutely nothing. And, even if they did in fact 'actually walk this Earth,' we are still left with two legitimate questions:

1. Is there credible reason to believe that they are the authors of that which is to attributed to them?
2. Even if they are deemed (presumed) the source of that which was left behind, is the credible reason to invest these leavings with the status of special truths?

To assert that historicity does not matter is absurd.

 

[Caladan]

Fighting over things: No one that is fighting over land or other things for religious reasons knows the truth. The most misguided Christians, Jews and Muslims are fighting over a little place called Jerusalem. They think that their God lives there, and they have to get it back for him. Their God needs their help, even though he is all powerful. It makes no sense, but nothing they do does. The truth is, the beast occupies the “holy land” inside them.

I suggest getting to know the history of the conflicts in the region better than simplifying it in such a dangerous way.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I was just trying to show that physical relics and 'holy lands' are not to be worshiped. I feel that this understanding would dissipate much confusion in interpreting religious scriptures. I also feel that this whole 'fighting over the promised land in the name of God,' or fighting over anything in the name of God for that matter, is all because of this misunderstanding. It is contradictory; if God is omnipresent, why is it important to brutally kill millions over a hunk of dirt?

Hi Jethro Tull, agree with you that the worshiping of relics, concepts, etc., is due to misunderstanding, as the omnipresent God point you raise shows clearly for those with understanding.

However true understanding is not a gift, and comes from the self correction of errors of misunderstanding. For those who presently do not have true understanding, and sincerely worship relics, etc., as the correct way of worship, then so be it, time and karma will eventually provide the lessons from which the errors will be revealed and corrected.

Earth is not Heaven and is a place of learning, not for mere intellectual learning but to gain understanding of what and who one really is beyond all conceptions. Human beings vary in their present understanding concerning their ultimate destiny but each, aware or not, is inevitably having the appropriate experiences necessary for its final realization.

 

[blackout]

Any thing can give rise to Godhood Within.

Any thing can enslave you as a mindless idolotry.

 

[blackout]

No thing is intrinsically powerful.

No thing is intrinsically evil.

It is always what YOU make of a thing.

 

[ChristineES]

This goes right along with "Worship God not His creations"

 

[blackout]

*UV cannot find the thread with the etymology discussion on the word 'worship' (wershape) *

*cries* :sad4:

 

[Smoke]

Relics should not be worshiped.

I always wonder about religious people who are adamantly opposed to the veneration of relics, holy objects and holy places. Have they never cherished a wedding band or a photo of a loved one? visited a grave? gone to see an old house where someone they loved once lived? Have they no souvenirs or mementos? Have they no sentiment? The impulse to connect, through objects and places, with what and whom we love and revere is almost universal among humans.

They should be recognized for the teachings and the words that are preserved in spirit for us to interpret.

I'd suggest that words are not, in fact, preserved in spirit, but as memories and texts, and that if "spirit" means anything at all, it means something too subtle and elusive to be affected by mere words and interpretation.

With this understanding, we can stop arguing whether or not Jesus and the Buddha actually walked this Earth. It simply does not matter, because they left behind something far more important: words and ideas which can be verified in personal experience as valuable truths.

See Jay's post.

 

[Jethro Tull]

However true understanding is not a gift, and comes from the self correction of errors of misunderstanding. For those who presently do not have true understanding, and sincerely worship relics, etc., as the correct way of worship, then so be it, time and karma will eventually provide the lessons from which the errors will be revealed and corrected.

Earth is not Heaven and is a place of learning, not for mere intellectual learning but to gain understanding of what and who one really is beyond all conceptions. Human beings vary in their present understanding concerning their ultimate destiny but each, aware or not, is inevitably having the appropriate experiences necessary for its final realization.

Well put, friend. Everyone is on their own path. I really don't have much to add to your post, as we resonate on a similar wavelength. I will say, however, that I believe now is a window of opportunity for the masses to realize and understand what/who we really are beyond all conceptions. Communication technology has evolved to the point where the masses can be reached very quickly. It will take work for seers to spread the truth anonymously over the internet, but it is happening now, and if the time is right, it will snowball. We all have to get happy, to realize our true Self, at about the same time, or else the collective mind will continue to hide the truth. Seers must plant the seeds (spread truth online) and fish for men (find other seekers). Of course though, truth will only be seen by those seeking. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear, proverbially speaking.

 

[Jethro Tull]

I'd suggest that words are not, in fact, preserved in spirit, but as memories and texts, and that if "spirit" means anything at all, it means something too subtle and elusive to be affected by mere words and interpretation.

I was thinking more along the lines of ideas and meanings being preserved in spirit. Like I said in the original post:

It is true that they are transferred by material means in books and manuscripts, and by the air vibrations of sounds, but it is not the paper of the book, or the fibers of the manuscript, or the sound-waves that are sacred, but the ideas which are conveyed by them.