Reincarnation

[nPeace]

Oh we’ll claim you yet my friend

As they say... When hell freezes over.

I mean, I can respect such a teaching. Contrary to popular belief, Hinduism also has a hellfire teaching, albeit not eternal. Some of the more wicked souls enter such a “purgatory” if you like, as a sort of cleansing process for their souls. So as to attain heaven in the long run. Kind of like Purgatory in a way
If one is inclined to like Catholicism (as is my understanding. Do correct me if I’m wrong)

Yes. Catholics borrowed that doctrine - Purgatory.
It's nowhere to be found in the Bible.

I don’t. Coming from a tradition that claims the soul is forever immortal. But perhaps I can offer a compromise?
Jesus’ Divine gift to us was immortal life in Heaven or the Kingdom of Heaven.
Perhaps this is merely a mistranslation?

God's gift to the faithful chosen ones. Not to us.

I think Hindus largely consider the soul as something entirely seperate to the human host. Meaning the soul itself can never die but the body it inhabits at any given time can die in an instant
As is my understanding

That's correct.

Hindus likewise consider this an important process. Though we differ on our lifetime goals, as it were. I think you and I would largely agree that a person’s life purpose is to obey and serve our God. He is our master and we are but His servants
That we differ in our particular practice is what actually divides us. That’s all
But our end goals are the same. I can only hope you and I can come to a compromise as to our purpose in life. To serve the almighty to the best of our ability
If nothing else.
I hold no ill will towards you, my friend

We can disagree. Nothing wrong with that.
No need to hate or fight each other because of that.
My desire is to help. Not harm, but my love for you won't allow me to compromise.
It moves me to encourage you to see the need to consider the fact that God is not a God of disorder, or confusion, but peace. Hence, he cannot be in agreement with the morass of all these conflicting doctrines in religion.
Someone else is.

Which means we cannot expect to get that gift of life, if we try to mix the false with the truth.
However, this is based on the Bible, which is different to Hindu teachings. So, I don't expect us to agree.
That will only happen if you study the Bible, and accept it as it truly is - the word of God.

I can agree. Though I hasten to add the amendment (I’m blanking on the actual word I wanted to use lol) that all of us have different understandings of the divine instructions given to us. Perhaps that is also affected by language translations?
You and I differ on the specifics, but likely agree on the more broad terms of our instructions to serve the Almighty Lord

It's the confusion sowed by the wicked one. A deliberate effort on their part to lead us along any path that leads away from God. That is the purpose of there being so many religions. - Matthew 13:24-30
Those paths do not lead to life.

Kind of? As is my understanding
The soul goes through an endless process of rebirth and death. The person it attaches to is not so lucky lol. They die ultimately and that’s it
If that’s what you thought it meant, then we agree lol

I think you mean the person dies. Or did you mean the soul.
In the Bible, the soul is the person, and so, when the person dies, the soul dies... which means the soul is not immortal, according to the Bible.
Is that your understanding?

 

[SomeRandom]

As they say... When hell freezes over.

Lol oh well
Maybe next time, eh?

Yes. Catholics borrowed that doctrine - Purgatory.
It's nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Interesting. The Catholics I know lays quite the Bible when it’s mentioned. Probably their own version

God's gift to the faithful chosen ones. Not to us.

Fair enough

That's correct.


We can disagree. Nothing wrong with that.
No need to hate or fight each other because of that.
My desire is to help. Not harm, but my love for you won't allow me to compromise.
It moves me to encourage you to see the need to consider the fact that God is not a God of disorder, or confusion, but peace. Hence, he cannot be in agreement with the morass of all these conflicting doctrines in religion.
Someone else is.

I don’t see God as a being of disorder and confusion. He is for peace and tranquility
Seems like you’re already too overly worried about me.

Which means we cannot expect to get that gift of life, if we try to mix the false with the truth.

That is your teaching. I respectfully disagree. But that’s okay.
You and I can still eat Christmas pudding together in peace
(Well I’m Australian so we BBQ all our meals but still lol.)

However, this is based on the Bible, which is different to Hindu teachings. So, I don't expect us to agree.
That will only happen if you study the Bible, and accept it as it truly is - the word of God.

