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Featured Reason for Jesus Death Explained

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Lots of people have this question.

    He willingly dies testifying against the sin within himself but in favor of the good within himself. This is explained by several NT writers. It is a mystical concept that argues that the gentile should be granted fellowship as if they were Jews. Whether you agree with that or not, that is what the death means.


    ***Late clarification: sin-nature within himself or that which could cause him to want to sin or any sort of human weakness within himself. I do not mean to imply he has personally transgressed or harmed anyone. I'm adding this, because I can see that many users think I am implying it in the OP. No, I do not mean Jesus has sinned or that he is dying to testify against any of his own actions.***
     
    #1 Brickjectivity, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    what is the question?



    so why didn't he just kill himself vs forgiving those who killed him?
     
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  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The good in him would have been destroyed. It would have been like throwing out the baby to save the bathwater. The argument is that the gentiles should be fellowshiped with rather than avoided. Its similar but not the same as the assimilation question many Jews face these days.
     
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Jesus Christ died for the same reasons everybody dies, except he was executed by curcifiction by the Romans for claiming to be the King of the Jews and rebellion against Roman authority. He lived to present the message of his Revelation.
     
    #4 shunyadragon, May 30, 2019
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  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so if someone else killed him, everything didn't get throwed out?
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is not an argument and sounds to me like a spurious claim. All of the parables Jesus speaks can be interpreted to be about whether Jews should fellowship gentiles. All of the NT writers argue for integration. Jesus own twelve disciples are as motley and unequal as possible. His baptism makes him a type of Elisha, and Elisha is a prophet against Israel and for the gentiles. Jesus whole life is an argument as are his apostles lives and each of his miracles. They all say this "Its time to fellowship the gentiles, and whomever will choose the path of peace is for us not against us."
     
  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    It is tied to symbolism of Sign of Jonah, aka the Temple Sleep, aka three day journey. Spirit leaves physical body (forced in this case) and visits with spiritual world then brought back into physical body, a person having the first hand experience and some get enlightened. Ancient mysteries.
     
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I consider this part of the reason he lived and not the reason he died. I did amend my previous post to include:

    Jesus Christ died because the Romans convicted him and crucified him for claiming to be the 'King of the Jews.' and rebellion against Rome.
     
    #8 shunyadragon, May 30, 2019
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    You disagree. That is Ok. You believe in the afterlife rather than a resurrection that is repentance. That is your choice. This is a different way of looking at things. This looking at a righteous life as the only life that matters and as your second life. To God it is no less important than any physical resurrection, but people are not fond of this as we prefer to go on breathing. I suggest you keep your opinion but also think about this one too!
     
  10. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    In the Islamic tradition and according to legends in India, he did not die on the cross. This to me does not change what is the central meaning: he took the suffering of all on his shoulders and suffered to cleanse the world and energize a forward movement.
     
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  11. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    I think resurrection is spiritual. Jesus is archetype of human who realized Christ within.
     
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  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is interesting and reminds me of this sticky: Mahayana Buddhism Overview
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus turning over the money tables at the Temple and talking about the "Kingdom" would very much impress the Romans to the point of deciding that it was time for him to go. Since he was nailed, versus tied to the cross, this seemingly indicates that it was more viewed as being a capital crime rather than a religious one.
     
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  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is a challenging comment, however the thread is about the purpose of his death. What sufferings do they say cleanse the world? Supposing there is no death of Jesus, what suffering do they refer to? The sufferings of Jesus listed in the gospels that I recall are: his testing in the wild, sufferings that teach him obedience which are alluded to but not described, his disagreement with his family and his suffering on the cross. He doesn't sound like someone who suffers more than other Jews of his time by that much. What cleanses the world?
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Why do you think Elisha was a prophet against the Jews and for Gentiles?
     
  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Obviously they had some reasons to want to kill him. Shouldn't he have been able to avoid Roman prosecution simply by running away? Why doesn't he save himself and avoid them?
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The story begins in 2 Kings. 2 Kings chapter 2 Elishah takes on Elijah's cloak, so he continues Elijah's ministry. As he is traveling by Bethel he curses some Bethel boys then proceeds on to Samaria. All of his life he protests against various kings of Israel. He likes Jehoshaphat king of Judah but not Joram king of Israel. Because of the famine (against Israel) Elisha takes refuge in Shunam, a famously evil city in the Bible. There he finds someone willing to take care of him and does things for her and her family rather than helping someone in Israel. He cures Naaman the Assyrian of leprosy. He allows Naaman the Syrian general to serve the LORD despite his bowing to an idol. He punishes Gahazi with a nasty family curse for taking payment from Naaman. In chapter 6 he causes the king of Israel to spare the soldiers belonging to the king of Aram. In chapter 8 he sends the Shunamite widow away to hide in Philistine, because he says the LORD is bringing a famine to Israel. The famine lasts 7 years. These are all representative of Elishah and what he does.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    This was 800 BC... The northern kingdom was prosperous and considered apostate.

    Shunam was just a tiny village north of Jezreel.
     
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  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Hard to say for sure, but I do believe it is likely that he felt he had a message that was more important than his own life. This wouldn't have been the first time someone did that nor would it be the last.

    I am not diminishing him by saying the above because his basic message of living out of the "law of love" definitely has resonated with so many over so many decades and still is meaningful today.
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I don't know all about the archeology. For purposes of Jesus death in the gospels, which is the star in the contention of his death, Elisha isn't popular in his own country; and this is used to compare him to Jesus who also is unpopular. See Luke 4:27. Elisha is unpopular + Jesus is unpopular, thus arguing Jesus is legitimate despite his unpopularity. This also adds to the main argument (of the gospels) that Jews should fellowship gentiles, receive the Kingdom of God there, to accept the kingdom was like seed that falling upon various kinds of soil rather than seed planted in carefully curated boxes.
     
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