reincarnation differences

[anadi]

namaskar,

what are the differences in the doctrines of reincarnation in Vedic, Buddhist and Jain philosophies?
Do all agree that individual entities transmigrate through different bodies?
Once someone told me that reincarnation in buddhism is a bit different because they don't believe in individual souls, but that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[LuisDantas]

namaskar,

what are the differences in the doctrines of reincarnation in Vedic, Buddhist and Jain philosophies?
Do all agree that individual entities transmigrate through different bodies?
Once someone told me that reincarnation in buddhism is a bit different because they don't believe in individual souls, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Buddhism does not really have an individual as such to reincarnate or transmigrate, far as I can tell. Many of our core concepts directly challenge the notion - Anatta, Anicca, Interdependent Origination.

That does not stop Tibetan schools from having Phowa practices, but I can't say I understand why.

 

[anadi]

Buddhism does not really have an individual as such to reincarnate or transmigrate, far as I can tell. Many of our core concepts directly challenge the notion - Anatta, Anicca, Interdependent Origination.

That does not stop Tibetan schools from having Phowa practices, but I can't say I understand why.

So how does reincarnation happen(the buddhist way)? Don't we have individual karma? Or will I be suffering someone elses karma in a future life?.. I don't understand how it's supposed to work in a non-individual way

 

[LuisDantas]

So how does reincarnation happen(the buddhist way)?

I don't think it does. Rebirth is often mistaken for reincarnation, though. But it is basically an impersonal thing.

Don't we have individual karma?

We do, mainly because we have individual bodies and, to an extent, individual minds, so Karma ends up somewhat divided along the same lines. By my understanding, individuality isn't however an actual attribute of Karma, except perhaps by accident.

Or will I be suffering someone elses karma in a future life?..

We all suffer and inflict everyone else's Karma (alongside our own) on all lives, including the current one. It just turns out that some portions are more perceptible than others, and often perceived as somewhat more personal.

I don't understand how it's supposed to work in a non-individual way

Far as I can tell, there is no other way. Individuality is just too ilusory.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So how does reincarnation happen(the buddhist way)? Don't we have individual karma? Or will I be suffering someone elses karma in a future life?.. I don't understand how it's supposed to work in a non-individual way

There is no discernible separation concerning life and death. No physical or mental separations to be discerned.
The Buddhist "view" is of all things being interconnected and interrelated, thus no real transmigration concerning souls, karma, or whatever that applies, as there is really nothing actually separated to make such a distinguissment in the first place.

Life just rises/falls and not rise and falls. No individual karma exists in face it's continuous with no discernible separation which leads to the realisation of no real separation that needs or requires definition like that involving a soul.

 

[Aupmanyav]

^^^

So how does reincarnation happen(the buddhist way)? Don't we have individual karma? Or will I be suffering someone else's karma in a future life?.. I don't understand how it's supposed to work in a non-individual way

You need not worry. You are without atta. However, someone else may bear the results of your actions, be it a human or an animal. Now you know why ants are squashed.

Of course, you might be suffering because of the actions of somebody else of an earlier age. You got his 'karma bundle'. Then, as Luis said, there are your own karmas.

However, Buddha advised against dwelling on that, imponderables, will vex your mind. Whatever it is, follow the noble eight-fold path to escape sorrows.

 

[religion99]

namaskar,

what are the differences in the doctrines of reincarnation in Vedic, Buddhist and Jain philosophies?
Do all agree that individual entities transmigrate through different bodies?
Once someone told me that reincarnation in buddhism is a bit different because they don't believe in individual souls, but that doesn't make sense to me.

As far as Jainism is concerned , it believes that individual entities transmigrate through different bodies. Also , Jainism admits the existence of Karmic Dustlike particles to which each individual entity is bound to. New particles are acquired every instance according to good and bad acts you are doing. And when you die , these particles are tranformed to give you the fruits of your past action. This entire process is automatic and no intervention by a third entity ( God or any other ) is required for this to happen.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who made the rules? Can there be rules without a maker?

 

[LuisDantas]

Aup, what is that question referring to?