Fair enough.
If it makes you feel any better my family was raised in a church. Granted they’re mostly Catholics so perhaps not lol
But I grew up reading the Holy Bible.
Albeit a rather “liberal” translation, as it were. Or at least that’s what I strongly suspect

It's the confusion sowed by the wicked one. A deliberate effort on their part to lead us along any path that leads away from God. That is the purpose of there being so many religions. - Matthew 13:24-30
Those paths do not lead to life.

That’s Timothy’s opinion, in my view.
I must respectfully disagree with him, but no hate

I think you mean the person dies. Or did you mean the soul.
In the Bible, the soul is the person, and so, when the person dies, the soul dies... which means the soul is not immortal, according to the Bible.
Is that your understanding?

Yes according to my understanding is that the body dies but the soul lives on in perpetuity

 

[Secret Chief]

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you said here?

Is this in agreement with what you are saying?
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

Can you elaborate some more, especially on the last sentence?

If I wanted to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses online I would seek out a Jehovah's Witnesses website such as the one you have used here. If one wants to take a look at Buddhism I would suggest a Buddhism website might be appropriate; perhaps this one:

- Lion’s Roar: Buddhist Wisdom for Our Time

 

[nPeace]

Lol oh well
Maybe next time, eh?

Next time??? You mean hell will freeze over!?

I don’t see God as a being of disorder and confusion. He is for peace and tranquility
Seems like you’re already too overly worried about me.

...but... but... You accept all religions as leading to God.

Isn't that accepting disorder, and confusion - disunity, instead of peace?
Overly worried. That's an understatement. I'm really worried.

That is your teaching. I respectfully disagree. But that’s okay.
You and I can still eat Christmas pudding together in peace
(Well I’m Australian so we BBQ all our meals but still lol.)

I don't do Christmas. I read in the Bible, that you can't be feeding at the table of the true God, and the table of demons. God doesn't like that. (1 Corinthians 10:20-22)

Fair enough.
If it makes you feel any better my family was raised in a church. Granted they’re mostly Catholics so perhaps not lol

Oh. My intestines. Ow.
As you can see, no, it doesn't make me feel better.
Why do you think I would feel better about that?

But I grew up reading the Holy Bible.
Albeit a rather “liberal” translation, as it were. Or at least that’s what I strongly suspect
That would not make me feel better. Why would I feel better, your being

Reading and studying are two completely different things... but you know this, of course.

That’s Timothy’s opinion, in my view.
I must respectfully disagree with him, but no hate

Timothy? No. That's the Lord. He said it.
See what I mean about studying, as opposed to reading?

Yes according to my understanding is that the body dies but the soul lives on in perpetuity

Right. So that's different to what the Bible says. The soul does not keep on living. It dies.

You know A cannot be A, and yet not A, right?
Either the soul dies, or it does not. Either the soul is immortal, or it is not.
The soul cannot die, and yet not die. Both statements cannot be true.
Do you see then that there is confusion, and disorder - disunity?

Since God is not a God of disorder, then he cannot accept both teachings.
He does not accept the one that isn't true. Agreed?

Now, this is only one of many doctrines.
Suppose we take all the doctrines and put them together. The confusion is dizzying.

Surely, you would not want a friend to be a part of that. Would you?

 

[nPeace]

If I wanted to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses online I would seek out a Jehovah's Witnesses website such as the one you have used here. If one wants to take a look at Buddhism I would suggest a Buddhism website might be appropriate; perhaps this one:

- Lion’s Roar: Buddhist Wisdom for Our Time

Thanks.
I wasn't interested looking at Buddhism. I was interested in your understanding on the subject you commented on. Well, not you, but the person I asked... but you can fill in, if you like.
I could read that webpage, and it would not tell me what every Buddhist believes.
I think you know this, as Buddhists are not pinned to any one belief.

If you are saying the information I posted is wrong, I'd be interested in learning where I can read that all Buddhist agree on what's written there.

 

[SomeRandom]

Next time??? You mean hell will freeze over!?

Well perhaps I’ve been sneaking some slushies (frozen drinks) to the devil on the side. Ever think of that?



