Reincarnation

[nPeace]

Clearly you have no clue about Reincarnation

Reincarnation is the belief in the transmigration of the soul.
Since according to the belief, the soul is immortal, and the soul can reach purity, then any transmigration of that soul, to a person, will only result in such person having a pure soul.

If you disagree, then you are the one who has no clue about Reincarnation.
Either that, or the teaching is just too confusing for those believing in it, to understand.
What happens when the person dies again... or don't they?

Come on stvdv. Why join a conversation to consider it a sin to converse with one who views such beliefs as false?
Is it because you feel I have wronged you by expressing those views?

Imagine if I had said to you, "You have not a clue about X."
Would you have said, "I see no reason to talk to you about X"?
Yet. I have not done that. Should I have?
You believe in fairness. Don't you, stvdv?

 

[Madmogwai]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

Your lives are like School periods, I don’t believe in perfection but when we have sufficiently reached a worthy point the School day is over.

 

[SomeRandom]

Reincarnation is the belief in the transmigration of the soul.
Since according to the belief, the soul is immortal, and the soul can reach purity, then any transmigration of that soul, to a person, will only result in such person having a pure soul.

If you disagree, then you are the one who has no clue about Reincarnation.
Either that, or the teaching is just too confusing for those believing in it, to understand.
What happens when the person dies again... or don't they?

Come on stvdv. Why join a conversation to consider it a sin to converse with one who views such beliefs as false?
Is it because you feel I have wronged you by expressing those views?

Imagine if I had said to you, "You have not a clue about X."
Would you have said, "I see no reason to talk to you about X"?
Yet. I have not done that. Should I have?
You believe in fairness. Don't you, stvdv?

I don’t know if the soul, in its transmigration is necessarily pure, per se. It’s more like the soul or atman is a part of Brahman/Shakti (universe energy principle stuff.)
“Pure” sounds like a Western translation and such translations usually try to force Dharmic principles into Abrahamic dynamics. Which doesn’t always work.
(Disclaimer, I can only speak for my personal understanding, I do not claim to speak on behalf of anyone else.)
Reincarnation or Samsara is seemingly a binding force one tries to actively escape from. Following their dharma, trying to live ethically and trying to I guess “connect” to their true self. In this context that usually means seeing the universe and one’s place in it clearly.
There are of course little “quirks” that developed alongside this belief system. For instance my family believes that the month one is born signifies whether or not that person is going to be reincarnated or if they’ve reached the end of their cycle. According to them, I’m on my last life. Which is somewhat encouraging if I’m honest lol

 

[soulsurvivor]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

Reincarnation does not necessarily mean that your life gets better or easier. The multiple lives we are required to live, are very much like grades in school. Each life you learn and develop further and grow - in intelligence, emotional being, spiritually, but just like in school, each grade is harder, so life may become more difficult as you progress. The circumstances of your life also depend on your karma - if you are a good person in this life - kind and compassionate to others, you will very likely suffer less in the next.

 

[Brian2]

If current life forms represent the pinnacle of previous innumerable lives and lessons, the most numerous life form on earth isn't a bird

Tailed phages are a kind of bacteriophage— viruses that infect bacteria. They are the most abundant organism on Earth, with an estimated 10^31 particles in our biosphere..

Sorry I don't see the relevance.

 

[nPeace]

I don’t know if the soul, in its transmigration is necessarily pure, per se. It’s more like the soul or atman is a part of Brahman/Shakti (universe energy principle stuff.)
“Pure” sounds like a Western translation and such translations usually try to force Dharmic principles into Abrahamic dynamics. Which doesn’t always work.
(Disclaimer, I can only speak for my personal understanding, I do not claim to speak on behalf of anyone else.)

Thank you for that.
I speak from my understanding of what is taken from well researched writings on the subject... mainly from those believers themselves.

Belief in the immortality of the soul is very prominent among non-Christian religions. For example, the most esteemed of sacred Hindu writings, The Bhagavad Gita, specifically refers to the soul as deathless.

Though strong believers in the immortality of the human soul, Hindus describe its nature in vague terms. Says the publication Hinduism, by Swami Vivekananda:

“The Hindu believes that every soul is a circle whose circumference is nowhere, though its centre is located in the body; and that death only means the change of this centre from one body to another. Nor is the soul bound by the conditions of matter. In its very essence, it is free, unbounded, holy, pure, and perfect. But somehow or other it finds itself bound down by matter, and thinks of itself as matter.”​

I think many Hindus do not understand what they believe (not referencing you), and it's due to ideas that are contradictory.
It's no surprise then when some of those believers find it difficult to explain their beliefs... especially when those beliefs are challenged.