Also, I take it that your first post in this thread was talking about the Buddhist conception of karma? You mention anatta, after all.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am asking my Jain friend here - Religion99. I would welcome him to stay longer with us. We have no Jain members at the moment other than him.

 

[Stormcry]

namaskar,

what are the differences in the doctrines of reincarnation in Vedic, Buddhist and Jain philosophies?
Do all agree that individual entities transmigrate through different bodies?
Once someone told me that reincarnation in buddhism is a bit different because they don't believe in individual souls, but that doesn't make sense to me.

PranAm Anadi...

In Hinduism too, there's no reincarnation in real sense .. Reincarnation is said to be an illusion, it is exactly same as how you transform your existence of first consciousness into another consciousness in the dream.. So reincarnation doesn't happen. When mind leaves off the contact with the prana of body, the body is said to be dead and when it joins with the other body it's said to be a birth...

♥Hari Narayana♥

 

[George-ananda]

Once someone told me that reincarnation in buddhism is a bit different because they don't believe in individual souls, but that doesn't make sense to me.

I think this comes from a misinterpretation of anatta - no eternal individual soul. Anatta I feel is a correct teaching but does not preclude the existence of temporary individual souls that last for many lifetimes until nirvana is reached.

 

[Aupmanyav]

IMHO, Buddhist reincarnation is more complex than that.

 

[George-ananda]

IMHO, Buddhist reincarnation is more complex than that.

How do you think Buddhist reincarnation works then? I've yet to hear any other working model and I'd be curious to hear one.

I think the answer may be Buddhism doesn't address metaphysical speculation details.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is true. (about metaphysical speculation). Buddha said that the working of Karma is 'imponderable'. So in Buddhism there is no soul that lingers but karmas. Someone said it is like a ball hitting another ball and coming to rest, but the other ball continues the motion.

 

[George-ananda]

So in Buddhism there is no soul that lingers but karmas.

Buddha only said there is no eternal individual soul (anatta). This agrees with Advaita too by the way. Whether there is an ever-changing non-permanent astral body, soul body, etc. would be metaphysical speculation the Buddha was not keen on addressing.

Someone said it is like a ball hitting another ball and coming to rest, but the other ball continues the motion.

That many actions effect the future is obvious to all modes of thinking. The terms rebirth/reincarnation is obviously addressing a different point. Why does the term 'rebirth' exist in many Buddhist schools; certainly it is intended to mean more than 'your actions produce future events' or a much different term would have come into use methinks.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, I think "rebirth" is simply meant to remind that our responsibilities go beyond strictly personal boundaries. Interpreting it as if it were recincarnation-like is probably an undue exacerbation of the concept.

 

[George-ananda]

Actually, I think "rebirth" is simply meant to remind that our responsibilities go beyond strictly personal boundaries. Interpreting it as if it were recincarnation-like is probably an undue exacerbation of the concept.

If that's the case I would think a better term than 'rebirth' would have been chosen. Especially since reincarnation was a common belief in Buddha's part of the world.

 

[LuisDantas]

If that's the case I would think a better term than 'rebirth' would have been chosen. Especially since reincarnation was a common belief in Buddha's part of the world.

Lacking any background on the linguistic reality of that time and place, I can't really comment with any authority on which other words might have been chosen.

To the best of my knowledge the word used was probably "punabbhava" (Pali; Sanskrit: punarbhava) that roughly means "re-becoming", which I suppose can be interpreted either way depending on context and mainly on the expectations of those who use it.

Were there better words in Pali or Sanskrit to express either reincarnation or simple transcendence of personal responsibility? Were there reasons to either prefer or avoid them at the time? I wish I knew.

Truth is, I don't even know whether the teachings of Samsara in Hinduism were originally understood to be reincarnationist, or how well-established that idea was along the passing of centuries.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Multiple re-births are accepted by all Indian religions and the max. number is 8.4 million (Lakh Chaurasi). The number with Buddhists is even more - one is born anew every moment, which I think is scientifically correct - we change, even if a little bit, all the time. Buddha said 'karmas' float, Hindus said 'souls' float. But 'karmas' are not lost in any Indian religion, and with it the individual responsibility to engage in actions according to 'dharma'. May be I have rambled a bit.