(this is in jest for the record.)

But still, stranger things can happen eh?

...but... but... You accept all religions as leading to God.

Isn't that accepting disorder, and confusion - disunity, instead of peace?
Overly worried. That's an understatement. I'm really worried.

Fair enough
Well see I grew up in a household that venerated a Saint known collectively as Shirdi Sai. Which isn’t exactly orthodox Hinduism if you get me? lol
Sai taught from both the Islam sacred texts and Hindu sacred texts
Indeed people were reportedly astonished to witness those in his congregation living in absolute peace. Considering they were Hindu and Muslim.
And…well let’s just say those two groups didn’t always get along in history. To put it mildly. Yikes!!

For reference
Sai Baba of Shirdi - Wikipedia

Yes I am a universalist. Yes I recognise that the various religions teach very distinct and different outcomes. I recognise this.
But I do not think there should be such conflict between religious groups
We are all trying our best to live good lives in service to our lords

What can I say? Despite myself, I’m an eternal optimist! lol

So feel free to worry over me all you like. As long as that comes with some friendly BBQ visits

I don't do Christmas. I read in the Bible, that you can't be feeding at the table of the true God, and the table of demons. God doesn't like that. (1 Corinthians 10:20-22)

Interesting
Can I ask, what faction or I guess sect of Christianity do you belong to?
I know Jehovahs Witnesses don’t celebrate Christmas but I don’t want to be presumptuous.

Regardless you’re always welcome at our dinner table. No celebration required

Hospitality is something my family holds very sacred indeed.

Oh. My intestines. Ow.
As you can see, no, it doesn't make me feel better.
Why do you think I would feel better about that?

Haha Fair enough

Reading and studying are two completely different things... but you know this, of course.

I do indeed

I’m an enigma, what can I say?

Timothy? No. That's the Lord. He said it.
See what I mean about studying, as opposed to reading?

My apologies. Whenever this scripture is quoted to me or I’ve read it, it says that it’s from Timothy quoting the Lord. You clearly have a different understanding than the one I have. That’s fair

Right. So that's different to what the Bible says. The soul does not keep on living. It dies.

Well that is according to your Holy Scripture
And that’s perfectly fine
Hindus, you must understand, don’t always rely on scripture the same way Christians do. It’s not that we disrespect or disregard our holy scriptures. It’s just that we’re taught to find our own spirituality and not rely on written words by themselves
But if that’s what brings you your inner peace, I will not object. I’m not trying to denigrate or insult your spirituality at all
Please don’t think I am

You know A cannot be A, and yet not A, right?
Either the soul dies, or it does not. Either the soul is immortal, or it is not.
The soul cannot die, and yet not die. Both statements cannot be true.
Do you see then that there is confusion, and disorder - disunity?

I said that we acknowledge the soul (or “atman”) is always immortal. Not the human such a soul resides in
I do apologise if that was unclear in my posts

But in Hindu understanding (as I understand it) the soul itself never dies, ever
The person it inhabits dies though. That’s the difference
I was under the impression that Christianity accepted such an pretence? The soul itself having everlasting life
Indeed that’s why Heaven and Hell exists, does it not?
That through Lord Jesus’ glorious sacrifice, we may live in eternal bliss in the Kingdom of Heaven. Is this not the case? Have I been mislead by a false teaching by Christians quoting scripture to me all these years?

Since God is not a God of disorder, then he cannot accept both teachings.
He does not accept the one that isn't true. Agreed?

God is beyond our mere human understanding of comprehension. He is above our knowledge and above everything we can ever comprehend.
It matters little that neither one of us may fully understand these seemingly contradictory notions. God in his infinite wisdom and understanding can accept both happily. At least I think so
I think God being the infinite divine being that he is would be above such petty human grievances. Do you disagree?
It’s fine by me if you do. I have no issue with that. I’m merely asking

That might vex you and I apologise.

Now, this is only one of many doctrines.
Suppose we take all the doctrines and put them together. The confusion is dizzying.

Surely, you would not want a friend to be a part of that. Would you?