Reincarnation or Samsara is seemingly a binding force one tries to actively escape from. Following their dharma, trying to live ethically and trying to I guess “connect” to their true self. In this context that usually means seeing the universe and one’s place in it clearly.

This is what some believe, but you would agree... I hope, not all Hindus believe the same thing... as is the case with all "belief systems"

For some Hindus, it's an endless cycle.
However, I'm no Hindu expert. As I said, my understanding is from well researched sources, and I know for a fact these sources are reliable, because they are from persons who lived the live. Some, for many decades.

I asked a question earlier, which wasn't answered.
Perhaps you can answer, so that I can hear from your experience.
I might be able to find something on it, but might take some digging.

Reincarnation: According to this belief, when a person dies, the soul, the “real self,” passes on to a better existence if the individual has lived a good and proper life, but possibly to existence as an animal if his record has been more bad than good. Each rebirth, it is believed, brings the individual back into this same system of things, where he will face further suffering and eventual death. The cycles of rebirth are viewed as virtually endless. Is such a future really what awaits you? Some believe that the only way of escape is by extinguishing all desire for things pleasing to the senses. To what do they escape? To what some describe as unconscious life.

What happens when a soul passes on to a better existence? Is the person still subject to death? If so, what happens after that?

There are of course little “quirks” that developed alongside this belief system. For instance my family believes that the month one is born signifies whether or not that person is going to be reincarnated or if they’ve reached the end of their cycle. According to them, I’m on my last life. Which is somewhat encouraging if I’m honest lol

Yes, that's another important thing that plays a role in the need for communication, and getting a person's perspective or belief on a subject.
They are often differences.
No different with Christianity.

 

[ajay0]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

The possibility for both evolution and devolution of the soul is there, on the basis of the choices it makes .

It is the same as in our present life. If we make smart and ethical choices and implement them, we will obviously improve and progress. If we make foolish and unethical choices, the chances of failure and regression would be high.

Karma is but understanding of cause and effect, and the Ramayana states that only a learned and wise person can exercise sound judgement which can result in improvement .

 

[SomeRandom]

Thank you for that.
I speak from my understanding of what is taken from well researched writings on the subject... mainly from those believers themselves.

No problem.
Beware though. Hindus are not ones to rely on scripture too much. There is a lot of emphasis to figure out one’s own philosophy.
Not saying the scriptures are disregarded, obviously.
It’s just that outside of personal endeavours or becoming a Pundit (priest) one doesn’t really have to read the scriptures if they don’t want to. They’re used in our prayer rituals, but other than that, it’s kind of up to the individual if they wish to study the (admittedly vast array of) our scriptures. Some choose not to and that’s fine
Saying that though, this may not be the case in some of the more orthodox traditions lol

Belief in the immortality of the soul is very prominent among non-Christian religions. For example, the most esteemed of sacred Hindu writings, The Bhagavad Gita, specifically refers to the soul as deathless.

Indeed the Soul or atman is deathless and eternal. From my understanding, this is due to the soul being comprised of Brahman (the matter which makes up the entire universe, basically.)

Though strong believers in the immortality of the human soul, Hindus describe its nature in vague terms. Says the publication Hinduism, by Swami Vivekananda:

“The Hindu believes that every soul is a circle whose circumference is nowhere, though its centre is located in the body; and that death only means the change of this centre from one body to another. Nor is the soul bound by the conditions of matter. In its very essence, it is free, unbounded, holy, pure, and perfect. But somehow or other it finds itself bound down by matter, and thinks of itself as matter.”​

I think many Hindus do not understand what they believe (not referencing you), and it's due to ideas that are contradictory.
It's no surprise then when some of those believers find it difficult to explain their beliefs... especially when those beliefs are challenged.

I don't know if I’d go that far. Though I can agree that folks get easily flustered when their beliefs are challenged.
See Hinduism as a whole is comprised of a whole host of various traditions, sub traditions and local cultural quirks from all over the Indian Subcontinent (originally speaking.) Never mind acquiring many other quirks when it travelled overseas lol

Hindus are somewhat “independent” in some ways.
Obviously we rely on our family to teach us our traditions, stories and introduce us to our traditional beliefs. But you’re also encouraged to find a philosophy and path that speaks to your individual personality
If they contradict with one and other, that just means you’re going to have to hedge your bets on one or the other “team” and that’s deemed perfectly acceptable. Whatever speaks to you, then it speaks to you. Dharmics are pretty chill about such things. Usually

Issues arise in explaining our beliefs to others essentially because we’re often trying to summarise a vast array of different and often contradictory philosophical traditions (though all sharing at least one core element, if not more.)
Whilst at the same time going out of our way to respect each other’s beliefs and avoiding stepping on too many toes in the process.
So you may notice some vague allusions and people quick to point out that they only speak for themselves (as I did previously lol.)

