Reincarnation?

[Moz]

Who told you that reincarnation , more precisely rebirth for evolving souls (punar-janma), and especially suffering, keeps happening forever?

The goal is liberation (moksha) from the cycle of birth and death.

That does not ,mean the jivAtmA (living entity) had just one birth. The multiple births, where the entity resumed where they left off in the last birth, are to give more time for spiritual maturity and progress.

Incarnation of God = avatAr. The difference is that God (Brahman) descends by Will. Whereas rebirth of evolving entities is involuntary.

However, generally the term reincarnation is used to mean rebirth.

Bhagvad GeetA
Arjun asks Krishna , will the yogi who cannot steady the mind or attain final emancipation/peace perish or regress?
BhagvAn (Shri Krishna) says:
BG 6.35 O strong-armed one,no doubt the mind can be unsteady and difficult to restrain. However, O son of Kunti, by the constant practice of Yoga (meditation..., focus on inner Divinity), detachment and renunciation, it is possible to control the mind.

BG 6.40 Dear PArth, son of PruthA, one [who has been practicing Yoga with devotion] never perishes or regresses in this life or the next. No one who works to uplift themselves spiritually ever regresses or devolves.

BG 6.41 The one who had left the practice of Divine Yoga incomplete in the last birth, either goes to Swarga (a heavenly abode) , enjoys the stay there and come back in a family of righteous, moral and rich or royal folks.
BG 6.42 If not, s/he is born in a family of Yogis. However such a birth is extremely rare.

BG 6.43 There, the values qualities and skills learned in the previous birth are carried over, and the yogi pursues (resumes) practice of Yoga with new enthusiasm, more than before.

*BG 6.45 However, the Yogi who studies this science very carefully, is sincere, persistent, due to strength attained through many previous births, attains full perfection, burns up all sins, and reaches the Highest state (i.e. does not return to the mortal world).

BG 6.46 The Yogi (one united with the Divine) is greater than the tapasvi (austere monk), and also greater than the Jnanis who are the spiritual scientists, knowers of Brahman', as well as those who focus on work. Therefore, Arjun, be a Yogi.

*BG 6.47 Among all Yogis, the one who connects their inner self to Me, and has loving devotion for Me, continuously devoted to Me with focus, is the highest.

Hi
Thank you for the response. When i said the game seems to go on forever i did not mean in the personal sense. I do realise that for the individual there must be an end point where they exit the ride into some sort of reward.

My point was more about the whole system. It seems to me that new souls are continually thrown into this meat grinder of human suffering forever so that they can follow the path as new souls are thrown into the grinder behind them. Evil and injustice seem to be part of the design and are just accomodated as lessons to be learnt because of past failings that you are unaware of in these thought systems rather than an enemy to be defeated.

The biblical perspective of Evil being a temporary aberation in the life of the universe that is sorted and decided within a set time paramaters is a much more compassionate and fulfilling worldview i think.

Peace

 

[ameyAtmA]

Hi
Thank you for the response. When i said the game seems to go on forever i did not mean in the personal sense. I do realise that for the individual there must be an end point where they exit the ride into some sort of reward.

My point was more about the whole system. It seems to me that new souls are continually thrown into this meat grinder of human suffering forever so that they can follow the path as new souls are thrown into the grinder behind them. Evil and injustice seem to be part of the design and are just accomodated as lessons to be learnt because of past failings that you are unaware of in these thought systems rather than an enemy to be defeated.

Hi
I see what you mean. Part of your post did sound like it was speaking at the universal level., but then when you said "suffering exists forever in this view" in response to Vinayak saying "the end" -- he was referring to end of samsaar for the individual, so I presumed you were too.


It is true that in the view of Hindu, Buddha , Jain and Sikh Dharma -- being in the world with a physical body entails suffering to some extent although a large part of the teaching focuses on how not not suffer while here, with change in outlook.
The Oneness of Brahman' only appears to project many entities and this apparent projection is the MAyA.

Part of the reason also, is that any entity who comes into the world involuntarily, has their own evolution to do. The good news is they have at their disposal a lot of wisdom , examples and history ([not] to be repeated) that their predecessors and ancients left behind.

They did not necessarily come into the mortal world due to evil.

 

[Yokefellow]

As a Christian, I believe in reincarnation.

Contrary to what the Church tells you, reincarnation is Biblical.

 

[Moz]

Hi
I see what you mean. Part of your post did sound like it was speaking at the universal level., but then when you said "suffering exists forever in this view" in response to Vinayak saying "the end" -- he was referring to end of samsaar for the individual, so I presumed you were too.


It is true that in the view of Hindu, Buddha , Jain and Sikh Dharma -- being in the world with a physical body entails suffering to some extent although a large part of the teaching focuses on how not not suffer while here, with change in outlook.
The Oneness of Brahman' only appears to project many entities and this apparent projection is the MAyA.

Part of the reason also, is that any entity who comes into the world involuntarily, has their own evolution to do. The good news is they have at their disposal a lot of wisdom , examples and history ([not] to be repeated) that their predecessors and ancients left behind.

They did not necessarily come into the mortal world due to evil.

Hi
Thanks. Sorry if i am imprecise this is not my area but if i may i'd like to pick your brain a bit.

Am i right i believing that the system has no end. New souls continually being generated to go through the process in an unending cycle?
Also was there a beginning to the cycle?
Was there ever a time when no evil existed?
Sorry if i'm not clear... it's like the Yin and yang symbol.... it seems that evil is a natural part of the cosmic order in these philosophies, you can't have one without the other. I come at this from a biblical perspective so my concepts of good and evil may differ. By evil i mean malevolence i suppose.