I would welcome you as a friend, even now.
Regardless
Indeed the varying doctrines and their conclusions vex our finite moral brains, That I do not deny for a second
However, lacking in capacity as they are, I do not think an immortal being with infinite resources and infinite understanding would be above such vexations as us.
But that’s just me

 

[ajay0]

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you said here?

The Hindu Moksha, Buddhist Nirvana and Sufi Fana all signify the same state wherein the egoic 'I' is annihilated resulting in nondual perception.

The egoic 'I' or lower self based on limited identities and our cravings and aversions, is what results in our dualistic perception and its affinity for conflict. With the extinction of the lower self (through meditation or total love or spiritual exercises) our conditioned outlook also ceases .

"Inner work is also about having deep, concentrated meditation, the sort that burns our impurities. When we return to a purer state of being, we will have fewer differences and fewer conflicts." ~ Sister Aruna Ladva, Brahmakumaris

Is this in agreement with what you are saying?
Buddhist texts say that it is impossible to describe Nirvana or explain but can only be experienced. It is not a heaven where one goes after death but an attainment that is within the reach of all, here and now. The word itself is said to mean “blowing out, extinguishing.” Thus, some define Nirvana as cessation of all passion and desire; an existence free from all sensory feelings, such as pain, fear, want, love, or hate; a state of eternal peace, rest, and changelessness. Essentially, it is said to be the cessation of individual existence.

Yeah, it is expounding on the same subject.

Can you elaborate some more, especially on the last sentence?

It is not the 'individual existence' that is annihilated, but more precisely the obliteration is of the egoic outlook or egoic 'I' or lower self that considers itself separate from the rest of existence, and obscures the natural state of the Self or Buddha nature or Baqaa.

The egoic 'I' with its psychological likes and dislikes, cravings for pleasure and aversion for pain, is considered as a falsehood which has misery and conflict as its constant companions.

 

[sayak83]

I am answering from an understanding of what Reincarnation is, and not what I believe, since Reincarnation is not a true teaching of Christianity, and falls into the category with other false doctrines.

Reincarnation does not necessarily imply an improvement across the person's various different lives, since according to the teaching of reincarnation, a person's life course determines the life they will be reincarnated.
So, say the person does not live "well enough", when they die, according to the teaching, they will be reincarnated as a lesser life, which means if they are reincarnated as a giraffe, they wil die as a giraffe, and if they are a giraffe that is "gentle", they may return as a... I don't know... but say they did return as a human again...

As you can see, it's a cycle of progress and regress.
If it's all progress, however, one must ask the question... What does that lead to?
Imagine getting a soul that has reached a perfect state, but you die, everytime, to return and get that soul, again... and again... and again...

How does that make sense?
I guess it's not supposed to make sence, since it's undirected.
I think the belief was based on man's idea that everything must be a cycle.

Indian philosophers formulated an elaborate belief system around a cycle of rebirths based on the law of cause and effect, or Karma.

REINCARNATION: Many view existence as an endless cycle of life, death, and rebirth. They believe that the good or bad they experience now is the result of events in a previous life.

One Hindu who believed this, said...
“The teaching of reincarnation did not make sense to me. Animals do not worship, so if for some reason you are reincarnated into an animal to pay for your sins, how do you rectify matters and progress from that state?” - A former Hindu in South Africa

You have two questions.

First, what happens to a soul who has perfected itself. Firstly the soul will not retain its identity as an isolated being but will become part of the holistic Supreme Self. Second, The soul will have two choices (free choice in this case, since it is no longer bound by any action at all). Either it chooses to merge itself and hence become the unmanifested ground of Being, Brahman in Hindu terminology. Or it can retain a personal form and continue to act as personified manifestation of Brahman (a supreme God with form also called Saguna Brahman) to oversee the creative aspects of Brahman in the universe. In that form it continues to perform action in an unattached manner for the good of all beings.