This is what some believe, but you would agree... I hope, not all Hindus believe the same thing... as is the case with all "belief systems"

Yeah. I agree with that
I think there’s an old Hindi/Sanskrit saying that roughly translates to
“There are as many religions as there are people.”
One may quibble with that, but I mean I haven’t really got an issue with it

Indeed Hindus don’t really mind if there are conflicting or even contradictory beliefs within the “family” as it were. That there are contradictory philosophies is more or less taken for granted. I mean among the accepted philosophies there are Polytheists, Monotheists and even Atheist philosophical traditions. All are considered valid interpretations and though people may fervently argue among themselves, typically the “agree to disagree” philosophy will win out, if you get my meaning? Lol

For some Hindus, it's an endless cycle.
However, I'm no Hindu expert. As I said, my understanding is from well researched sources, and I know for a fact these sources are reliable, because they are from persons who lived the live. Some, for many decades.

I think you’ve done well in your research

I asked a question earlier, which wasn't answered.
Perhaps you can answer, so that I can hear from your experience.
I might be able to find something on it, but might take some digging.

Reincarnation: According to this belief, when a person dies, the soul, the “real self,” passes on to a better existence if the individual has lived a good and proper life, but possibly to existence as an animal if his record has been more bad than good. Each rebirth, it is believed, brings the individual back into this same system of things, where he will face further suffering and eventual death. The cycles of rebirth are viewed as virtually endless. Is such a future really what awaits you? Some believe that the only way of escape is by extinguishing all desire for things pleasing to the senses. To what do they escape? To what some describe as unconscious life.

What happens when a soul passes on to a better existence? Is the person still subject to death? If so, what happens after that?

Oh this may be above my pay grade lol
But I’ll try my best to answer from my personal perspective (not speaking for anyone else, of course.)
Passing onto a better existence is basically the same as attaining heaven, more or less. How that looks will depend on the individual’s interpretation and indeed what their philosophy tradition teaches.
Although I think in some philosophies this merely means that the soul has achieved everlasting peace and is absorbed fully back into Brahman/The universe. Rendering that person (or rather their existence) “beyond death” since they have managed to escape Samsara
After that? Well, I mean again this will look different to different people. It could mean achieving lasting peace and entering the Kingdom of God (our version) to live in eternal bliss and peace. Just for example.

At least I think that’s what happens.
Perhaps I should consult my local Pundit (priest) lol
Such a concept doesn’t really come up in that many Hindu discussions, now that I think about it. Huh, that’s interesting. Would have thought it would be more prominent, but I suppose focusing on such promised “rewards” would be seen as an example of merely following tradition to reep the benefits (a big no no lol)

Yes, that's another important thing that plays a role in the need for communication, and getting a person's perspective or belief on a subject.
They are often differences.
No different with Christianity.

I agree. It’s always good to keep the lines of communication firmly open and see what we can learn about each other.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

"Repetitio est mater studiorum."

If you have been repeating exercises/lessons over and over again then you have to have learned something. But there is a great "if".

One problem is memory. Collectively this is not a problem. We have culture - social memory. An individual seems tabula rasa at the beginning of life. Preincarnative knowledge could be manifested as talents and biases but it could just be genetics, chance, parents, environment...

 

[nPeace]

No problem.
Beware though. Hindus are not ones to rely on scripture too much. There is a lot of emphasis to figure out one’s own philosophy.
Not saying the scriptures are disregarded, obviously.
It’s just that outside of personal endeavours or becoming a Pundit (priest) one doesn’t really have to read the scriptures if they don’t want to. They’re used in our prayer rituals, but other than that, it’s kind of up to the individual if they wish to study the (admittedly vast array of) our scriptures. Some choose not to and that’s fine
Saying that though, this may not be the case in some of the more orthodox traditions lol


Indeed the Soul or atman is deathless and eternal. From my understanding, this is due to the soul being comprised of Brahman (the matter which makes up the entire universe, basically.)



I don't know if I’d go that far. Though I can agree that folks get easily flustered when their beliefs are challenged.
See Hinduism as a whole is comprised of a whole host of various traditions, sub traditions and local cultural quirks from all over the Indian Subcontinent (originally speaking.) Never mind acquiring many other quirks when it travelled overseas lol

Hindus are somewhat “independent” in some ways.
Obviously we rely on our family to teach us our traditions, stories and introduce us to our traditional beliefs. But you’re also encouraged to find a philosophy and path that speaks to your individual personality
If they contradict with one and other, that just means you’re going to have to hedge your bets on one or the other “team” and that’s deemed perfectly acceptable. Whatever speaks to you, then it speaks to you. Dharmics are pretty chill about such things. Usually

Issues arise in explaining our beliefs to others essentially because we’re often trying to summarise a vast array of different and often contradictory philosophical traditions (though all sharing at least one core element, if not more.)
Whilst at the same time going out of our way to respect each other’s beliefs and avoiding stepping on too many toes in the process.
So you may notice some vague allusions and people quick to point out that they only speak for themselves (as I did previously lol.)