This may clarify what i'm after. There is a fantasy book series called the Wheel of Time which is a reincarnation cycle juxtaposed against a battle between and the Light and the Darkone which manifests in an unending cycle of climactic battles that reset the game and the cycle begins again.
This time though at the climax of the series, Rand AlThor the reincarnation of the perenial hero has the opportunity to END the cycle once and for all, to destroy the dark one and free the Wheel of any evil intent. In the final battle it is split into a number of scenarios which he then gets to choose between. When he experiences the reality where evil is destroyed the world is portrayed as grey and boring , he finally choses to continue the cycle by banishing the evil one but still allowing his presence to exist so that it could manifest in the future so as to drive the wheel through it eternal cycle.

It seems to me that the reincarnation philosophy needs something like the necessity of evil as well as good to drive the system. Is this a fair understanding or have i missed something fundamental in the belief?

Part of your post did sound like it was speaking at the universal level.
Personally i try to view everything at the Universal level. If there is a single sentient creature suffering anywhere in creation then the system is busted in my estimation. Again, and not meaning to preach but merely explain the difference in view, this is why the Biblical explanation of evil being a temporary aberation is very appealing to my sense of empathy.

They did not necessarily come into the mortal world due to evil
No but they were put here to experience evil or to struggle against evil to illuminate the good within or something along those lines ... is that close. A clarification if i am way off base would be appreciated i want to understand this stuff at least conceptually.
Sorry if there's a lot there please answer any points you wish it all helps.

Peace

P.s predecessors and ancients left behind.
I am also curious about the mathematics and why the billions of extra humans in the last 50 years or so and if this gets expanded into an interplanetary enterprise backwards into an endless past.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Lanbert was the highlander , wouldn't that be great?

Who was he?

 

[Apocolypse]

Who was he?

Waking up without even a coffee to drink , no money and a life's end . Today is the day of no mercy from me , so expect its now too late and your games are over .

 

[wizanda]

Possible?

Dr Ian Stevenson did peer reviewed studies into children with memories of past lifes.

There are many videos we can show of children with profound memories of past lifes validated, and there is past life regression therapy where people literally have data that can be assessed.

The evidence is undeniable that people come back, it is just religious superstitions that have blinded us to understanding it.

In both the Quran, and Bible it taught reincarnation, mankind removed the ideas.

In my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Waking up without even a coffee to drink , no money and a life's end . Today is the day of no mercy from me , so expect its now too late and your games are over .

Well you are forgive for whatever you think you want to say that could be seen as negative

 

[Apocolypse]

Dr Ian Stevenson did peer reviewed studies into children with memories of past lifes.

There are many videos we can show of children with profound memories of past lifes validated, and there is past life regression therapy where people literally have data that can be assessed.

The evidence is undeniable that people come back, it is just religious superstitions that have blinded us to understanding it.

In both the Quran, and Bible it taught reincarnation, mankind removed the ideas.

In my opinion.

Well today I'm not listening to weirdos talking garbage and hell shall, is coming today . I don't care about your excuses who did what . The death of the world you have caused .

 

[Apocolypse]

Well you are forgive for whatever you think you want to say that could be seen as negative

Full of garbage and lies , I'm a pow of mind control and you've lost control. The game is over today .

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well today I'm not listening to weirdos talking garbage and hell shall, is coming today . I don't care about your excuses who did what . The death of the world you have caused .

If you wish to belive so But you create your own suffering by being in a foul mood.

 

[Apocolypse]

If you wish to belive so But you create your own suffering by being in a foul mood.

No I haven't created my own suffering , they have created my suffering and today the suffering will be repaid in full when I tell these lovely people on this forum all about life .No rich pics from me , oh dear , some bodies in trouble..

 

[Spirit of Light]

No I haven't created my own suffering , they have created my suffering and today the suffering will be repaid in full when I tell these lovely people on this forum all about life .No rich pics from me , oh dear , some bodies in trouble..

Who are they that you talk about?

 

[Apocolypse]

Who are they that you talk about?

Well if I told you that , they would kill me .Is this an American forum or other ?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well if I told you that , they would kill me .Is this an American forum or other ?

Its an international forum for everyone who are interested in spirituality, Religion, Atheism or even political topics can be discussed

 

[Apocolypse]

Its an international forum for everyone who are interested in spirituality, Religion, Atheism or even political topics can be discussed

Cocaine super noodles mmmmmm!

International , American based ?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Cocaine super noodles mmmmmm!

International , American based ?

Maybe, that does not matter
Maybe your suffering comes from being reincarnated in to a life of trouble?

 

[Apocolypse]

Maybe, that does not matter
Maybe your suffering comes from being reincarnated in to a life of trouble?

Well my troubled life was over years ago when I grew up and stopped stealing cars for the fun of the ride. I was quite normal until I got attacked . They however really underestimated me as I have ESP and they told me things they hadn't meant to tell me . The world is mine , I created the world and all that is .

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well my troubled life was over years ago when I grew up and stopped stealing cars for the fun of the ride. I was quite normal until I got attacked . They however really underestimated me as I have ESP and they told me things they hadn't meant to tell me . The world is mine , I created the world and all that is .

Ah i see.

 

[Apocolypse]

Ah i see.

I see you too !