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Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Tail Wagger
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    There seems zero indication by the gospels that Jesus survives. His reappearance is directly called a resurrection. The gospels say professional soldiers stab him in the side releasing a mixture of blood with water. They say when he dies the ground quakes, the sky is darkened, and people come out of graves. That is the opposite of claiming he doesn't die.

    If you would argue that he doesn't really die, then your path is to show that the gospels are not literal, and that is not a difficult case to make. I won't make the argument for you, but its not hard. How can Jesus and Israel both be called the Son of God by Isaiah as Matthew claims? How are they both the Son of God? How does Jesus have 2 different geneologies in 2 different gospels? Jews have been asking this for 1000 years, but you seem to ignore it and go for the most difficult argument.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "There seems zero indication by the gospels that Jesus survives. "

    I don't agree with one. Jesus was seen by many people mentioned in the Bible. This is a strong clue that Jesus survived. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe in Noah's flood or the Exodus or the grandeur of Solomon?
     
  4. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Tail Wagger
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    The gospels are using something I will call D13 Irony. In English we have a lot of brief ironic phrases that we use for jokes and to enliven conversation. We also have situational irony where the audience knows things that characters don't. Irony isn't considered dishonest, but its not literally true. The gospels also have a form of irony which we have no name for in English. Some users at RF have called it lying. Some have called it fiction. Its neither lying nor simple fiction. Its an ironic writing device which I will call Deteronomy 13 irony for lack of a better name. That's what the gospels are using.

    When it says Jesus is seen by many people after his resurrection its saying "This is written to Jews who will automatically disregard any claim based upon miracles and focus upon whether the ideas are a proper interpretation of Torah. The message is that you should make peace with the Romans. The message is that your temple has not been destroyed for the same reasons as last time. The message is that the temple has been destroyed to prepare for an expansion of the covenant to all people and a new era of freedom. The message is also this and that..." There are also implied similes. Jesus dies without having sinned, so the temple is destroyed not for having sin but for another purpose. It is a message written from Jews to Jews, not to you or to me who easily read it somewhat like if we are overhearing half of a telephone conversation.

    Gospels are very, very ancient documents with a very unusual writing style unfamiliar to us today. They are not what people think who just grab a New Testament from the drawer of a hotel. The way that they have been used in modern times is irresponsible.

    Whether Jesus is resurrected in the gospels is not even in question. They clearly claim he is resurrected, but they counter themselves in saying that its a reason to accept his testimony. It can't be a reason to accept his testimony. That would be wrong. Hence it can't be intended literally. There are many other indications, too, that its not meant literally. This is merely that which is plainest. Others are that the gospels clearly delineate alternative meanings for resurrection, namely that it equals repentance from evil.
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The gospels are using something I will call D13 Irony."

    Did Jesus tell it, please? If yes, please quote from Jesus.
    Regards
     
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Tail Wagger
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    I can only quote a few related teachings from the gospels, but Jesus does not directly quote the law instead requiring that people know it already. Then he alludes to it.

    Nathaniel one of the 12
    Here in John Jesus says something like it to Nathanael. Nathaniel in the story is clearly disregarding Deuteronomy 13. Jesus says Nathaniel will see something greater than a miracle: angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.

    Lazarus A and B

    Lazarus A
    Here is Jesus parable where Abraham concludes with a similar message: He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:31)

    Lazarus B
    In John chapter 11 Jesus raises a friend named Lazarus from the dead, however this changes no hearts.

    Believing without seeing is blessed:
    In John 20:29 we have this "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Brickjectivity said:
    The gospels are using something I will call D13 Irony. In English we have a lot of brief ironic phrases that we use for jokes and to enliven conversation. We also have situational irony where the audience knows things that characters don't. Irony isn't considered dishonest, but its not literally true. The gospels also have a form of irony which we have no name for in English. Some users at RF have called it lying. Some have called it fiction. Its neither lying nor simple fiction. Its an ironic writing device which I will call Deteronomy 13 irony for lack of a better name. That's what the gospels are using.
    "D13"

    So, one meant from D13 "Deuteronomy 13". Is it so, please?

    Regards
     
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