Yeah. I agree with that
I think there’s an old Hindi/Sanskrit saying that roughly translates to
“There are as many religions as there are people.”
One may quibble with that, but I mean I haven’t really got an issue with it

Indeed Hindus don’t really mind if there are conflicting or even contradictory beliefs within the “family” as it were. That there are contradictory philosophies is more or less taken for granted. I mean among the accepted philosophies there are Polytheists, Monotheists and even Atheist philosophical traditions. All are considered valid interpretations and though people may fervently argue among themselves, typically the “agree to disagree” philosophy will win out, if you get my meaning? Lol



I think you’ve done well in your research



Oh this may be above my pay grade lol
But I’ll try my best to answer from my personal perspective (not speaking for anyone else, of course.)
Passing onto a better existence is basically the same as attaining heaven, more or less. How that looks will depend on the individual’s interpretation and indeed what their philosophy tradition teaches.
Although I think in some philosophies this merely means that the soul has achieved everlasting peace and is absorbed fully back into Brahman/The universe. Rendering that person (or rather their existence) “beyond death” since they have managed to escape Samsara
After that? Well, I mean again this will look different to different people. It could mean achieving lasting peace and entering the Kingdom of God (our version) to live in eternal bliss and peace. Just for example.

At least I think that’s what happens.
Perhaps I should consult my local Pundit (priest) lol
Such a concept doesn’t really come up in that many Hindu discussions, now that I think about it. Huh, that’s interesting. Would have thought it would be more prominent, but I suppose focusing on such promised “rewards” would be seen as an example of merely following tradition to reep the benefits (a big no no lol)


I agree. It’s always good to keep the lines of communication firmly open and see what we can learn about each other.

Thank yoi.
Just one thing. I'm not sure if you did answer, if the person can die again, when the soul reaches "everlasting peace".

Or maybe you did. To be sure I got you...
"Rendering that person (or rather their existence) “beyond death” means the person can never die. So they are eternal immortal beings as well - like the soul? Is that your understanding?

I was doing a bit of digging, and came up with moksha.
Samsara was a basic belief. It was propounded, at the latest, in the Upanishads, that group of Hindu scripture dating most likely from the first half of the first millennium B.C.E. They taught that after death and an intermediate stay in heaven or hell, individuals are reborn as humans or animals on a level either higher or lower than the one previously enjoyed, this according to the law of Karma. Life’s goal is to achieve moksha, release from the relentless cycle of birth and rebirth, being absorbed into the ultimate source of order called Brahma.

I'm not certain if this means not dying at all.
Perhaps that is what it means to some.
However being absorbed into the order of the universe, doesn't sound very inviting to me. That sound like someone telling me, "nPeace. You will die... but don't worry, you will be absorbed into the universe... Yeah. Your energy will still exist..." With a wry grin.
Me I'll dig a little deeper.

I found it interesting that Buddhist, whose teachings are similar to Hindus, though somewhat different, believe in liberation from the laws of Karma and samsara... as well as the attaining of Nirvana.
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

So, I'm wondering if Hindus "achieving everlasting peace" and being "absorbed fully back into Brahman/The universe" is similar.
So that rather than it being a case of "rendering that person's existence “beyond death”, it is a case of rendering that person existence non-existent.

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation.
That would seem likely, considering the history.

Spoiler: History

Over the centuries, as Hinduism spread, so did the teaching of reincarnation. And this doctrine has become the mainstay of present-day Hinduism.
From Hinduism sprang other faiths, such as Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. These also hold to belief in reincarnation. Moreover, as Buddhism penetrated most of East Asia - China, Korea, Japan, and elsewhere - it profoundly affected the culture and religion of the entire region. This gave rise to religions that reflect an amalgam of beliefs, embracing elements of Buddhism, spiritism, and ancestor worship. Most influential among these are Taoism, Confucianism, and Shinto. In this way the belief that life continues after the body dies has come to dominate the religious thinking and practices of the vast segment of humanity in that part of the world.

So, since Buddhist teachings, which were an off-shoot of Hinduism (obviously altered to varying degrees), affected the same Hinduism, then surely Hindu believers would have Buddhists understanding, and of course, there will be quite a lot of conflicting interpretations of the writings, and doctrines.

As you know, what was early Hindu doctrines was changes in later centuries, to what is known today.

 

[SomeRandom]

Thank yoi.
Just one thing. I'm not sure if you did answer, if the person can die again, when the soul reaches "everlasting peace".