Second:-
Animals (even humans) do not require to worship. All nonenlightened beings (even bacteria) act through a mix of three qualities. The quality of instinctive rote ingrained habits without reflection (tamas); the quality of perseverance for desire fulfillment (hunting, reproduction, territory increase etc) called rajas; and the quality of action through reflective knowledge, moral principles and wisdom (satva). Single celled organisms and plants have more of tamas with a little of rajas, animals have tamas but also a lot of rajas and a bit of satva, humans have less tamas but significant amount of rajas and satva, then we can go to the lesser gods who have no tamas at all but quite a lot of satva and a bit of rajas. These are the created beings (called children of Brahma). Then we have Brahman in personified form who transcends the three natures. Notice that each state of consciousness is followed by another group with a slightly higher or lower state of being. During the many cycles of life as soon as it is seen that the balance of action is such that the being is no longer fit for its class, he/she gets promoted or demoted by the consequences of its actions. We all know who have pets that animals have personalities (including fish) and this is true to some extent for plants as well. Whether we recognise it or not the actions in its three flavors drive the being from one state to the other in this journey (it is not a cycle but a journey with an end point).

 

[Brian2]

You have two questions.

First, what happens to a soul who has perfected itself. Firstly the soul will not retain its identity as an isolated being but will become part of the holistic Supreme Self. Second, The soul will have two choices (free choice in this case, since it is no longer bound by any action at all). Either it chooses to merge itself and hence become the unmanifested ground of Being, Brahman in Hindu terminology. Or it can retain a personal form and continue to act as personified manifestation of Brahman (a supreme God with form also called Saguna Brahman) to oversee the creative aspects of Brahman in the universe. In that form it continues to perform action in an unattached manner for the good of all beings.

Second:-
Animals (even humans) do not require to worship. All nonenlightened beings (even bacteria) act through a mix of three qualities. The quality of instinctive rote ingrained habits without reflection (tamas); the quality of perseverance for desire fulfillment (hunting, reproduction, territory increase etc) called rajas; and the quality of action through reflective knowledge, moral principles and wisdom (satva). Single celled organisms and plants have more of tamas with a little of rajas, animals have tamas but also a lot of rajas and a bit of satva, humans have less tamas but significant amount of rajas and satva, then we can go to the lesser gods who have no tamas at all but quite a lot of satva and a bit of rajas. These are the created beings (called children of Brahma). Then we have Brahman in personified form who transcends the three natures. Notice that each state of consciousness is followed by another group with a slightly higher or lower state of being. During the many cycles of life as soon as it is seen that the balance of action is such that the being is no longer fit for its class, he/she gets promoted or demoted by the consequences of its actions. We all know who have pets that animals have personalities (including fish) and this is true to some extent for plants as well. Whether we recognise it or not the actions in its three flavors drive the being from one state to the other in this journey (it is not a cycle but a journey with an end point).

How does a plant or singled cell organism progress?

 

[sayak83]

How does a plant or singled cell organism progress?

Because plants have individual personalities as well
Consistent individual variation in plant communication: do plants have personalities? - Oecologia

Such a sensitive flower: do plants really have personalities?

There is significant individuated variations on how individuals of a species (even plants) respond to identical events and that is the variation that leads to progress or regress .
While research has not yet looked at individual differences in single celled life as they are not so well understood or easily observable in natural surroundings anyways, but there is no reason to that this fact extends to the simplest of living things. Even the simplest living thing is a hypercomplex individual entity and differ from each other on how they act and respond to things around them. That is karma after all.

 

[Brian2]

Because plants have individual personalities as well
Consistent individual variation in plant communication: do plants have personalities? - Oecologia

Such a sensitive flower: do plants really have personalities?

There is significant individuated variations on how individuals of a species (even plants) respond to identical events and that is the variation that leads to progress or regress .
While research has not yet looked at individual differences in single celled life as they are not so well understood or easily observable in natural surroundings anyways, but there is no reason to that this fact extends to the simplest of living things. Even the simplest living thing is a hypercomplex individual entity and differ from each other on how they act and respond to things around them. That is karma after all.

The idea that plants and single celled animals' responses are in any way related to morality is something hard to accept. That would mean that there would be no karma for them surely.

 

[syo]

Does reincarnation necessarily imply an improvement

No.

 

[sayak83]

The idea that plants and single celled animals' responses are in any way related to morality is something hard to accept. That would mean that there would be no karma for them surely.

Morality and karma are different. As noted earlier, karma is associated with the three qualities which are more general than moral ideas of good and bad.

