reincarnation/afterlife without God?

[Ben Dhyan]

I know. But what has that to do with God?
You seem to be mixing up random religious ideas in a sort of muddled new-age melange.

Hmmm, what do you think Brahman is? All that is is God, or if you prefer, the expression of God. You are an expression of God, so is a flower, a star, find out what and who you really are and you will discover God. If your dharma is to realize what and who you are, you should realize that your karma must be brought to an end.
All that happens is cause and effect, without a cause, there is no movement, without movement, there can be no life, no experience. Brahman is not some idle spectator of reality, God is reality!

 

[firedragon]

Hmmm, what do you think Brahman is? All that is is God, or if you prefer, the expression of God. You are an expression of God, so is a flower, a star, find out what and who you really are and you will discover God. If your dharma is to realize what and who you are, you should realize that your karma must be brought to an end.
All that happens is cause and effect, without a cause, there is no movement, without movement, there can be no life, no experience. Brahman is not some idle spectator of reality, God is reality!

If God is creation itself, did he exist prior to creation or both came about simultaneously?

Please explain.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If God is creation itself, did he exist prior to creation or both came about simultaneously?

Please explain.

Creation is eternal, without beginning or end, only the material created things have beginnings and endings, births and deaths, whether they be galaxies, stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, etc..

 

[Twilight Hue]

My very first words were "The mind dies"

I think that part is true. The mind is the only thing that dies a true death imv.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think that part is true. The mind is the only thing that dies a true death imv.

It depends on what you mean by mind. If your mind is self identifying with your physical body at death, then yes. if otoh your mind's awareness is free from samsara at the death of the physical body, it is already liberated.

 

[firedragon]

Creation is eternal, without beginning or end, only the material created things have beginnings and endings, births and deaths, whether they be galaxies, stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, etc..

Is the Universe eternal? If it is, how is it a creation?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is the Universe eternal? If it is, how is it a creation?

To clarify, there is never an end to creation, only an end to a creation. The term 'creation' can mean the process of creating, and also that which has been created, ie., the form.. All forms have a beginning, and they will have an ending, but the underlying essence of which they were formed does not disappear, it is eternal. As to this universe as a form, if it had a beginning, it will have an ending, but the underlying essence of which the universal form is constituted is eternal.

Simple analogy, think of ice forms, the underlying essence of all ice forms is water, ice comes and goes but the water continues to exist.

 

[firedragon]

To clarify, there is never an end to creation, only an end to a creation. The term 'creation' can mean the process of creating, and also that which has been created,

Right. If it is eternally in the process of creation, there has to be a beginning. Logically. If creation is eternal, it is not creation. There was no creation. That means everything existed since forever. Which would mean creation existed with God forever, and God is not a creator.

Simple analogy, think of ice forms, the underlying essence of all ice forms is water, ice comes and goes but the water continues to exist.

But water emerged one day from another being. Are you saying water existed eternally in this analogy?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Right. If it is eternally in the process of creation, there has to be a beginning. Logically. If creation is eternal, it is not creation. There was no creation. That means everything existed since forever. Which would mean creation existed with God forever, and God is not a creator.

But water emerged one day from another being. Are you saying water existed eternally in this analogy?

No, there is no logical reason for the divine process of creation to have had a beginning, God is eternal and therefore the process of creation is eternal. It is only the physical manifestation that undergoes changes, ie., has births and deaths, beginnings and endings.

God is eternal, God is not separate from the process of creation, ie., God is within you, the creation, God is omnipresent, there is nowhere where God is not!

The simple analogy wrt water was just that, an analogy, not a claim that water did not have a beginning..

 

[firedragon]

No, there is no logical reason for the divine process of creation to have had a beginning

Its creation. So creation was never created?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Its creation. So creation was never created?

Ok, we may be having a language problem here. The concept of creation has two meanings, one is the process, ie., the creation process, the other is the creature or other form created.

So dealing with the first meaning, the creative process, creation, is eternal, it is not a form, it had no beginning. The second meaning, the created form, is not eternal and always has a beginning.

Creation (the Divine process) does not have a beginning, all things in existence (the manifestation) are created.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, we may be having a language problem here.

Yes I agree. That maybe. What is the word you are interchanging with creation? The Sanskrit word?

The concept of creation has two meanings, one is the process, ie., the creation process, the other is the creature or other form created.

So dealing with the first meaning, the creative process, creation, is eternal, it is not a form, it had no beginning. The second meaning, the created form, is not eternal and always has a beginning.

Creation (the Divine process) does not have a beginning, all things in existence (the manifestation) are created.

I get it. I understand your belief. I am addressing this from a logical point of view.

If creation is eternal, and God is eternal, God never created creation because both are eternal.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes I agree. That maybe. What is the word you are interchanging with creation? The Sanskrit word?

I get it. I understand your belief. I am addressing this from a logical point of view.

If creation is eternal, and God is eternal, God never created creation because both are eternal.

I am interchanging 'creative process' with 'creation' on the one hand, and 'created form' or 'form' or 'manifestation' with 'creation' in that context. No, I am not using any Sanskrit terminology.

God creates creation, the three are one, it is only the human mind that makes distinctions. God is one, everything that exists is a manifestation of God. God is omnipresent so it is logical that nothing exists anywhere that does not contain God's presence.

 

[firedragon]

I am interchanging 'creative process' with 'creation'

Thats not what I said ben d.

I am not using any Sanskrit terminology.

OK.

So the word used in the Rig Veda creation account is Srasthi right? So if you say this does not mean creation, then what does that mean?

What do you think about the creation account in Rig Veda?

 

[Twilight Hue]

It depends on what you mean by mind. If your mind is self identifying with your physical body at death, then yes. if otoh your mind's awareness is free from samsara at the death of the physical body, it is already liberated.

It's the ego that calls itself 'I" that dies a true death. Once it's gone, it's gone.

I think this is why we have no mental connection to any past life although life itself comes across as cyclic and repeatable minus the memories.

Like waves that continously rise and fall, for which it's ocean that carries the potential for more waves to rise and crest while staying as all water.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Then I misunderstood what you meant.

I am not aware of of the term rasthi in the Rig Veda.

I am not a student of the Rig Veda,

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's the ego that calls itself 'I" that dies a true death. Once it's gone, it's gone.

I think this is why we have no mental connection to any past life although life itself comes across as cyclic and repeatable minus the memories.

Like waves that continously rise and fall, for which it's ocean that carries the potential for more waves to rise and crest while staying as all water.

Yes I agree wrt the death of ego and past life memories, though the potential for past life memories does appear to exist in some circumstances.

The sequence of reincarnations though involve ever increasing realization of what and who we really in the context of absolute reality. What has been learnt in one life is not lost, but is the starting point in the next until the last when Buddhahood is realized, one is the ocean, and the water, and the waves, all is one. The principle is similar to the school system of going up in grades as we gain the prerequisite knowledge in one class to tackle a more difficult task one in the next.

 

[Secret Chief]

I don't see why reincarnation or an afterlife would need a god.

OTOH, I also don't see how reincarnation or an afterlife could possibly be real.

This.

 

[soulsurvivor]

If there were no God (or Gods) could a system of reincarnation still be in effect?

Could there still be an afterlife?

Or do such things require the existence of a God (or Gods)?

I don't see why not - most of the reincarnation cycle is maintained by the Law of Karma.

However, the fact remains that there do exist many Gods who manage the universe. For more information on the afterlife and reincarnation, see Heaven, Hell and the AfterLife

 

[Martin]

Assuming that reincarnation exists, I still haven't seen a coherent argument for a God being necessary for its operation.