All People die. No person is actually beyond death in Hinduism, including avatars. (Think Lord Jesus come to earth but Hindu versions essentially lol) The soul is what is everlasting or immortal, if you prefer. This is actually why Hindus always cremate their dead. The idea is that the soul or atman needs to be released from the body after a person dies in order to continue the journey into samsara or be released from it. If the person is buried then the anchor for the soul remains and Hindus worry about “waking up underground.”
Not even kidding, that’s literally how my mother explained our funeral rites to me, after getting young me to swear to make sure she would be cremated after her death.
I think once the skeleton eventually turns to dust, the soul is finally set free.

But that’s just how I understand it.
I’m not exactly “orthodox” full disclaimer lol

Or maybe you did. To be sure I got you...
"Rendering that person (or rather their existence) “beyond death” means the person can never die. So they are eternal immortal beings as well - like the soul? Is that your understanding?

The soul specifically is what can never die. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this also common in the Abrahamic religions?
Like you attain everlasting Life after you die by obeying God’s laws and living a moral life and (for Christians specifically) by accepting the saving grace of Lord Jesus. Am I incorrect in that assessment?
If so, I do apologise.
The Christians I know are fairly “liberal”
But no person is actually above death. Think of it like humans living their lives and then having an afterlife. That’s probably the easiest way to translate the concept.

I was doing a bit of digging, and came up with moksha.
Samsara was a basic belief. It was propounded, at the latest, in the Upanishads, that group of Hindu scripture dating most likely from the first half of the first millennium B.C.E. They taught that after death and an intermediate stay in heaven or hell, individuals are reborn as humans or animals on a level either higher or lower than the one previously enjoyed, this according to the law of Karma. Life’s goal is to achieve moksha, release from the relentless cycle of birth and rebirth, being absorbed into the ultimate source of order called Brahma.

Yes, this is what Hindus strive for. But again what that actually means looks different, depending on who you ask. Like I said, there’s a lot of differing traditions going back centuries, if not thousands of years. Maybe more.
That they disagree and conflict with each other is not really seen as an issue in Hindu culture.
Some even purposefully go against the grain, arguing that by breaking the human imposed barriers (social taboos) one can truly begin to understand the broadest aspects of their existence

I'm not certain if this means not dying at all.
Perhaps that is what it means to some.
However being absorbed into the order of the universe, doesn't sound very inviting to me. That sound like someone telling me, "nPeace. You will die... but don't worry, you will be absorbed into the universe... Yeah. Your energy will still exist..." With a wry grin.
Me I'll dig a little deeper.

Fair enough
I think of it like sort rejoining your truest self, to be absorbed into the Brahman is to return to your natural place in the universe. Think of it like returning home at last and enjoying a well earned relaxing nap. Albeit for eternity lol

I found it interesting that Buddhist, whose teachings are similar to Hindus, though somewhat different, believe in liberation from the laws of Karma and samsara... as well as the attaining of Nirvana.
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

Well Buddhism did grow out of Hinduism originally
They’re sort of like siblings

So, I'm wondering if Hindus "achieving everlasting peace" and being "absorbed fully back into Brahman/The universe" is similar.
So that rather than it being a case of "rendering that person's existence “beyond death”, it is a case of rendering that person existence non-existent.

Not too familiar with Buddhist beliefs, unfortunately. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us both. But it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the concepts are similar

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation.
That would seem likely, considering the history.

Spoiler: History

Over the centuries, as Hinduism spread, so did the teaching of reincarnation. And this doctrine has become the mainstay of present-day Hinduism.
From Hinduism sprang other faiths, such as Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. These also hold to belief in reincarnation. Moreover, as Buddhism penetrated most of East Asia - China, Korea, Japan, and elsewhere - it profoundly affected the culture and religion of the entire region. This gave rise to religions that reflect an amalgam of beliefs, embracing elements of Buddhism, spiritism, and ancestor worship. Most influential among these are Taoism, Confucianism, and Shinto. In this way the belief that life continues after the body dies has come to dominate the religious thinking and practices of the vast segment of humanity in that part of the world.

Yes interpretations will vary.
The variations that arise are very interesting to learn about

So, since Buddhist teachings, which were an off-shoot of Hinduism (obviously altered to varying degrees), affected the same Hinduism, then surely Hindu believers would have Buddhists understanding, and of course, there will be quite a lot of conflicting interpretations of the writings, and doctrines.

Ehh kind of?
Think of it like this.
Christianity is technically an offshoot of Judaism.
Lord Jesus was born a Jew after all, was He not?
But the end “results” are fairly different between the two, would you agree?
They are two distinct religions at the end of the day.