 

[Brian2]

Morality and karma are different. As noted earlier, karma is associated with the three qualities which are more general than moral ideas of good and bad.

It seems to me that if the qualities are not connected to any choices made then karma looses it's meaning as the result of what we have done.

karma
/ˈkɑːmə,ˈkəːmə/

noun

1. (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
   • INFORMAL
     good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions.

 

[sayak83]

It seems to me that if the qualities are not connected to any choices made then karma looses it's meaning as the result of what we have done.

karma
/ˈkɑːmə,ˈkəːmə/

noun

1. (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.
   • INFORMAL
     good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one's actions.

Choices are made by animals and plants too. But the actions chosen are differentiated in terms of Tamasic, Rajasic or Sattvik rather than in moral terms. The realm of morality is primarily for humans, gods etc who are self conscious. But a tiger mother who takes extra care of her babies compared to other tiger mothers or is a better hunter accrues better karmic actions within the rajasic types of actions. Even a plant which uses the resources available to it more efficiently and grows better or develops better fruits and flowers than other plants of the same species accrues better karmic actions within the tamasic types of actions.
While most religious texts understandably talk about human actions and their consequences, the fact that all actions, even those of animals and other living beings, are also established within the ambit of karma is noted everywhere.
Here is an interesting study that shows that even genetically identical fish have strong and distinct individuality and behavioral variation from day 1 of their lives which reinforce over their lifetimes. Animals and plants and even micro-organisms are not pre-programed machines only, they have innate individuality which also influences how they act and it is these that karma works on.
The emergence and development of behavioral individuality in clonal fish | Nature Communications

Behavioral individuality is a ubiquitous phenomenon in animal populations, yet the origins and developmental trajectories of individuality, especially very early in life, are still a black box. Using a high-resolution tracking system, we mapped the behavioral trajectories of genetically identical fish (Poecilia formosa), separated immediately after birth into identical environments, over the first 10 weeks of their life at 3 s resolution. We find that (i) strong behavioral individuality is present at the very first day after birth, (ii) behavioral differences at day 1 of life predict behavior up to at least 10 weeks later, and (iii) patterns of individuality strengthen gradually over developmental time. Our results establish a null model for how behavioral individuality can develop in the absence of genetic and environmental variation and provide experimental evidence that later-in-life individuality can be strongly shaped by factors pre-dating birth like maternal provisioning, epigenetics and pre-birth developmental stochasticity.

 

[Brian2]

Choices are made by animals and plants too. But the actions chosen are differentiated in terms of Tamasic, Rajasic or Sattvik rather than in moral terms. The realm of morality is primarily for humans, gods etc who are self conscious. But a tiger mother who takes extra care of her babies compared to other tiger mothers or is a better hunter accrues better karmic actions within the rajasic types of actions. Even a plant which uses the resources available to it more efficiently and grows better or develops better fruits and flowers than other plants of the same species accrues better karmic actions within the tamasic types of actions.
While most religious texts understandably talk about human actions and their consequences, the fact that all actions, even those of animals and other living beings, are also established within the ambit of karma is noted everywhere.
Here is an interesting study that shows that even genetically identical fish have strong and distinct individuality and behavioral variation from day 1 of their lives which reinforce over their lifetimes. Animals and plants and even micro-organisms are not pre-programed machines only, they have innate individuality which also influences how they act and it is these that karma works on.
The emergence and development of behavioral individuality in clonal fish | Nature Communications

Evolution sort of sounds like a vehicle or tool of karma with that approach to plants and animals, but the plants and animals which survive better because of their "actions" are benefiting their descendants more than themselves probably.

 

[sayak83]

Evolution sort of sounds like a vehicle or tool of karma with that approach to plants and animals, but the plants and animals which survive better because of their "actions" are benefiting their descendants more than themselves probably.

The Rajasic quality is the quality associated with desire driven activity which includes activities that are aimed at achieving material success and success of progeny. It is a step up from Tamas which are activities from innate habits and reflexes.

You are correct. Evolutionary drives for success fits quite well within Hindu ideas of karma and guna (quality) theory of action.