As you know, what was early Hindu doctrines was changes in later centuries, to what is known today.

Yes Hindus have undergone a lot of “growing up” through the ages. So to speak lol

 

[ajay0]

Thank yoi.
Just one thing. I'm not sure if you did answer, if the person can die again, when the soul reaches "everlasting peace".

Or maybe you did. To be sure I got you...
"Rendering that person (or rather their existence) “beyond death” means the person can never die. So they are eternal immortal beings as well - like the soul? Is that your understanding?

I was doing a bit of digging, and came up with moksha.
Samsara was a basic belief. It was propounded, at the latest, in the Upanishads, that group of Hindu scripture dating most likely from the first half of the first millennium B.C.E. They taught that after death and an intermediate stay in heaven or hell, individuals are reborn as humans or animals on a level either higher or lower than the one previously enjoyed, this according to the law of Karma. Life’s goal is to achieve moksha, release from the relentless cycle of birth and rebirth, being absorbed into the ultimate source of order called Brahma.

I'm not certain if this means not dying at all.
Perhaps that is what it means to some.
However being absorbed into the order of the universe, doesn't sound very inviting to me. That sound like someone telling me, "nPeace. You will die... but don't worry, you will be absorbed into the universe... Yeah. Your energy will still exist..." With a wry grin.
Me I'll dig a little deeper.

I found it interesting that Buddhist, whose teachings are similar to Hindus, though somewhat different, believe in liberation from the laws of Karma and samsara... as well as the attaining of Nirvana.
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

So, I'm wondering if Hindus "achieving everlasting peace" and being "absorbed fully back into Brahman/The universe" is similar.
So that rather than it being a case of "rendering that person's existence “beyond death”, it is a case of rendering that person existence non-existent.

The Hindu Moksha and Buddhist Nirvana is very much the same. Moksha means emerging with the infinite while Nirvana means dissolution into the emptiness which is the basis of all samsara.

It is like saying a glass is half full or half empty. It is a matter of interpretation.

The extinction of the individual ego, made up by his strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions, results in enlightenment, or Moksha/Nirvana. When that which is false is removed, the truth obviously is revealed on its own.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, you can improve or get worse imo.

"improving" can really only be defined in relation to some sort of target or goal...various systems of belief about reincarnation/transmigration/whatever you want to call it have different ideas about the target or goal of the process...

but as @The Hammer suggests, I agree that one can make progress or regress...or just hold even...

I agree with you both.

 

[Fool]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

not consistently. just as the spirit can rise it can fall. each potential is an opportunity for the mind, body, spirit to evolve/involve

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

science fails more often than it succeeds. failures can be a positive thing; if the intelligence learns something from it and doesn't keep repeating the same mistake.

 

[nPeace]

All People die. No person is actually beyond death in Hinduism, including avatars. (Think Lord Jesus come to earth but Hindu versions essentially lol) The soul is what is everlasting or immortal, if you prefer. This is actually why Hindus always cremate their dead. The idea is that the soul or atman needs to be released from the body after a person dies in order to continue the journey into samsara or be released from it. If the person is buried then the anchor for the soul remains and Hindus worry about “waking up underground.”
Not even kidding, that’s literally how my mother explained our funeral rites to me, after getting young me to swear to make sure she would be cremated after her death.
I think once the skeleton eventually turns to dust, the soul is finally set free.

But that’s just how I understand it.
I’m not exactly “orthodox” full disclaimer lol

Seems your understanding is in agreement with mine.
This is what I was saying earlier. "...it's a cycle of progress and regress.
If it's all progress, however, one must ask the question... What does that lead to?
Imagine getting a soul that has reached a perfect state, but you die, everytime, to return and get that soul, again... and again... and again..."
...and I am not even or Hindu, or Indian belief systems. Lol.

The soul specifically is what can never die. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this also common in the Abrahamic religions?

That depends on which """Abrahamic""" religion.
You must remember, every Jew in history claims Abraham is their father. Claims are a dime a dozen.

Remember too, that a lot of doctrines were borrowed from other traditions, and mixed with those taught through Moses, and the greater Moses - Jesus Christ. So that even today, so-called Christianity has adopted the belief in the immortality of the soul.

That's where the doctrine of eternal Hellfire, taught first (first to profess Christianity after the apostolic age) by the Roman Catholics, stems.
Immortality of the soul is not a Biblical teaching, and was not taught by Abraham, nor Moses... Nor Jesus, and his apostles.
They taught that death was the end of life, and the only hope of living again was by resurrection.
Some people try to support the teaching of immortality of the soul, by using Jesus illustration of the Rich man and Lazarus.
However, they ignore scriptures such as Ezekiel 18:4, and Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:17.
These clearly teach that the soul dies. It cannot be immortal if it dies. I'm sure you agree.

Like you attain everlasting Life after you die by obeying God’s laws and living a moral life and (for Christians specifically) by accepting the saving grace of Lord Jesus. Am I incorrect in that assessment?

Attaining everlasting life is being given life that is sustained by the souce of life - God. Unless one is given a life that is self-sustainable - that is, immortal.

That's different to being given an immortal soul, but still being subject to death.
The difference is that once given immortality, one can never die. They are not given a soul. They are spirit beings, and do not depend on anything to sustain their life.

There are mortals who also will gain everlasting life, but their living forever is dependent on staying 'connected' to God - the source of life... being obedient and faithful.

If so, I do apologise.

No need to apologize... even if you are incorrect. Nothing is wrong with asking questions, or making a statement based on one's understanding.
Sadly, many get offended when questions put their teachings in a bad light. However, I appreciate persons assumptions... even if misinformed, because it's their understanding, and I am happy to correct them... if need be.

The Christians I know are fairly “liberal”
But no person is actually above death. Think of it like humans living their lives and then having an afterlife. That’s probably the easiest way to translate the concept.

That's the way I understand it works.
Then they die... again. Then get another afterlife... again. Then they die... again.
It's an endless cycle. Isn't that how it goes?

Yes, this is what Hindus strive for. But again what that actually means looks different, depending on who you ask. Like I said, there’s a lot of differing traditions going back centuries, if not thousands of years. Maybe more.

Yes, that's what I understand too. Different interpretations... like in all belief systems.
Even scientists have different interpretation.

That they disagree and conflict with each other is not really seen as an issue in Hindu culture.
Some even purposefully go against the grain, arguing that by breaking the human imposed barriers (social taboos) one can truly begin to understand the broadest aspects of their existence

Seems that is similar in """Christianity""" today, as well.

Fair enough
I think of it like sort rejoining your truest self, to be absorbed into the Brahman is to return to your natural place in the universe. Think of it like returning home at last and enjoying a well earned relaxing nap. Albeit for eternity lol

Right. Exactly what I was thinking.
You were stardust. You return to stardust.
Not very comforting.

So we agree on the true interpretation of most Hindus, Buddhists, and many other Indian religions.
I believe some New Age religions incorporate some of the same beliefs, but not 100% sure. I'll have to research those.

Well Buddhism did grow out of Hinduism originally
They’re sort of like siblings

Yes.

Not too familiar with Buddhist beliefs, unfortunately. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us both. But it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the concepts are similar

Looks like they are.

Yes interpretations will vary.
The variations that arise are very interesting to learn about

Ehh kind of?
Think of it like this.
Christianity is technically an offshoot of Judaism.
Lord Jesus was born a Jew after all, was He not?
But the end “results” are fairly different between the two, would you agree?
They are two distinct religions at the end of the day.

I like the fact you used the word "technically".
Yes. Technically it is viewed that way.

Yes Hindus have undergone a lot of “growing up” through the ages. So to speak lol

Well, if one doesn't grow at all, it's a cause for concern. You'd begin to wonder, "What's wrong with that child?"
Growing down is even more of a concern.

 

[nPeace]

The Hindu Moksha and Buddhist Nirvana is very much the same. Moksha means emerging with the infinite while Nirvana means dissolution into the emptiness which is the basis of all samsara.

It is like saying a glass is half full or half empty. It is a matter of interpretation.

The extinction of the individual ego, made up by his strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions, results in enlightenment, or Moksha/Nirvana. When that which is false is removed, the truth obviously is revealed on its own.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you said here?

Is this in agreement with what you are saying?
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

Can you elaborate some more, especially on the last sentence?

 

[Muffled]

Asking a question based on a subject which seems to have come up in another thread, my question is....

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives?

If yes, when you speak of "improvement", could you define what it is in this particular context?

I believe it does not. It only provides an opportunity.

 

[Muffled]

No, you can improve or get worse imo.

I believe it is the law of inertia. Things going in a direction tend to continue in that direction unless there is an intervention.

 

[Muffled]

"improving" can really only be defined in relation to some sort of target or goal...various systems of belief about reincarnation/transmigration/whatever you want to call it have different ideas about the target or goal of the process...

but as @The Hammer suggests, I agree that one can make progress or regress...or just hold even...

I believe as a Christian there is no goal intended. Life is a blessing from God and has always intended to be so.

 

[SomeRandom]

Seems your understanding is in agreement with mine.
This is what I was saying earlier. "...it's a cycle of progress and regress.
If it's all progress, however, one must ask the question... What does that lead to?
Imagine getting a soul that has reached a perfect state, but you die, everytime, to return and get that soul, again... and again... and again..."
...and I am not even or Hindu, or Indian belief systems. Lol.

Oh we’ll claim you yet my friend

That depends on which """Abrahamic""" religion.
You must remember, every Jew in history claims Abraham is their father. Claims are a dime a dozen.

Fair enough

Remember too, that doctrines were borrowed from other traditions, and mixed with those taught through Moses, and the greater Moses - Jesus Christ. So that even today, so-called Christianity has adopted the belief in the immortality of the soul.

Indeed as Mahatma Gandhi claimed, there is as many religions as there are people
(Probably paraphrased lol.)
But that’s the truth. Even asking religions “of the book” their interpretations of the divine widely vary, even within specific sects. I think we’re all working from a mishmash of sorts lol

That's where the doctrine of eternal Hellfire, taught first (first to profess Christianity after the apostolic age) by the Roman Catholics, stems.
Immortality of the soul is not a Biblical teaching, and was not taught by Abraham, nor Moses... Nor Jesus, and his apostles.
They taught that death was the end of life, and the only hope of living again was by resurrection.

I mean, I can respect such a teaching. Contrary to popular belief, Hinduism also has a hellfire teaching, albeit not eternal. Some of the more wicked souls enter such a “purgatory” if you like, as a sort of cleansing process for their souls. So as to attain heaven in the long run. Kind of like Purgatory in a way
If one is inclined to like Catholicism (as is my understanding. Do correct me if I’m wrong)

Some people try to support the teaching of immortality of the soul, by using Jesus illustration of the Rich man and Lazarus.
However, they ignore scriptures such as Ezekiel 18:4, and Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:17.
These clearly teach that the soul dies. It cannot be immortal if it dies. I'm sure you agree.

I don’t. Coming from a tradition that claims the soul is forever immortal. But perhaps I can offer a compromise?
Jesus’ Divine gift to us was immortal life in Heaven or the Kingdom of Heaven.
Perhaps this is merely a mistranslation?

Attaining everlasting life is being given life that is sustained by the souce of life - God. Unless one is given a life that is self-sustainable - that is, immortal.

God grants us many things. Immortality among them. Perhaps some folks just saw immortality as something that occurred earlier in the cycle of human life?

That's different to being given an immortal soul, but still being subject to death.
The difference is that once given immortality, one can never die. They are not given a soul. They are spirit beings, and do not depend on anything to sustain their life.

I think Hindus largely consider the soul as something entirely seperate to the human host. Meaning the soul itself can never die but the body it inhabits at any given time can die in an instant
As is my understanding

There are mortals who also will gain everlasting life, but their living forever is dependent on staying 'connected' to God - the source of life... being obedient and faithful.

Hindus likewise consider this an important process. Though we differ on our lifetime goals, as it were. I think you and I would largely agree that a person’s life purpose is to obey and serve our God. He is our master and we are but His servants
That we differ in our particular practice is what actually divides us. That’s all
But our end goals are the same. I can only hope you and I can come to a compromise as to our purpose in life. To serve the almighty to the best of our ability
If nothing else.
I hold no ill will towards you, my friend

No need to apologize... even if you are incorrect. Nothing is wrong with asking questions, or making a statement based on one's understanding.
Sadly, many get offended when questions put their teachings in a bad light. However, I appreciate persons assumptions... even if misinformed, because it's their understanding, and I am happy to correct them... if need be.

I can agree. Though I hasten to add the amendment (I’m blanking on the actual word I wanted to use lol) that all of us have different understandings of the divine instructions given to us. Perhaps that is also affected by language translations?
You and I differ on the specifics, but likely agree on the more broad terms of our instructions to serve the Almighty Lord

That's the way I understand it works.
Then they die... again. Then get another afterlife... again. Then they die... again.
It's an endless cycle. Isn't that how it goes?

Kind of? As is my understanding
The soul goes through an endless process of rebirth and death. The person it attaches to is not so lucky lol. They die ultimately and that’s it
If that’s what you thought it meant, then we agree lol

Yes, that's what I understand too. Different interpretations... like in all belief systems.
Even scientists have different interpretation.

Wholeheartedly agree

Seems that is similar in """Christianity""" today, as well.

You may well be right in that assessment
To be honest

Right. Exactly what I was thinking.
You were stardust. You return to stardust.
Not very comforting.

So we agree on the true interpretation of most Hindus, Buddhists, and many other Indian religions.
I believe some New Age religions incorporate some of the same beliefs, but not 100% sure. I'll have to research those.


Yes.


Looks like they are.


I like the fact you used the word "technically".
Yes. Technically it is viewed that way.

Yes. We likely agree on this matter

Well, if one doesn't grow at all, it's a cause for concern. You'd begin to wonder, "What's wrong with that child?"
Growing down is even more of a concern.

I wholeheartedly agree with this